Why what went around is not coming around

[Detlev]

A lot of cybernation rulers argue that the coalition known as "Karma" is no better than NPO if it dictates harsh terms to its enemies, and some even seem to argue this simply because of the war. Both assertions are nonsense.

What went around:

NPO plays a cut throat game. NPO slashes its way to the top and bullies to stay there. Two examples of its dirty play come to my mind: FAN and GPA. NPO violated its very own terms that it dictated to FAN and declared war again, and has held FAN in a state of war for ages in a naked power play. That planet bob sat and watched that and didn't do anything is revolting. GPA edited one of NPO's IO's posts on their boards. They were a little bit slow to respond to their own rogues aiding NPO's war enemies. It wasn't the first time that GPA was slow to react to something, but GPA never held the #1 spot before that and NPO needed to have it back. So the excuses for war started to flow (all because FAN made NPO bleed for its arrogance [o/ FAN btw]) and GPA was crushed for nothing. Oh and lets add another: GATO. Warred for a month before individual peace terms were offered. Viceroys, insane reps, perma and eternal ZI. NPO's record of brutality and hubris is long and clear.

What is coming around:

A member of a small alliance receives worthless intel about NPO from Blackstone. NPO bullies and pries. NPO and one of its allies declare on that small alliance because it has too much backbone to put up with NPO and TORN's arrogance and defend their member. Its too late before NPO realizes that through treaty chains they will be on the losing side of a fight that they picked.

.........

Whereas all too often NPO schemes and concocts ridiculous caustic bellies, this one against NPO and its client state alliances is totally legitimate. Even if Karma imposes harsh terms on NPO et al it still doesn't fulfill the concept of payback because of the context. For there to be any genuine payback, "Karma" would have had to make up some nonsense excuse to attack NPO et al and it just didn't happen that way. Its too late for that too.

So all those who think that "Karma" is anything like that which it fights against you need to examine the context. Whereas NPO has fomented many wars against others out of greed and hate, the current war against it is one of legitimate self defense. No, not all of the wars that NPO has fought were illegitimate, but then its not as though NPO only schemed and trifled once, realized its mistake, apologized, and improved itself. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a dozen times, I must be planet bob reacting to NPO aggression... NPO getting checked is long over due and don't pretend that it doesn't deserve it or that Karma is anything like NPO.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Detlev

[Kevin Cash]

op is filled with so many distortions of the truth i am having difficulty responding

its a viable strategy i suppose....

[Gryphon]

op is filled with so many distortions of the truth i am having difficulty responding

its a viable strategy i suppose....

No, it isn't actually. Cite an example and explain, please.

[Detlev]

op is filled with so many distortions of the truth i am having difficulty responding

its a viable strategy i suppose....

You sure have a lot of opinions for a 2 day old player.

[Rajistani]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

[Earogema]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

They have treaties with the other side too.

I'm sorry, but attacking during peace talks is a huge deal breaker. I don't care if I hold a treaty with you, you are scum and that's what you get.

[Deruvian]

They have treaties with the other side too.

I'm sorry, but attacking during peace talks is a huge deal breaker. I don't care if I hold a treaty with you, you are scum and that's what you get.

Aye. There were special circumstances surrounding NPO's DoW. One can't just count on treaties if they screw up as big as attacking during peace negotiations. Smaller wrongs, yes, but not this.

[Doug Falkner]

I was in GPA just before the war and I have to say, while the NPO might have gotten a little over excited their war wasn't entirely unjustified. The GPA wasn't institutionally slow at reacting, it was slow in reacting because the leadership of the GPA at the time disliked NPO and the alliances allied with NPO. I wouldn't say that the GPA was being intentionally provocative but they did do their best to avoid responding to NPO's requests. Now, to be fair to GPA that might be well within the rights of an alliance to refuse to cave into demands but given that the GPA is and was a self-declared neutral alliance, which wanted to avoid getting caught in the drama that plays out between the alliances of Planet Bob, one would have thought they would have tried a little harder to avoid standing against another alliance.

While I won't justify the NPO/GPA war, I would say that the GPA wasn't acting particularly neutral before the war and I could understand how the NPO might legitimately believe that they were a threat (though as we all found out, they weren't much of a threat but prior to the war, given their numbers, it would have been plausible to think that they could be).

[Doug Falkner]

Aye. There were special circumstances surrounding NPO's DoW. One can't just count on treaties if they screw up as big as attacking during peace negotiations. Smaller wrongs, yes, but not this.

The interesting thing is that many of those people excoriated the 1V and Q alliances for doing the same thing.

[Kevin Cash]

They have treaties with the other side too.

I'm sorry, but attacking during peace talks is a huge deal breaker. I don't care if I hold a treaty with you, you are scum and that's what you get.

fact: moo screwed up royally by assuming talks were over, and assumed that this had been communicated to ov on account that ov had not made further attempts at communication with the npo when moo's internet connection crapped out. was it stupid on his part? very. does it mean he is some evil !@#$%^& who lies about peace to attack people when their guard is down? absolutely not. it was an honest, albeit extraordinarily stupid, mistake.

[Deruvian]

The interesting thing is that many of those people excoriated the 1V and Q alliances for doing the same thing.

But the 1V and Q alliances bailed after the sides became much clearer. The others stated their intentions when these lines weren't as clear. Forgive us for thinking that this wasn't simply a tactic (as MCXA admitted).

[Detlev]

I was in GPA just before the war and I have to say, while the NPO might have gotten a little over excited their war wasn't entirely unjustified. The GPA wasn't institutionally slow at reacting, it was slow in reacting because the leadership of the GPA at the time disliked NPO and the alliances allied with NPO. I wouldn't say that the GPA was being intentionally provocative but they did do their best to avoid responding to NPO's requests. Now, to be fair to GPA that might be well within the rights of an alliance to refuse to cave into demands but given that the GPA is and was a self-declared neutral alliance, which wanted to avoid getting caught in the drama that plays out between the alliances of Planet Bob, one would have thought they would have tried a little harder to avoid standing against another alliance.

While I won't justify the NPO/GPA war, I would say that the GPA wasn't acting particularly neutral before the war and I could understand how the NPO might legitimately believe that they were a threat (though as we all found out, they weren't much of a threat but prior to the war, given their numbers, it would have been plausible to think that they could be).

So why was this never a problem for NPO before GPA was #1?

[Matthew Conrad]

The interesting thing is that many of those people excoriated the 1V and Q alliances for doing the same thing.

I believe this stemmed from the fact that all of them announced their cancellations in a single announcement thread. It also probably occurred because the announcement had poor timing as it happened when around a dozen or more alliances had already declared war. Finally, many "Hegemonists" supported, in voice anyway, NPO's side in the tense pre-war period and thus shocked everyone when it seemed like 1V and Q weren't entering.

[Doug Falkner]

To be fair to us, we didn't have warning that stuff was up. We were for the most part caught by surprise by NPO's declaration on OV and it takes some time for people to respond and even then there wasn't complete agreement, as was evident by our pressing people to stay true to their treaties despite that we had officially be listed as staying out of the hullabaloo.

That said, there were a number of folks who were historically allied to the Hegemony that jumped to the Karma side well after we decided that we would honor our treaties, even if we weren't all that happy with NPO's handling of OV.

[Kevin Cash]

No, it isn't actually. Cite an example and explain, please.

see raji's post below yours:

"NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO "

to add to his point, citadel failed to defend og when og was attacked, instead following gremlins when gremlins decided that an odp with fark was worth more than the codex.

further points of interest are the absurd notion that npo ever gave a damn about being the number one alliance in terms of score (they were far more concerned with maintaining their role as the core of the treaty web), the omission of many of gpas screw ups in the days leading up to that war, and claiming that npo broke their agreement with fan (although it was a dick move on npos part, fan did technically break the word of the agreement long before npo decided to act on it)

you can, of course, choose to ignore the facts if it suits your ends, but note that it makes you look rather silly

[theArrowheadian]

It was kinda obvious that this wouldn't be a certain groups version of "justice," but it's better than before.

[Deruvian]

to add to his point, citadel failed to defend og when og was attacked, instead following gremlins when gremlins decided that an odp with fark was worth more than the codex.

I fail to see how indirectly supporting attacks during peace negotiations, or fighting a war based on a CB that could only have been procured through the same CB they were railing against, is against the codex.

edit:

To be fair to us, we didn't have warning that stuff was up. We were for the most part caught by surprise by NPO's declaration on OV and it takes some time for people to respond and even then there wasn't complete agreement, as was evident by our pressing people to stay true to their treaties despite that we had officially be listed as staying out of the hullabaloo.

Well that's true. But what surprises me here is that NPO did not bother informing their allies that they would be declaring war.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Deruvian

[Doug Falkner]

So why was this never a problem for NPO before GPA was #1?

I couldn't say, I don't know what NPO was thinking, I was a part of GPA at the time. And, I'm not saying that what NPO did was right, I'm just saying that things aren't as cut and dried as they were made out to be. The GPA really was, despite it's declarations of neutrality, very anti-NPO. The general feeling there at the time was that NPO and it's allies were warmongers that were antithetical to all the principles of the GPA. It was quite clear that the GPA viewed itself as standing in opposition to NPO, even if the GPA was pacifistic. I could understand how NPO perceived a threat from the GPA, whether there really was a threat or not (and as I noted, I don't think there really was a threat).

[Monster]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

MHA's treaty with NPO is non-chaining and they had no obligation to support NPO's aggression. Read the actual treaty texts before saying "people aren't honoring their treaties!!"

Edited May 6, 2009 by Nausea

[Kevin Cash]

So why was this never a problem for NPO before GPA was #1?

you are a slow one arent you?

do you know what the word 'coincidence' means? these issues were running long before gpa was a few points above npo in the rankings... this notion you have that npo went on red alert the instant gpa peeked over them in the rankings as if its the only thing in the world they were worried about, well, it makes you look foolish.

[bbrownso]

I wonder how many on the Karma side participated in the "many" obviously NPO-led atrocities that happened. Further, I wonder how they came to hold those views and why they get a free pass besides the obvious answer of "well we couldn't win without them, so who cares."

Finally, why is there now such a groundswell of opposition? Apparently, the NPO has been doing this for years and no one did anything until now. There would appare to be two conclusions that can be reached. Either everyone cared for their infra far too much to bother or they were confused as to what constitutes "good" and "bad" behavior.

[Kevin Cash]

MHA's treaty with NPO is non-chaining and they had no obligation to support NPO's aggression. Read the actual treaty texts before saying "people aren't honoring their treaties!!"

'non-chaining' is just a term used by cowards who dont want to honor their obligations to their friends

[Delta1212]

Sparta doesn't have an MADP with NPO...

[Monster]

'non-chaining' is just a term used by cowards who dont want to honor their obligations to their friends

It's in the actual treaty texts, so I guess it should have been brought up when those were signed.

[janax]

NPO wasnt on the losing side if people honored their treaties... MHA/Sparta/co all have MADPs with NPO

Sparta and NPO had an MDP

MHA and NPO had an MDoAP (listed as Cancelled on the NPO wiki....kind of interesting)

Even the Mobius Accords were on MDoAP.