outworld Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Guys, this issue has been settled. I don't see any reason to beat a dead horse over this. Very True slayer, there is no point arguing with flinders anymore its the equivalent of arguing with a brick wall, so this will be the last time I post here since this topic has already been resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordite Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Very True slayer, there is no point arguing with flinders anymore its the equivalent of arguing with a brick wall, so this will be the last time I post here since this topic has already been resolved. But you're going to get one more shot in at Flinders before you leave. Classy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinatownbus Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 Hold on, rewind. I just read through this thread for the first time...and somehow poison clan was mentioned in these logs saying Captain Flinders was friends with the founders of Poison Clan (of which there were two...one of which is me, and the other has left Planet Bob...and I have no relationship with Captain Flinders...) So can someone tell me what that's about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 (edited) Very True slayer, there is no point arguing with flinders anymore its the equivalent of arguing with a brick wall, so this will be the last time I post here since this topic has already been resolved. Why argue at all? According to yourself you have proof of what I owe. Why don't you present that proof now and prove all this arguing silly? Why haven't you provided this proof from the start? Hold on, rewind. I just read through this thread for the first time...and somehow poison clan was mentioned in these logs saying Captain Flinders was friends with the founders of Poison Clan (of which there were two...one of which is me, and the other has left Planet Bob...and I have no relationship with Captain Flinders...) So can someone tell me what that's about? Honestly, I'm not even sure what they were talking about there. Alaric apparently thinks there is some master scheme between me and Poison Clan. I really couldn't wrap my head around that one either. Edited March 28, 2009 by Captain Flinders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatFALGuy Posted March 28, 2009 Report Share Posted March 28, 2009 While not actually reading the thread and then taking a stance on it is indeed ignorant, please allow me to dispell that ignorance by supplying some of the proof that has already been supplied to those who actually matter in this situation. That is a shot of the end of my first chat session with outworld. After that, I requested that he supply proof of the 60 so I could begin payment. To which he of course he freaked out and threatened ZI. Was that the stance that if you are guilty, you deserve ZI and that if you are not, then, uh, well, you do not? While my bias was not "that" much against you, it is surely increasing. Had you posted that beautiful piece from above at the beginning along with the section you allude to about when Outworld "freaked out and threatened ZI" I can't see this issue having logically gotten past the first day. I see that you guys had an agreement. I don't see where the agreement floundered. Rather selective aren't we? This is something of an occurrence with you now isn't it? Two and a half to three days. Thank you, though apparently wrong. Such proof does not exist as I just happen to have all the logs in which I agreed or disagreed to anything. Fancy that. Fancy that. Absence of something does not denote non existence of something. Oh yes, the PM where me telling you that I wasn't Junka was, in your mind, proof that I was him. That was a dandy of a PM. Should we share with the world? Yes, you could say that. You, a person that lied in more than one instance including but not limited to your application at ML, tells me that you are not a certain someone and automatically I am to believe it....interesting. Your "proof" then was that you "talked" to Mobius (of course, only hearsay) and that someone else was accused of being Junka. As well, I never said it was "proof", just that per your response, "If I wasn't convinced you were Junka ten minutes ago, I sure am now". In the end and as previously stated, it is possible you were mistakenly accused of being Junka. You may not be Junka. What labeled you Junka were a combination of others concerns exterior to ML, the timing of your very new nation to an obviously seasoned player and your lies in your application thread. Not to mention your penchant for being a stickler to certain rules when they served your purpose, but ignorant of them when they did not, like, I dunno, this thread. I don't need to speak for Spider but in my mind what he's saying is that certain people are privy to information and others are not. Those who have information have been speaking with that as a firm foundation. Those (such as yourself and others) have been speaking based on the limited information posted here and their own biases. If you're speaking from such a limited information base, it's probably just better to keep out. Yes, that limited information stuff. Like providing a screen shot that you made an agreement, but not one that the agreement was abruptly ended by the other party, which coincidentally would be the ultimate proof that you are in the right. I mean, what's better evidence that your agreement was ended for nefarious reasons than to show such a nefarious conversation? Considering exactly HOW much of a stickler you are about following the rules, taking pride in the rules and so forth, etc., etc., etc.... you seem to have no problem forgetting them when they advance you own cause. This situation is a prime example of it. In one post you lay pride in this, in another you feign that you didn't know or had a mix up about the rules, however that was relayed. This is an identical occurrence both here and your old application thread at ML. Late post is late, started earlier and got pulled away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Had you posted that beautiful piece from above at the beginning along with the section you allude to about when Outworld "freaked out and threatened ZI" I can't see this issue having logically gotten past the first day. I see that you guys had an agreement. I don't see where the agreement floundered. Nothing about this whole thing being pursued so aggressively has been logical really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germanicus Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 (edited) Guys, this issue has been settled. I don't see any reason to beat a dead horse over this. agreed, no reason to keep arguing over this as we are happy with the results and the lowering of reps surely made nemesis happy, so now that we are all a happy bunch we can continiue to go about our business. I hope flinders and nemesis for that matter can atleast agree with us on that much. Honestly, I'm not even sure what they were talking about there. Alaric apparently thinks there is some master scheme between me and Poison Clan. I really couldn't wrap my head around that one either. I will answer this as clarrification to poison clan, flinders you said on your application that you would leave to create an allaince with friends I simply asked on those logs if the leaders of poison clan were your friends sarcastically I might add. Edited March 29, 2009 by germanicus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Wow, you people are still arguing about this. Let's get some things straight, as I'm one of the few people who has been privileged to just about every bit of logs/screenshots/evidence in this ordeal. *GRAN handled things poorly. No doubt. Things were said that shouldn't have been. *There's no solid evidence to prove either side's case. NONE. *There's no dispute that Captain Flinders owed money. NONE. So going into peace mode right away and not offering to pay back the aid received for their program as well as not notifying GRAN before leaving are the issues. *Nemesis, while I have a few friends within their leadership and members, decided to step into an internal issue with an alliance. According to GRAN's own charter, a member may not leave the alliance without permission. It was never given. Therefore this issue should have remained internal. *GRAN screwed up royally and allowed the nosiness of Planet Bob's elite to get into GRAN business by taking this to the public forums. All in all, this was handled peacefully. Some egos may be hurt, but those individuals will live. There are no innocent people in this. So it all needs to be dropped and people need to move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Let's get some things straight, as I'm one of the few people who has been privileged to just about every bit of logs/screenshots/evidence in this ordeal. After reading the below, I kinda doubt that is true. *There's no solid evidence to prove either side's case. NONE. Depends on what is being proven. Does either side have record of payment? Well, outworld says he does so apparently he hasn't shown it to you. Guess you're as out of the loop as any of us eh? *There's no dispute that Captain Flinders owed money. NONE. So going into peace mode right away and not offering to pay back the aid received for their program as well as not notifying GRAN before leaving are the issues. I offered on multiple occasions. I've posted that offering it in this very thread multiple times. Didn't you say you have evidence to back up what you're saying? *Nemesis, while I have a few friends within their leadership and members, decided to step into an internal issue with an alliance. According to GRAN's own charter, a member may not leave the alliance without permission. It was never given. Therefore this issue should have remained internal. GRAN threw their own charter out the window. Or were you not privy to that tidbit of information as well? Fear not, I can indeed fill you in on that one should you seek the information. Just hit me up with a PM and we can organize that as I have for many others seeking clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 No, I hold to what I said. Like I said, I've read all the logs between GRAN and yourself (Flinders). I've seen the screenshots. I've talked with both sides. I'm perfectly clear on what has transpired. The part about their charter that was ever in dispute was the double payment portion of things. And since that issue was never enforced nor attempted to be enforced, it's a dead subject. The issue of gaining permission prior to leaving the part of the charter I am referring and was never disputed. As to the record of the payment, I have seen it and as I told Outworld, it's not solid enough. It's a spreadsheet which cannot be timestamped therefore is open to speculation. That's why I say there's no SOLID proof. As to you offering money on many occasions...you only did so after you were confronted about leaving. Again, I've read the logs. But, there's something you're not quite understanding here. You have received a helluva bailout. A random alliance has decided to pick up your tab, and they've settled on a reduced amount. You've gained infrastructure and an MP in this ordeal. You get to play the victim on the big stage. Disregarding the attitudes and demeanor of my allies in handling the situation, you still owed the money. That part has sort of been lost in the shuffle. You'll end up repaying a small percentage of what you owe and you should be quite satisfied with that. Just drop the arguing because all in all, you've won. Someone else is paying your debts and you've gotten your 15 mins of fame on Bob. It's a shame really. Oh well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 As to you offering money on many occasions...you only did so after you were confronted about leaving. Again, I've read the logs. I hope you understand how that doesn't make sense. The discussion of me leaving and me offering money was all the same conversation. Me leaving hinged on me paying and vice versa. It's unfortunate that even after being shown logs of what went down you still choose to support people so quick to see someone pay for their own shortcomings. Though it's not entirely surprising as people have a decadency to side with their allies regardless of whether their allies are actually in the right or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Of course it matters. It matters when it comes to paying it back. If 60 mil was in fact the amount, then yes, that is what I would have payed. However, since 60 million isn't a number based on evidence or factual and logical findings, then all I asked of GRAN was to provide proof. They claimed they have proof so I don't see why it would be so hard to show proof and receive payment. As have been shown already, I've been more than willing the entire time to pay what was given. That's fine and dandy as well but the charter than GRAN functions under states that I must pay back what was given and does not put a monetary amount on the work around the payments. I'm playing by the rule book here. It'd be nice if everyone else did as well. Good faith doesn't go very far in this world especially when you're the one with the smaller stick. I love these cut and paste quotes, esp where you dodge the fact you were "negotiating" your repayment. Nice choice of words you had there, and I figure that GRAN pretty much had it right. Lucky for you you convinced someone else to back you. Wonder how long before that bites them in the butt?? If you were so willing to repay, why peace mode?? Can't repay from there, but you can hide. LOLOLOLOL at your playing by the rule book, That was too funny. (That rule book you have must have been missing the pages about how to actually leave your alliance). You of course have demonstrated your good faith..... snicker snicker Funny, you demand complete accuracy from GRAN, yet you are just guessing at numbers..... hypocriscy at it's best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordite Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I love these cut and paste quotes, esp where you dodge the fact you were "negotiating" your repayment. Nice choice of words you had there, and I figure that GRAN pretty much had it right. Lucky for you you convinced someone else to back you. Wonder how long before that bites them in the butt?? I don't think we have anything to worry about. If you were so willing to repay, why peace mode?? Can't repay from there, but you can hide. You should read this thread. Maybe it would answer your questions. LOLOLOLOL at your playing by the rule book, That was too funny. (That rule book you have must have been missing the pages about how to actually leave your alliance). Sounds like there were a lot of different versions of the rule book. You of course have demonstrated your good faith..... snicker snicker Why do you think he hasn't? And really, what does it matter? Funny, you demand complete accuracy from GRAN, yet you are just guessing at numbers..... hypocriscy at it's best Because GRAN was keeping track of the numbers, not Flinders. However we do now have a repayment number we can all agree upon, which is really the only one that matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephiroth Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Also, weren't you the guy who said I was denied from Molon Labe because I was Junka and my whole application process was just to have a good laugh at me? Are you sure you aren't Junka? )): Congrats on getting off the ZI list though, seems you've got some good friends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatFALGuy Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I don't think we have anything to worry about. Erm, I dunno about that. At best you are taking on a fickle member. If something doesn't go his way, he leaves, ignoring procedures and consequences. I think that much is wholly apparent here. When he does leave, he takes a drama or three with him on his little ventures. That much is irrefutable at least. 6 alliances since he started, that we know of. First he didn't like the way they did tech deals so left in a week. Second two said NFW as he is a reroll and nothing less. Fourth, he tried to coup as a new nation. Fifth, there is some fishy !@#$ going on regardless. Now your alliance. I dunno if I would say there is nothing to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I hope you understand how that doesn't make sense. The discussion of me leaving and me offering money was all the same conversation. Me leaving hinged on me paying and vice versa. It's unfortunate that even after being shown logs of what went down you still choose to support people so quick to see someone pay for their own shortcomings. Though it's not entirely surprising as people have a decadency to side with their allies regardless of whether their allies are actually in the right or not. It's not unfortunate to side with your allies in any case. As I've said, I know they mishandled some things, but that doesn't mean that the basis of their side of things is wrong. But, whatever...it's all a moot point anyways as things have been settled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordite Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Erm, I dunno about that. At best you are taking on a fickle member. If something doesn't go his way, he leaves, ignoring procedures and consequences. I think that much is wholly apparent here. When he does leave, he takes a drama or three with him on his little ventures. That much is irrefutable at least.6 alliances since he started, that we know of. First he didn't like the way they did tech deals so left in a week. Second two said NFW as he is a reroll and nothing less. Fourth, he tried to coup as a new nation. Fifth, there is some fishy !@#$ going on regardless. Now your alliance. I dunno if I would say there is nothing to worry about. Well, we have structure for tech deals, we don't care if he's a reroll, he can try to coup Bob if he wants, and what fishy !@#$? So maybe he was someone else in a past life, I'm going to judge him on what he does now. Maybe you'll be proven right, and if you are so be it, but I don't think that'll happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Well, we have structure for tech deals, we don't care if he's a reroll, he can try to coup Bob if he wants, and what fishy !@#$? So maybe he was someone else in a past life, I'm going to judge him on what he does now. Maybe you'll be proven right, and if you are so be it, but I don't think that'll happen. What someone does in a past life does reflect on the person's future. Sure, people can change, but their past actions make up their history. Their history adds to their personality and character. So if you choose to disregard their past actions, thats your choice. But saying that past actions don't matter is rather ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordite Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 What someone does in a past life does reflect on the person's future. Sure, people can change, but their past actions make up their history. Their history adds to their personality and character. So if you choose to disregard their past actions, thats your choice. But saying that past actions don't matter is rather ignorant. While I don't want to get into an off-topic discussion of rerolls etc., I believe that unless a person goes around using their past life to their advantage, anything they did in a past reincarnation is of no concern to me. In Flinders' case, the only people who have connected Flinders to past rulers have been people who are not Flinders. But let's assume for a moment I did care about who he was, what relevance does that hold to this situation? Yes, his past matters, and we've rehashed that here and I firmly believe that we are not the same as other alliances Flinders has been in and hence we will not have a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 It's not unfortunate to side with your allies in any case. When they are acting in an unbecoming manner and are plainly wrong, yes it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 When they are acting in an unbecoming manner and are plainly wrong, yes it is. Again, I've addressed the poor handling of the situation. I've addressed the issue where you think they're wrong. Fact is, you've not proven them wrong on their stance. You've only shown how they were rude and mishandled some things. Nothing to prove anyone wrong. So it goes to believing one side over the other, which I've decided to do. Like I said when this whole mess started, sure things were handled poorly, but that doesn't distract the fact that neither side solidly proved their case. I have a relationship with my allies, so I will believe their side. Other people have their agendas and have thus taken their side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordite Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Other people have their agendas and have thus taken their side. I'm curious as to what you think my agenda is, because I didn't think I had one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I'm curious as to what you think my agenda is, because I didn't think I had one. He's seen logs Jordite. He knows everything. Do try to keep up eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 Other people have their agendas and have thus taken their side. I had an agenda beyond wanting to get someone off PZI who was on there for no good reason? Dayum. Also really guys, the situation is resolved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpacingOutMan Posted March 29, 2009 Report Share Posted March 29, 2009 I had an agenda beyond wanting to get someone off PZI who was on there for no good reason? Dayum.Also really guys, the situation is resolved. This man's logic and reason speaks volumes. Listen to him, you may learn something. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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