My Statement

[Captain Flinders]

What is even more funny is that Captain Flinders lied as much or even more and you don't seem to care.

Wait what? What the heck did I lie about?

Sorry if I am being ignorant (ignorant in that I did not read the other 14 page thread past your response on page 2), but where exactly is the proof?

While not actually reading the thread and then taking a stance on it is indeed ignorant, please allow me to dispell that ignorance by supplying some of the proof that has already been supplied to those who actually matter in this situation.

That is a shot of the end of my first chat session with outworld. After that, I requested that he supply proof of the 60 so I could begin payment. To which he of course he freaked out and threatened ZI.

As well I asked how long after you left that you were sentenced to ZI.

Two and a half to three days.

Would have been equally as nice for GRAN to provide proof that you refused repayment or whatnot as well.

Such proof does not exist as I just happen to have all the logs in which I agreed or disagreed to anything. Fancy that.

Yes I was the one to tell you that I thought you were Junka, did it on the OWF as well as in PM.

Oh yes, the PM where me telling you that I wasn't Junka was, in your mind, proof that I was him. That was a dandy of a PM. Should we share with the world?

Pot meet kettle?

I don't need to speak for Spider but in my mind what he's saying is that certain people are privy to information and others are not. Those who have information have been speaking with that as a firm foundation. Those (such as yourself and others) have been speaking based on the limited information posted here and their own biases. If you're speaking from such a limited information base, it's probably just better to keep out.

[outworld]

Flinders the reason you were sentenced to Zi was because of your total lack of respect and refussal to pay back what you owed, as many have stated here before If you are planning to leave and alliance that has given you 60 million dollars in aid, the least you can do before you even touch that little Alliance Affiliation tag is contact somebody and work out a deal to pay back what you owed.

You claim that you tried to pay back the money , well thats a complete lie and the proof is right in front of eveyones eyes, If you were planning on paying back the money why did you go into peace mode the VERY SAME DAY you left GRAN, were you planning on paying us back from peace mode? Secondly you also admitted in your above post that you were sentenced to Zi 3-4 days after leaving which clearly backs up my statement that you were just going back and forth and finding every objection you could and overall just wasting my time.

Finally lets not forget that you left GRAN and went to Poison Clan before even sending me your resignation through a pm, which violated our oath of loyalty which clearly states that to leave you have to ask for PERMISSION FIRST, that alone would have been enough to sentence you to zi yet i gave it another shot in the hopes of getting our money, and to all those that said we didnt give diplomacy a shot , use your head for a minute and realize that 60 million is alot more valuable to us than sacrificing 3 of our weaker nations in order to Zi a nation with nukes (yes we dont have anyone with nukes in flinders range so it would have been a huge loss for us in the end to Zi him)

In any case this is old news already, bob has decided to pick up flinders tab already and like Mistah hoo said this is aleady getting hammered out.

[Captain Flinders]

Flinders the reason you were sentenced to Zi was because of your total lack of respect and refussal to pay back what you owed

I just posted a shot of me saying that I would pay it back. You put me on ZI because I insisted on seeing proof of the 60 million dollar number.

You claim that you tried to pay back the money , well thats a complete lie and the proof is right in front of eveyones eyes

Proof to the contrary is on display on this very page.

If you were planning on paying back the money why did you go into peace mode the VERY SAME DAY you left GRAN, were you planning on paying us back from peace mode?

Because I knew negotiations with GRAN could easily go south and it turns out I was right. Within 2-3 days I was put on a ZI list and had it not been for me taking the precaution of going into peace mode, I'd likely be in a war right now. My going into peace mode had nothing to do with avoiding payment and everything to with positioning myself for an equal ground when it comes to negotiations.

Secondly you also admitted in your above post that you were sentenced to Zi 3-4 days after leaving

No I didn't. I said it was 2.5 to 3 days. I could get the exact dates and times if you'd like but it should be noted that in those three days we spoke twice before the thread went up. I was not messing around or trying to get out of what was owed and the logs provided show that. I was not willing to be committed to a number that was plucked out of thin air in a moment of anger by yourself and your government.

Finally lets not forget that you left GRAN and went to Poison Clan before even sending me your resignation through a pm, which violated our oath of loyalty which clearly states that to leave you have to ask for PERMISSION FIRST, that alone would have been enough to sentence you to zi

Confusing the exact resignation process is reason for ZI? When I spoke with PC I told them I was still in the process of working out my debt and they told me to come back when it was figured out. The story of PC ends there as does any garbage about me trying to flee the alliance. The shot above again shows that I said I would stay to pay what I owed.

In any case this is old news already, bob has decided to pick up flinders tab already and like Mistah hoo said this is aleady getting hammered out.

Then feel free to stop responding here. I certainly don't intend to as my character has come into question on multiple occasions and I certain;y will not back down from defending it.

[Kilkenny]

Wait what? What the heck did I lie about?

How about what you owed?? That seems to be Nemesis's big objection to GRAN's 60 mil, and the crying about GRAN lying about it.

Bottom line, you accepted aid for buying a MP, which you did. It doesn't matter how much money they gave you directly. If they say you owe 60 mil, you owe 60 mil. It isn't just the money you took. If they hadn't fed the money to you, they could have fed it to another nation. It isn't just the loss of the money, but the MP the allaince no longer has, the 20 nukes they no longer have, the time they have to invest in another nation just to get back up to where they were when you left. There is all that too.

For future information, going into peace mode even before talking ablout repaying, nice how you refer to paying them back as negotiating, does not signal good intentions on your part. That plus "negotiating" paying them back, signals your intention to screw them out of as much money as possible, until you were sentenced to ZI. Kinda screwed up plans, huh. Good faith on your part would have been to remain in war mode and ask for the link to the first 5 nations to receive repayment, not negotiating your repayment.

[outworld]

Because I knew negotiations with GRAN could easily go south and it turns out I was right. Within 2-3 days I was put on a ZI list and had it not been for me taking the precaution of going into peace mode, I'd likely be in a war right now. My going into peace mode had nothing to do with avoiding payment and everything to with positioning myself for an equal ground when it comes to negotiations.

There are only two possible explanations to this

1. You knew this would turn sour because you were going to object to payment.

2. You are psychic and could predict the future in which case ill have to call you nostradamus from now on.

Plus it is so easy to make payments from peace mode I mean really how stupid of us to think you were not going to pay, by enterring into peace mode without even talking to me first you already had taken the first step in a bad dirrection and had already enterred the negotiations in on a bad note.

Confusing the exact resignation process is reason for ZI? When I spoke with PC I told them I was still in the process of working out my debt and they told me to come back when it was figured out. The story of PC ends there as does any garbage about me trying to flee the alliance. The shot above again shows that I said I would stay to pay what I owed.

Yes it is actually just like confusing the proper process for tech raiding or the proper process for conduct, You broke your oath and the charter the moment you left without following the procedures thats no different than breaking the procedures for anything else.

Edited March 28, 2009 by outworld

[Captain Flinders]

It doesn't matter how much money they gave you directly.

Of course it matters. It matters when it comes to paying it back.

If they say you owe 60 mil, you owe 60 mil.

If 60 mil was in fact the amount, then yes, that is what I would have payed. However, since 60 million isn't a number based on evidence or factual and logical findings, then all I asked of GRAN was to provide proof. They claimed they have proof so I don't see why it would be so hard to show proof and receive payment. As have been shown already, I've been more than willing the entire time to pay what was given.

It isn't just the money you took. If they hadn't fed the money to you, they could have fed it to another nation. It isn't just the loss of the money, but the MP the allaince no longer has, the 20 nukes they no longer have, the time they have to invest in another nation just to get back up to where they were when you left. There is all that too.

That's fine and dandy as well but the charter than GRAN functions under states that I must pay back what was given and does not put a monetary amount on the work around the payments. I'm playing by the rule book here. It'd be nice if everyone else did as well.

Good faith on your part would have been to remain in war mode and ask for the link to the first 5 nations to receive repayment, not negotiating your repayment.

Good faith doesn't go very far in this world especially when you're the one with the smaller stick.

There are only two possible explanations to this

1. You knew this would turn sour because you were going to object to payment.

2. You are psychic and could predict the future in which case ill have to call you nostradamus from now on.

Plus it is so easy to make payments from peace mode I mean really how stupid of us to think you were not going to pay, by enterring into peace mode without even talking to me first you already had taken the first step in a bad dirrection and had already enterred the negotiations in on a bad note.

Or, as I said already, I knew from experience in GRAN that you guys are quick to anger and quick to war. The discussion of warring TGE and COIN taught me that right away and you threatening sanctions and ZI confirmed it.

[germanicus]

No I didn't. I said it was 2.5 to 3 days. I could get the exact dates and times if you'd like but it should be noted that in those three days we spoke twice before the thread went up. I was not messing around or trying to get out of what was owed and the logs provided show that. I was not willing to be committed to a number that was plucked out of thin air in a moment of anger by yourself and your government.

flinders you left on march the 11th I posted this after midnight on the 12th the zi thread was posted on the 16th so lets recap from the 11th to the 16th thats 5 days of negotiation with you im glad you conviniently leave out such things as this as you also left out the real amount you owe us.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/k...aric/abrced.jpg

no wonder you conviniently forget the things that make you look bad, like using my irc logs with you when I clearly stated several times that I wasnt the right man to be negotiating with yet you still kept pushing it. If you cant really remember the time you left or the procedures for leaving you telling me you do remember the exact amount of aid we gave you?

please its a miracle there are still people here that believe you.

[Haflinger]

Yes it is actually just like confusing the proper process for tech raiding or the proper process for conduct, You broke your oath and the charter the moment you left without following the procedures thats no different than breaking the procedures for anything else.

You order ZI for every violation of your procedures?

In my mind, the only reason to pass a ZI order is to remove a threat to your alliance. If an Invicta member swears at me in PMs, I don't ZI them, for example.

[outworld]

Or, as I said already, I knew from experience in GRAN that you guys are quick to anger and quick to war. The discussion of warring TGE and COIN taught me that right away and you threatening sanctions and ZI confirmed it

Right and you knew from experience that if you sent me a message saying "hey I want to leave how much do I owe you" I would respond by saying "Evil Flinder we are going to Zi you" yes that definatly sounds Believable maybe a 5th grader will believe that. Ohh and the threatening of sanctions and Zi came long after you had hit peace mode which only confirms that the only reason you had for going into peace mode was because you were planning on scamming us from the moment you left.

I can bet everyone here agrees I have never left and alliance were i needed to go into peace mode before I even sent a resignation.

[Captain Flinders]

flinders you left on march the 11th I posted this after midnight on the 12th the zi thread was posted on the 16th so lets recap from the 11th to the 16th thats 5 days of negotiation with you im glad you conviniently leave out such things as this as you also left out the real amount you owe us.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd283/k...aric/abrced.jpg

no wonder you conviniently forget the things that make you look bad, like using my irc logs with you when I clearly stated several times that I wasnt the right man to be negotiating with yet you still kept pushing it. If you cant really remember the time you left or the procedures for leaving you telling me you do remember the exact amount of aid we gave you?

please its a miracle there are still people here that believe you.

Dude, even that screen shot is from the 12th. If the thread was posted on the 16th that would be four days. I was going from memory saying three days but really, it doesn't matter in the least. We certainly didn't talk for four days straight and in fact, we only spoke a couple times as GRAN government was exceedingly elusive.

Right and you knew from experience that if you sent me a message saying "hey I want to leave how much do I owe you" I would respond by saying "Evil Flinder we are going to Zi you" yes that definatly sounds Believable maybe a 5th grader will believe that. Ohh and the threatening of sanctions and Zi came long after you had hit peace mode which only confirms that the only reason you had for going into peace mode was because you were planning on scamming us from the moment you left.

If the only proof for me having a scheme to "scam" you was that I am in peace mode and you have to make up some elaborate story to support it, it's probably not the most sound piece of evidence to support your claims. Especially considering the shots I've posted and the logs where I repeatedly said I'd pay the amount. All I ever asked for was proof of my debt so the payments could begin. Though, truthfully, that is a lot to ask when proof doesn't actually exist isn't it?

[germanicus]

Or, as I said already, I knew from experience in GRAN that you guys are quick to anger and quick to war. The discussion of warring TGE and COIN taught me that right away and you threatening sanctions and ZI confirmed it.

funny of you to mention TGE on here flinders as I recall tensions with TGE started when you joined GRAN before that we never had a yes or no with them, and as I recall TGE asked us several times to put a stop to your antagonizing of them on every thread they made. Even funnier is the fact that after you left we have not had any issues with TGE what so ever.

But lets forget about all that, lets focus on you trying to picture us as war monger alliance if we were so quick to anger and war why did we lower your reps to 48 mill we showed we were the bigger man whether everyone else wants to see it or not.

[outworld]

You order ZI for every violation of your procedures?

In my mind, the only reason to pass a ZI order is to remove a threat to your alliance. If an Invicta member swears at me in PMs, I don't ZI them, for example.

Well we ussually dont resort to Zi unless it pertains to something were it was already mentioned previously that Zi would be a punishment for it, for example in this case the Oath that Flinders had to take to join clearly stated that if you Break this oath your nation will Lay in Ruins. Another good example of this would be attacking another alliance, we make sure that before to accept anyone into the alliance they know the rules well, and if after they have acknowledged and told us that they understand the rules they go ahead and break them I personally see that as intentional and not merely and accident

Of course we are alot more lineant with nations that are -30 days old since they are knew and all but this was not the case with flinders

Dude, even that screen shot is from the 12th. If the thread was posted on the 16th that would be four days. I was going from memory saying three days but really, it doesn't matter in the least. We certainly didn't talk for four days straight and in fact, we only spoke a couple times as GRAN government was exceedingly elusive.

Right how conveniant of you to forget , when a few post back you were already saying how you would show proof that you were zi'd 2-3 days after leaving, Plus our government is soo elusive yet me and you were in talks through Pm's for the entirety of those 4-5 days.

If the only proof for me having a scheme to "scam" you was that I am in peace mode and you have to make up some elaborate story to support it, it's probably not the most sound piece of evidence to support your claims. Especially considering the shots I've posted and the logs where I repeatedly said I'd pay the amount. All I ever asked for was proof of my debt so the payments could begin. Though, truthfully, that is a lot to ask when proof doesn't actually exist isn't it?

You still havent answered the question flinders , if you had every intention of paying why did you go hide in peace mode before even resigning, I mean thats like you grabbing a gun putting on a mask driving to the front door of a bank then saying, I had no intentions of actually robbing it

Plus the fact that when Bob approched me and offered to pay your amount and I accepted is evidence enough that the only thing we were after was the money, so your argument that I only wanted to Zi you and not the money has failed.

Edited March 28, 2009 by outworld

[germanicus]

Dude, even that screen shot is from the 12th. If the thread was posted on the 16th that would be four days. I was going from memory saying three days but really, it doesn't matter in the least. We certainly didn't talk for four days straight and in fact, we only spoke a couple times as GRAN government was exceedingly elusive.

you left on the 11th, I logged in at midnight on the 12th and you were already a poison clan applicant. you do know that once its midnight its the 12th right?

as far as we being elusive I think we can all agree you were elusive at best you logged in twice a week if that.

[Blacky]

Ohh and the threatening of sanctions and Zi came long after you had hit peace mode which only confirms that the only reason you had for going into peace mode was because you were planning on scamming us from the moment you left.

I can bet everyone here agrees I have never left and alliance were i needed to go into peace mode before I even sent a resignation.

Oh Really? I can come up with two perfectly reasonable scenarios where that might be the case.

1) You are switching to unaligned during the transition.

2) You have unresolved issues or a rivalry with a third party and don't want them to use your application phase or a period of a lack of guaranteed protection as an opportune moment to strike.

I know this because just before Nemesis was founded many of the founders were in Peace Mode during that transitory period. Now if you're accusing us and hundreds of others who have made a similar move of being scammers you are either way off-target or being deliberately offensive.

[Blacky]

As far as we being elusive I think we can all agree you were elusive at best you logged in twice a week if that.

Right, the logs which clearly show him willing to pay back any and all owed moneys and sit in the AA for the duration of the time shows him as being elusive and is also evidence of malpractice.

In his opinion he did not think he owed all of 60 million, and based on the information I have gathered I would be in doubt as well if I were Flinders. Any reasonable person would be. Him asking for evidence that it was 60 million, rather than 57, or 54 or even 42 for that matter is not being elusive or attempting to weasel out of it.

Also that policy of needing permission before leaving. I'm sure that's a popular one with the new recruits.

Either way this issue as far as I'm aware is being resolved so it's useless to continue on about it now unless there are new circumstances you would like to bring forwards; in public. Otherwise, let this die off.

[outworld]

Oh Really? I can come up with two perfectly reasonable scenarios where that might be the case.

1) You are switching to unaligned during the transition.

2) You have unresolved issues or a rivalry with a third party and don't want them to use your application phase or a period of a lack of guaranteed protection as an opportune moment to strike.

I know this because just before Nemesis was founded many of the founders were in Peace Mode during that transitory period. Now if you're accusing us and hundreds of others who have made a similar move of being scammers you are either way off-target or being deliberately offensive.

Correction Flinders jumped from GRAN to Poison Clan Applicant , no need to switch to peace mode since poison Clan would protect him from raiders, or any third party's.

Also as far as I am concerned this issue is already dead, infact we at GRAN were so Nice that we even lowered the payment amount to 48 million as a show of good faith to BoB, who handled this situation very well.

Edited March 28, 2009 by outworld

[Jordite]

Correction Flinders jumped from GRAN to Poison Clan Applicant , no need to switch to peace mode since poison Clan would protect him from raiders, or any third party's.

Re-read #2.

Edit: As is said there, an application process is not guaranteed protection.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Jordite

[Captain Flinders]

funny of you to mention TGE on here flinders as I recall tensions with TGE started when you joined GRAN before that we never had a yes or no with them, and as I recall TGE asked us several times to put a stop to your antagonizing of them on every thread they made. Even funnier is the fact that after you left we have not had any issues with TGE what so ever.

I did nothing to sour TGE/GRAN relations. Though I could certainly pull up some logs showing that resentment for TGE was within GRAN before me even applying. Regardless, that's not the reason I brought up TGE but you haven't been one to comprehend reason in this thread so we'll just leave that be.

You still havent answered the question flinders , if you had every intention of paying why did you go hide in peace mode before even resigning, I mean thats like you grabbing a gun putting on a mask driving to the front door of a bank then saying, I had no intentions of actually robbing it

I've answered that question like three times on the last page and many times even before that but maybe it'll sink in this time. I went to peace mode to avoid damage to my nation due to the quickly excitable and quick to anger nature of the GRAN government and government process. I worried that if I resigned with a debt to negotiate that you and your government would see fit to flex your muscle on my nation instead of reasonably debate my debt. I was proven correct.

Plus the fact that when Bob approched me and offered to pay your amount and I accepted is evidence enough that the only thing we were after was the money, so your argument that I only wanted to Zi you and not the money has failed.

I have logs of you saying that the money is nothing to you and you wanted to ZI me on principle so you can stop playing that game as well.

as far as we being elusive I think we can all agree you were elusive at best you logged in twice a week if that.

Really? Really? Do I even have to point out how outrageous that statement is? Especially considering we're debating a time frame of days/hours? Really?

[outworld]

Really now,

So let me ask you flinders if you are telling the truth and we wanted to zi you all along, then why did I refuse your offer? Dont know which offer im talking about let me refresh your memory, remember when you said that instead of paying the 60 mill you would preferre if one of us attacked you for 7 days and you would not fight back for those seven days. So tell me if Zi is what I wanted why in the world would I not take and offer like that?

I've answered that question like three times on the last page and many times even before that but maybe it'll sink in this time. I went to peace mode to avoid damage to my nation due to the quickly excitable and quick to anger nature of the GRAN government and government process. I worried that if I resigned with a debt to negotiate that you and your government would see fit to flex your muscle on my nation instead of reasonably debate my debt. I was proven correct.

This statement is partially correct, you went to peace mode because you knew that you were breaking our rules and trying to scam us and you knew we had the testicular fortitude to chase you down no matter were you went, thats why you went to peace mode.

Plus Debt to negotiate ? are you telling me that before you even sent me the resignation you knew you had a Debt to negotiate ? I told you how much you owed us after you had left our AA and were in Peace mode, so bassically your admitting that you were prepared to argue whatever amount we would have stated even if it would have been 60,30,20 , or 9 .

Edited March 28, 2009 by outworld

[Captain Flinders]

Really now,

So let me ask you flinders if you are telling the truth and we wanted to zi you all along, then why did I refuse your offer? Dont know which offer im talking about let me refresh your memory, remember when you said that instead of paying the 60 mill you would preferre if one of us attacked you for 7 days and you would not fight back for those seven days. So tell me if Zi is what I wanted why in the world would I not take and offer like that?

I'm not saying that you wanted to ZI me all along. I'm saying that you have not been the beacon of rationality or fairness that you have tried to portray yourself in this thread. Though that much is probably apparent to most.

[Jordite]

Really now,

So let me ask you flinders if you are telling the truth and we wanted to zi you all along, then why did I refuse your offer? Dont know which offer im talking about let me refresh your memory, remember when you said that instead of paying the 60 mill you would preferre if one of us attacked you for 7 days and you would not fight back for those seven days. So tell me if Zi is what I wanted why in the world would I not take and offer like that?

That doesn't help you look like you're not trigger-happy. It's also a more expensive option at his strength levels.

[Slayer99]

Guys, this issue has been settled. I don't see any reason to beat a dead horse over this.

[outworld]

I've answered that question like three times on the last page and many times even before that but maybe it'll sink in this time. I went to peace mode to avoid damage to my nation due to the quickly excitable and quick to anger nature of the GRAN government and government process. I worried that if I resigned with a debt to negotiate that you and your government would see fit to flex your muscle on my nation instead of reasonably debate my debt. I was proven correct.

For those that missed it

Debt to negotiate ? are you telling me that before you even sent me the resignation you knew you had a Debt to negotiate ? I told you how much you owed us after you had left our AA and were in Peace mode, so bassically your admitting that you were prepared to argue whatever amount we would have stated even if it would have been 60,30,20 , or 9 .

Edited March 28, 2009 by outworld

[Captain Flinders]

Guys, this issue has been settled. I don't see any reason to beat a dead horse over this.

I'm as surprised as anyone to see this thread revived today. But when my actions and/or character get called into question I'll always be there to defend myself.

Debt to negotiate ? are you telling me that before you even sent me the resignation you knew you had a Debt to negotiate ? I told you how much you owed us after you had left our AA and were in Peace mode, so bassically your admitting that you were prepared to argue whatever amount we would have stated even if it would have been 60,30,20 , or 9 .

Will you honestly give it up? You're going from point to point in my posts looking and hoping for something to stick to me and it has all fallen flat so far. Let's break this one down in a more point form style so as to avoid confusion as this peace mode thing seems to be getting fuzzy on your side.

Before I sent you my resignation I knew that I had received funds from GRAN.

I was not completely clear on what exactly was owed or the process of doing so.

I know from being in GRAN that the government has a short fuse and that they could possible to shoot first and ask who they hit later.

So I went into peace mode to ensure my own safety during our talks.

You brought out the 60 mil number.

I asked for proof of that number.

You provided none and insisted I payed.

I still asked for proof.

You put me on ZI therefore proving that my caution was well warranted.

Edited March 28, 2009 by Captain Flinders

[janax]

Wow...I hope alliances that deal with others like this never have a rogue hit any of our nations.

I may look back and this as a basis for how I negotiate with them.

Also it does matter how much exactly is owed, no one in their right mind tries charging people who leave "for the 20 nukes they no longer have". That's just ridiculous. You pay back what you agreed to. If it was the amount given, you pay that back. If it's a flat amount you agreed to, it's that much.

"I'm sorry, you can't leave until you make sure we can replace the 25NS you are taking with you. We charge 3 million per .01 of score lost."

Yeah, that makes sense.