Haflinger Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 We don't fund MPs in this manner anymore. Most Invicta aid is in the form of tech deals, and yes, we keep records on those too and we do punish nations who try to scam us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Too many quote blocs, therefore I'll use some code in here: Sorry, but when a TPF member starts talking about prudent things, I tend to drift away into candy land and dream about the chocolate river and the fudge mountains Say no to drugs. and we are always prudent. I agree that Flinders is not a knight in white armour here, but it's pretty obvious that GRAN didn't try to resolve this with the means expected of an alliance that want to have a decent chance of surviving in the long run here on our fine planet. So why blame GRAN for it all and give Flinders a pass?? Seems like that is ajendda driven at best and leaves one open for ridicule and accusations of being a hypacrit. Or look normal?? So do I. That's why I am expecting GRAN to show some records of their aid program. I mean, it would be pretty hilarious if their aid program didn't have any written records. Right? Uhm, while that might be funny to you, I think that is not the only or primary reason you joined in. Let's say that someone gives you 10.000 because you're having a rough patch. A while later, your friendship wither and you drift away. Is it all right of them to tell you to pay the money back, and when you say "sure", they decide to punch you in the face instead? Depends on when they said it. Where is his logs that he told them he would repay it?? He said he was willing to pay back what he claimed he owed then said he would pay back the whole amount, but when? Saying that after going on the ZI list is a little late. That would be like someone owing me money, friendship whither, then he says he'll pay back 5000 instead of 10000. Yeah, he will get punched in the mouth, and should expect it. after that saying he will pay back the whole amount doesn't change needing ot be punched in the mouth. And Flinders offered to repay them, did he not? When did he agree?? Everyone looks bad in the morning. not me, I look sexy all the time. Is it OK to change the rules after the game is played? I think almost all alliances change their charter as time goes on. They find that something doesn't work, they change it. Having a nation enter an aid program and then leave is costly. Another nation could have received that aid and bought a MP and stayed, helping the alliance. Changing it to ssay they have to repay double, seems like a plan by them to keep that from happening in the future. He was never asked to repay before they put him on a ZI list. GRAN just wanted to talk the talk. Too bad they can't walk the walk. Was he?? he said he was, but they say no. TBH I do believe GRAN on this. I can't see them turning down repayment of $60 mil for hte joy of ZIing someone. Seems to me that either he didn't agree to it or The way he said it led them to believe he was lying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 That's not how presumption of innocence works.You don't get to say "Oh I proved SOME of my case, and you agreed with me, SO EVERYTHING ELSE I SAY MUST BE TRUE!" That's just lousy logic. And it might be how CN works (although I don't think so), but I'm not going to agree with it ever. who says there's a presumption of innocence? I hate when people skew RL politics/policies into the game. You KNOW you're going to end up on the other side of a similar dispute in the future, it's inevitable. Why set yourself up to get mocked, ridiculed, and ignored when it comes time to plead your own case and act like a human being? And just for the record, I've been on the other side of a situation/dispute similarly. I didn't like the way things were handled or my position in them, but that doesn't change the way things occurred. And for the record, I'm not doing things in any way. I'm merely commenting on the events. I'm not saying this is how I ran VA nor how I handled similar instances in the past. I'm just saying it's not the first time, nor last time, that things have been handled in this manner. And yes. I am saving this quote for later ok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Hoo III Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Was he?? he said he was, but they say no. TBH I do believe GRAN on this. I can't see them turning down repayment of $60 mil for hte joy of ZIing someone. Seems to me that either he didn't agree to it or The way he said it led them to believe he was lying. Except the situation went sorta like this: Flinders: Ok, I'll return to GRAN until I have cleared everything. How much do I owe? GRAN: $60 mil. Flinders: Wait, that sounds a little high. How do I owe so much? GRAN: You just do. Shut up or we'll ZI you. Flinders: I have no problem paying, I just want to make sure it's the correct amount. Can I see documentation? GRAN: We have proof, but you can't see it. Pay $60 mil or get ZIed. Flinders: That seems a little harsh, I just want proof before I pay an amount I don't agree with. GRAN: Yeah? Too bad. You can't do anything about it and we'll put you on EZI if you don't shut up. ** GRAN announces the ZI of Flinders** Flinders: Hey, wait a damn minute! GRAN: WE SAID SHUTUP. YOU NO PAY NOW YOU DIE. The above is a re-enactment of the events in question, but are wholly accurate based on what I have seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) Depends on when they said it. Where is his logs that he told them he would repay it?? Wait for it... Wait for it.... And Flinders offered to repay them, did he not?When did he agree?? Just a little bit longer now.... He was never asked to repay before they put him on a ZI list. GRAN just wanted to talk the talk. Too bad they can't walk the walk.Was he?? he said he was, but they say no. TBH I do believe GRAN on this. I can't see them turning down repayment of $60 mil for hte joy of ZIing someone. Seems to me that either he didn't agree to it or The way he said it led them to believe he was lying. I think I can hear it coming... Oh, there it is. This is but a small part of a set of very entertaining logs: [2009-03-13 01:13:27] <alaric[GRAN]> let me guess your friends started poison clan uhh.... I dont want to hear your *explicit removed* so talk to outworld from here on out and you owe 100 tech I dont care how much you want to argue it btw I placed you on ignore so good bye [2009-03-13 01:14:00] <CaptainFlinders> not man enough to talk to me [2009-03-13 01:14:02] <CaptainFlinders> sad really [2009-03-13 01:14:31] <alaric[GRAN]> come out of peace mode and ill show you how man I am *explicit removed* [2009-03-13 01:14:35] <CaptainFlinders> lol [2009-03-13 01:14:39] <CaptainFlinders> I thought I was on ignore [2009-03-13 01:15:02] <alaric[GRAN]> let me guess you want to be perma zi is that right? [2009-03-13 01:15:45] <alaric[GRAN]> common keep talking whats the matter cat got your tounge [2009-03-13 01:15:50] <CaptainFlinders> dude, I'm the one trying to discuss payment. You're the one getting hostile. If I'm ignored then so be it. I love being right not me, I look sexy all the time. Still sure about that snuckums? ok? It sure is. EDIT: Just added another quote Edited March 23, 2009 by SpiderJerusalem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I care if someone takes our money and leaves.I don't, however, put them on ZI less than 24 hours after the fact. I work with them to find a mutually acceptable repayment plan and an agreement on the amount owed. Since we actually have a list of how much people were set to receive, and a place to report it if they don't, it's not hard to track. Money comes and goes, your reputation for how you conduct yoruself, whether it be e-peen waving or trying to work out an acceptable arrangement, is something less easily made up. I don't believe he was put on a ZI list just 24 hrs after he left GRAN (although I'm not fully up to date on the exact time frame) because I'm rather certain I spoke with GRAN govt about this issue far before he was a ZI target. I will say some things have gotten out of hand on this issue. But, I dont think it's anything that hurts GRAN's reputation. They've been around for a very long time, and have been great allies. Granted this may be your only interaction with them, but that doesnt mean much. That just means you're not the ones they need to worry about. They worry how their allies look upon them. And this issue doesnt make me look at them any different than I did before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Posted March 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I don't believe he was put on a ZI list just 24 hrs after he left GRAN (although I'm not fully up to date on the exact time frame) because I'm rather certain I spoke with GRAN govt about this issue far before he was a ZI target. I will say some things have gotten out of hand on this issue. But, I dont think it's anything that hurts GRAN's reputation. They've been around for a very long time, and have been great allies. Granted this may be your only interaction with them, but that doesnt mean much. That just means you're not the ones they need to worry about. They worry how their allies look upon them. And this issue doesnt make me look at them any different than I did before. I'd suggest reading up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erikz Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 I don't believe he was put on a ZI list just 24 hrs after he left GRAN (although I'm not fully up to date on the exact time frame) because I'm rather certain I spoke with GRAN govt about this issue far before he was a ZI target. I will say some things have gotten out of hand on this issue. But, I dont think it's anything that hurts GRAN's reputation. They've been around for a very long time, and have been great allies. Granted this may be your only interaction with them, but that doesnt mean much. That just means you're not the ones they need to worry about. They worry how their allies look upon them. And this issue doesnt make me look at them any different than I did before. I'm sorry, but GRAN messed up srsly this time... Being around for so long, they should have known better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JWConner Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Except the situation went sorta like this:Flinders: Ok, I'll return to GRAN until I have cleared everything. How much do I owe? GRAN: $60 mil. Flinders: Wait, that sounds a little high. How do I owe so much? GRAN: You just do. Shut up or we'll ZI you. Flinders: I have no problem paying, I just want to make sure it's the correct amount. Can I see documentation? GRAN: We have proof, but you can't see it. Pay $60 mil or get ZIed. Flinders: That seems a little harsh, I just want proof before I pay an amount I don't agree with. GRAN: Yeah? Too bad. You can't do anything about it and we'll put you on EZI if you don't shut up. ** GRAN announces the ZI of Flinders** Flinders: Hey, wait a damn minute! GRAN: WE SAID SHUTUP. YOU NO PAY NOW YOU DIE. The above is a re-enactment of the events in question, but are wholly accurate based on what I have seen. I wanna find this GRAN guy. But yeah, I LOL'd. I can't be mad at the Hoo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Flinders Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 (edited) It seems to me that the prudent thing would have been to talk about repayment when he resigned. That's exactly what I was doing when the initial thread went up. I'm not sure why you've decided to campaign so vigorously for GRAN as you really don't have much to stand on. Those speaking in my defense have seen logs and evidence to support my claims. Has GRAN shown you anything to validate what they have said? I wanna find this GRAN guy. But yeah, I LOL'd. I can't be mad at the Hoo... You'd be surprised how accurate that summary is. Edited March 23, 2009 by Captain Flinders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 You'd be surprised how accurate that summary is. Quoting this to confirm. The summary is pretty much dead on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulpig Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Cool. I knew Bob was awesome but i never knew he was this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wait for it... Wait for it....Just a little bit longer now.... I think I can hear it coming... Oh, there it is. This is but a small part of a set of very entertaining logs: [2009-03-13 01:13:27] <alaric[GRAN]> let me guess your friends started poison clan uhh.... I dont want to hear your *explicit removed* so talk to outworld from here on out and you owe 100 tech I dont care how much you want to argue it btw I placed you on ignore so good bye [2009-03-13 01:14:00] <CaptainFlinders> not man enough to talk to me [2009-03-13 01:14:02] <CaptainFlinders> sad really [2009-03-13 01:14:31] <alaric[GRAN]> come out of peace mode and ill show you how man I am *explicit removed* [2009-03-13 01:14:35] <CaptainFlinders> lol [2009-03-13 01:14:39] <CaptainFlinders> I thought I was on ignore [2009-03-13 01:15:02] <alaric[GRAN]> let me guess you want to be perma zi is that right? [2009-03-13 01:15:45] <alaric[GRAN]> common keep talking whats the matter cat got your tounge [2009-03-13 01:15:50] <CaptainFlinders> dude, I'm the one trying to discuss payment. You're the one getting hostile. If I'm ignored then so be it. BLAH BLAH see below I love being right LOLOL you don't love much do you? Still sure about that snuckums? YES, still sure. JBone said it and he wouldn't lie. Wow someone is getting screwed. My admiration for GRAN went through the roof. I mean those logs are talking about 100 Tech and then they got 60 mil for it?!?!?!?!?!!?!? WOW, 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. That is awesome. I must learn how to do that. of course now that I said that I am sure the next edited log will have 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. Again, fault on both sides, not just one. BTW, cut and paste logs are so last season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordite Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wow someone is getting screwed. My admiration for GRAN went through the roof. I mean those logs are talking about 100 Tech and then they got 60 mil for it?!?!?!?!?!!?!? WOW, 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. That is awesome. I must learn how to do that. of course now that I said that I am sure the next edited log will have 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. Again, fault on both sides, not just one. BTW, cut and paste logs are so last season. I think you're reading that wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wow someone is getting screwed. At least you got this part right. I must learn how to do that. of course now that I said that I am sure the next edited log will have 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. I am sure you're not speculating wildly, right? Again, fault on both sides, not just one. You need to learn how to cut your losses. Or at least learn basic comprehension skills. I am sure that you can figure out what those logs really say if you just go back and read them a few more times. If not, then I am afraid that you'll have to continue riding the short bus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van Hoo III Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 Wow someone is getting screwed. My admiration for GRAN went through the roof. I mean those logs are talking about 100 Tech and then they got 60 mil for it?!?!?!?!?!!?!? WOW, 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. That is awesome. I must learn how to do that. of course now that I said that I am sure the next edited log will have 60 mil instead of 100 Tech. Again, fault on both sides, not just one. BTW, cut and paste logs are so last season. You ... are coming across as completely ignorant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 [2009-03-13 01:13:27] <alaric[GRAN]> let me guess your friends started poison clan uhh.... I dont want to hear your *explicit removed* so talk to outworld from here on out [b][color="#FF0000"]and you owe 100 tech [/color][/b] I dont care how much you want to argue it btw I placed you on ignore so good bye [2009-03-13 01:14:00] <CaptainFlinders> not man enough to talk to me [2009-03-13 01:14:02] <CaptainFlinders> sad really [2009-03-13 01:14:31] <alaric[GRAN]> come out of peace mode and ill show you how man I am *explicit removed* [2009-03-13 01:14:35] <CaptainFlinders> lol [2009-03-13 01:14:39] <CaptainFlinders> I thought I was on ignore [2009-03-13 01:15:02] <alaric[GRAN]> let me guess you want to be perma zi is that right? [2009-03-13 01:15:45] <alaric[GRAN]> common keep talking whats the matter cat got your tounge [2009-03-13 01:15:50] <CaptainFlinders> dude, I'm the one trying to discuss payment. You're the one getting hostile. If I'm ignored then so be it. uhm, says 100 tech there, and it is 60mil now. These logs are being presented as proof Flinders was trying to work out payment, of the money he owes as part of the mp program. yet it is talking about 100 Tech. So these are either the wrong logs, miss edited or just the wrong issue all together. That is what I am talking about. Can't see how this conversation about 100 Tech is the same as 60 mil. Not seeing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsoxbronco1 Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 uhm, says 100 tech there, and it is 60mil now. These logs are being presented as proof Flinders was trying to work out payment, of the money he owes as part of the mp program. yet it is talking about 100 Tech. So these are either the wrong logs, miss edited or just the wrong issue all together. That is what I am talking about. Can't see how this conversation about 100 Tech is the same as 60 mil. Not seeing it. There may be an issue of context. GRAN has claimed that in addition to the money sent for a MP, they also sent him 100 tech right after he joined. That is where the 100 tech is coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 23, 2009 Report Share Posted March 23, 2009 uhm, says 100 tech there, and it is 60mil now. These logs are being presented as proof Flinders was trying to work out payment, of the money he owes as part of the mp program. yet it is talking about 100 Tech. So these are either the wrong logs, miss edited or just the wrong issue all together. That is what I am talking about. Can't see how this conversation about 100 Tech is the same as 60 mil. Not seeing it. The main thing is that they show that they started to talk about paying back the money before he was sentenced to ZI. And well. That the 100 tech is a part of the 60 mill reps. They also show the complete lack of respect GRAN has when Flinders actually try to talk to them regarding the payment of the money. They later show that the EZI thing was just because GRAN wanted to throw a fit, as Flinders was respectful and as I said, wanted to pay back the money long before ZI was brought to the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 The main thing is that they show that they started to talk about paying back the money before he was sentenced to ZI. And well. That the 100 tech is a part of the 60 mill reps. They also show the complete lack of respect GRAN has when Flinders actually try to talk to them regarding the payment of the money. They later show that the EZI thing was just because GRAN wanted to throw a fit, as Flinders was respectful and as I said, wanted to pay back the money long before ZI was brought to the table. Sorry, not enough there to tell what his tone was before that. Seemed rather like a smart butt there, if that is the way he conducted the rest of the conversation, i don't blame GRAN. Talk very well may have happened but if they don't reach an agreement, then bad things happen. Talks don't ness mean things work out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Talk very well may have happened There we go. The first step to overcoming the sickness is admission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilkenny Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I am looking for your admiration I agree that Flinders is not a knight in white armour here Let's say that someone gives you 10.000 because you're having a rough patch. A while later, your friendship wither and you drift away. Is it all right of them to tell you to pay the money back, and when you say "sure", they decide to punch you in the face instead? And Flinders offered to repay them, not Agreed Nice of you to agree with me there. See that wasn't so hard was it?? Cut and Paste quotes FTW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 (edited) Nice of you to agree with me there. See that wasn't so hard was it?? Cut and Paste quotes FTW. I think you just lost the game. And the next days will show you why. I'll just wait until the rest of the logs are released. You might want to talk a bit to GRAN and get those logs so that you can cut your losses Edited March 24, 2009 by SpiderJerusalem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhawk Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 I think you just lost the game.And the next days will show you why. I'll just wait until the rest of the logs are released. You might want to talk a bit to GRAN and get those logs so that you can cut your losses Sounds like a plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiderJerusalem Posted March 24, 2009 Report Share Posted March 24, 2009 Sounds like a plan. I kind of like you though mhawk. And I am glad you're a reasonable man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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