NEAT Justice

[cheezy]

Thank you .

We always have work as one , and we will continue to do it, even if i was the leader all i would be is the representative face of all the kool kind characters of the alliance.

[Burn1Love]

Best of luck, then. Is Cheezy in charge of it? I like Cheezy, competent leader.

NEAT doesn't have a leader.

[jerdge]

So you're a bloc when convenient, but when you encourage outrage amongst your members and one actually tries to do something about it and it ends up blowing up in your face LoFN isn't a bloc?

Nice logic.

Oh, please...

LoFN was a de facto ODP block and Conscience was just a member of one of the LoFN signatories. He, with an independent initiative of his, asked to a Senator to sanction some GOD/ArGo/whatever member. He knew very well that nobody would have been sanctioned for his request and he would have found himself in bad waters instead, but he followed that path just to state a principle and to show to everybody how that whole situation was a scandal (see below).

Now, saying that an independent initiative of a member of a signatory of an ODP block is representative of the whole block is quite stupid. It's like saying that all the Orange Unity Treaty should be considered "guilty" if, say, a single ODN Nation went nuke rogue. Please be serious and stop posting nonsense.

Not to mention the reason Conscience was asking that for: your party had asked and obtained that a raided Nation got sanctioned, for the only reason that it nuked in response to your aggression, and you didn't think, not even for a moment, of the unjustice of your actions, of your bullying and griefing attitude, of the collateral damage inflicted to five innocent nations that lost their trade. I still remember your pathetic claim that you were only trying to "reduce the damage" you would have had to suffer, when it was clear to everybody (and especially to any actual "professional" raider) that the minimal level of competence implies accepting some damage when deciding to assail someone.

Conscience was darn right in asking that, in a brave attempt to have "the nudity of the king" exposed. The fact that your party was, is and will always remain completely unable to understand the very concepts of bravery, fairness and justice, and instead relies on gathering in larger groups and on whining all the way, doesn't mean that he was wrong.

I'd have thought you people would've learned from me that private channels are -not- FTW. Example: Jerdge, who would've been exonerated, and I screwed, if he had -not- gone into private channels.

The problem weren't the Private Channels, but the Private Channels with one person.

I really don't want to get into the details of this, but a certain number of you later broke the agreement, and reformed NEAT, in secret, and signed a secret protectorate with TRF, which you denied, and almost got TRF killed - I was able to keep that incident mostly under wraps from the rest of the coalition (Ephie deception was widely used with GOD), but if I hadn't, TRF and NEAT would've probably been rolled again. Hell, the OBR might've been too, due to their promise to ensure that you guys followed your terms.

That's interesting information and certainly indicative of NEAT's less than innocent persona behind closed doors. Regardless, GOD policy is that each IC character is different and should any former NEAT reroll, as long as they don't bring past grudges to the table, I see no problem with them forming a new alliance, it can even be based off the former remnants of NEAT for all I care, as long the NEAT name is not specifically used.

What's this other madness again?

The Surrender Terms NEAT signed never mentioned that NEAT should have never been reformed. You two have absolutely no ground to claim that ex-NEATers can't reform NEAT, and it is "interesting information and certainly indicative of your less then innocent persona" that you don't even check what you yourself wrote, before using an half-assed imaginary "version" of it to bully not yet formed, tiny, peaceful and harmless groups of Nation.

Now please go and do your homework and maybe you will then be able to post something meaningful... Bah.

[Edit: striking a bait that apparently went unnoticed... It was there as a trap to later prove a point but... Meh...]

Edited March 17, 2009 by jerdge

[Big Z]

The Surrender Terms NEAT signed never mentioned that NEAT should have never been reformed. You two have absolutely no ground to claim that ex-NEATers can't reform NEAT, and it is "interesting information and certainly indicative of your less then innocent persona" that you don't even check what you yourself wrote, before using an half-assed imaginary "version" of it to bully not yet formed, tiny, peaceful and harmless groups of Nation.

Now please go and do your homework and maybe you will then be able to post something meaningful... Bah.

I never said that NEAT can't be outright reformed. I just think it would be best for all parties involved that the NEAT name not be used, especially in the context of the fact that if all former members of NEAT are sincere in their wishes to move on from the past, that the continual association of NEAT with it's former membership in NONE would be detrimental to that very cause. Perhaps I worded my previous post inappropriately and for that I apologize, my meaning was unclear. Ultimately, it's the reformer's choice whether or not to use the name of NEAT once more but then they would have to continue to abide by the terms set almost a year ago, something I assumed they'd prefer to avoid, which was the reasoning behind a suggestion to avoid using the NEAT name once more.

Also, I find it highly amusing that you claim I'm bullying anyone. NEAT is being allowed to reform and all rerolled or former members have blank slates to work with. If that's bullying, then clearly you're quite naive when it comes to what goes on in the backchannels. But then again, I always did want that global despot graduation certificate from Moo. Perhaps I can finally get it now, since that now I've been accused of bullying for giving leeway and second chances.

[Lord of the Mayflies]

Ask the Mushroom Kingdom how much it costs to defend yourself well. In the long run, it is cheaper to pay the enemy off than it is to prove that you know how to defend yourself with nukes.

But that is just my opinion, and what do I know after 3 years?

Obviously little.

[RKANYZ]

LoFN o7

A collection of alliances randomly victimized.

Edited March 15, 2009 by RKANYZ

[jerdge]

I never said that NEAT can't be outright reformed. I just think it would be best for all parties involved that the NEAT name not be used, especially in the context of the fact that if all former members of NEAT are sincere in their wishes to move on from the past, that the continual association of NEAT with it's former membership in NONE would be detrimental to that very cause. Perhaps I worded my previous post inappropriately and for that I apologize, my meaning was unclear. Ultimately, it's the reformer's choice whether or not to use the name of NEAT once more but then they would have to continue to abide by the terms set almost a year ago, something I assumed they'd prefer to avoid, which was the reasoning behind a suggestion to avoid using the NEAT name once more.

This is reasonable, there's no need that you apologize. My apologies for having mistaken your post, then.

Also, I find it highly amusing that you claim I'm bullying anyone. NEAT is being allowed to reform and all rerolled or former members have blank slates to work with. If that's bullying, then clearly you're quite naive when it comes to what goes on in the backchannels. But then again, I always did want that global despot graduation certificate from Moo. Perhaps I can finally get it now, since that now I've been accused of bullying for giving leeway and second chances.

Good luck with getting that certificate!

(Seriously, given the above misunderstanding you're again correct that that isn't bullying.)

[cheezy]

Im gona make this quite clear...NEAT stands for its own principles, not those of another alliance/block or whatever. We make our own choices as a group and work together to reach our own goals.

We do not feel that the war has 'tarnished' our reputation either, infact, before that incident we were making a reputable name for ourselves as a very reliable tech dealing and friendly alliance. Im sure many alliances who have dealt with us in the past will vouch for this. And regardless about whos right or wrong, this was nearly a year ago now, and we wish to continue to practive our own principles under our known and loved abbreviation, so hows about we all move on?

Thank You.

Edited March 15, 2009 by cheezy

[Burn1Love]

Like cheesy said, why would we change our name?

We haven't changed. We love democracy, we love peace, we compromise and work together well when it comes to alliance issues and we are extremely efficient and organized when it comes to tech deals. We have committed no crimes and have plotted against no alliances. We still love justice and still are completely against tech raiding.

Just because some people attacked us unjustly under misunderstood and falsified information doesn't mean we have a tarnished name. We may re-emerge our name in Digiterra and it will be seeking nothing but peace and justice.

[Quercus]

Obviously little.

Well, let's go off topic then. I am sure we all have opinions regarding MK and their last set of peace terms. I didn't quite catch your's in your logical and eloquent reply, but here are mine.

Link to the MK peace terms.

As I recall, MK was attacked (for what may or may not have been a perfectly legitimate casus belli). They had a first strike nuke policy in place in their military and put on a noteworthy defense against overwhelming odds.

The ended up losing to the curbstomp, but they did alot more damage than their (justified or unjustified) attackers expected. So as a part of their peace treaty they were asked to provide 82000 tech and 200 million in regular payments to their attackers.

If you take the going rate for tech you end up with a figure that is roughly around 2.7 billion in war reparations for defending themselves when they were attacked. Add to that figure the intrinsic cost of 1640 + 67 = 1707 aid packages and I suspect slowed their nations economic growth considerably. You can ask them if you think my suspicion is off.

Add in that one clause of the peace settlement was that they had to swear off and condemn the future employment of their proven method for defending against curbstomps and I'd say they are at face value a whole lot worse off for that fight and subsequent peace settlement.

It would be far cheaper to, say for example provide or hire 20 new nations per month to send the NPO, VE, Echelon and Molon Labe 2000 tech. Over the course of a year MK ends up paying 720 million and 240 aid slots to send their new "friends" 24000 tech, ensuring the goodwill of the powers that be, while maintaining a legal right to first strike nuke when they are attacked.

Considering that the game is only 3 years old, after 3 years, MK would have paid about 2.16 billion and only used 720 aid slots. Which is far less than they paid for their two week defense last August. Sure it slows their growth slightly (like all parasitic arrangements tend to) but in the long run, they come out way ahead economically, diplomatically and even strategically since they don't have to renege on a signed peace treaty to use nukes to defend themselves.

Now this might be unpalatable to most people who play this game- after all, isn't it supposed to be better to die standing than live on your knees. But we all aren't Mexican freedom fighters and we weren't actually discussing the correctness of such an arrangement, only the relative cost of each option. The bean counters say that over the span of a couple of years it's cheaper to pay protection money than it is to fight and get stomped. And if you do it long enough, your members should grow strong enough, organized enough and experienced enough to figure out a way to eventually not have to pay.

For an alliance of non-fanatics, it's really all about learning to get along with the people who run this game. And in my opinion that is why FARK is a sanctioned alliance while both GOONs and LUE are footnotes in history.

But once again, what do I know after three years in this game?

[Experimentum]

Disclosure Statement: As a Knight in Exile, I in no way speak for the current administration of OBR.

__________________________

Burn1, I never had any love for you and neither did a number of the other Knights. Frankly, it was not your rhetoric in its entirety we had a problem with but your presentation of it. You’re not doing your brethren any favors by reappearing here. Indeed, you’re compromising their legal ability to reform unmolested.

NEAT as a whole struck us as mind-bogglingly disorganized and a wonder of confusion in motion. To put it lightly, we were at a loss over how the alliance managed to accomplish so much as deciding who would post the poll in order to conduct a vote – which was required for absolutely every move you made. (Did you hold a vote on who would post the poll? How did you arrive upon the person to post the poll to vote on who would post the poll about whatever matter you were originally attempting to decide?) That aside we found the majority of NEAT members with whom we’d been in contact to be good-natured, generous sorts deserving of a chance. If not for that disposition and the insistence of then-Page W_A_R (who worked extremely hard behind the scenes because he wanted very much to reward you for being such reliable Tech vendors), The Factum de Gremio Rosa never would have been seriously considered. Even then, Her Highness saw granting Protectorate Status as a bit much of a prize for a group of nations that honored – as all nations should – their business agreements. A bonus payment of three million to each NEAT nation seemed a more reasonable compensation for your admittedly consistent service.

We haven't changed. We love democracy, we love peace, we compromise and work together well when it comes to alliance issues and we are extremely efficient and organized when it comes to tech deals. We have committed no crimes and have plotted against no alliances. We still love justice and still are completely against tech raiding.

Disregarding for the moment your impression of your leadership (and yes, despite the protestations of NEAT’s membership, you have always obviously been, at the very least, the most influential voice in the organization), your statement above appears designed to induce your readers here to believe NEAT was the pinnacle of cooperation and peaceful coexistence. That’s false.

<--- click to enlarge

As seen here, between 9 May 2008 and 13 May 2008 in NEAT’s former embassy at OBR, you and two other members clearly disclose your policies on “anti-raiding-raiding” and aggressive wars. The simple fact that such guidelines existed would seem to put to rest any notion that NEAT was a new Grey Council. Your own elaboration on what NEAT would view as justification for an aggressive war and the deliberately loose definitions surrounding those justifications drives the point home that NEAT was not at all a completely benign alliance under your influence. Taken together, and as logic would demand, it is impossible to regard NEAT as an alliance that does not “plot” against other alliances if it also engages in “anti-raiding-raiding,” and “aggressive wars.” The simple act of conducting either operation involves plotting from its very inception.

I recently heard that OBR was taking responsibility for their inaction and this brings me much joy and closure on long over due justice.

If you’re going to bring up a fact or historical reference, please be informed about that which you speak. I’m sure all of Digiterra is ecstatic over your sense of righteous fulfillment, but it is a disservice to your readers to lead them to believe you have a full grasp of the events you mention.

The Order Of The Black Rose never issued an official apology for its treatment of NEAT. I did. I personally apologized to NEAT as a whole for not supporting Sirs Yenisey, Gwalchfaen, and Quercus as they appealed, behind closed doors, to OBR’s conscience and sense of nobility. I apologized for not arguing to uphold the spirit of The Factum de Gremio Rosa. I apologized for not exercising my influence as First Knight to affect a more honorable outcome. The OBR, it’s Queen, nor it’s present Knight Protector, Sir Neboe, has done any such thing and until that day comes it is not only inappropriate but entirely inaccurate to ascribe an apology to them. The foundation upon which you base your original post is utterly false.

Burn1, as I implied earlier, do your friends a favor: fade away. They’re a good bunch of guys and you’re burying them with every utterance. As I recall, one of the main justifications for the decimation of NEAT – behind high-level, inter-alliance closed doors – was your personal affiliation with Walford and NONE and the level of influence you held within your alliance. Starting this thread was nothing more than an attempt at personal aggrandizement, a wish to reclaim some measure of perceived previous international influence, and an inability to refrain from saying “I toldja so” (regardless of its accuracy). You know it’s true.

By authoring this thread you have brought unwanted attention on the peaceful reformation of NEAT, called into question your friends’ and compatriots’ intentions with your inaccuracies and misinformation, and compromised their futures by reminding us all of… you.

[Burn1Love]

You are right we did have a policy of 65% majority on aggressive wars and any member could call for a second revote for any reason. We weren't the GGA and did recognize times in which war was justified. We did attack unaligned nations and alliances under 10 who were complusive tech raiders. Some large alliances attack those size alliances for the purpose of tech raiding. We also warned everyone at least once (most 3 times), urging them to peace up. However, like Ulji stated in your screenshot, that policy was at the beginning of our creation and didn't last long.

We had multiple admins on our forums and others who posted polls to be voted on. It wasn't just me and of course, I did not get everything I wanted. Or we would have been all yellow sooner and would have had a variety of things different. To say re other members blindly followed me is an insult to them.

I also had no involvemet with none and you can falsly accuse me all you want but until you show the evidence, it will remain just that, false.

Finally, I did not force my way back into NEAT, I asked if I was welcome and they responded "of course".

You do not understand the new wine which NEAT has been offering and have been trying to put it in old wineskins. You were not a member and do not understand our relationship with one another. The point is, we were victimized under false accusations of being part of NONE and people hate us because they don't understand us. We have done no offense to anyone here that has been attacking our name.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Burn1Love

[Aloop]

We have done no offense to anyone here that has been attacking our name.

Your (IC) existence and your attitude offend me.

Edit: Also, your wine analogy offends me.

Edited March 16, 2009 by Aloop

[Burn1Love]

Your (IC) existence and your attitude offend me.

Edit: Also, your wine analogy offends me.

Sounds like a personal problem to me.

[General Ulji]

Experimentum, with all due respect, I don't think you could be more off base with B1L's influence in our alliance [you just come across sounding petty]. Voting was without exception always done with every member having equal vote. Anyone could vote, and forgive the slap here, but we got more done in this manner than you guys did following the queen. [The "vote for a vote" comment is kinda childish. I mean, really?]

Unlike yourself, I've been "under the Rose" and in NEAT. Sure I didn't have full access to the inner sanctum as a knight did, but I was able to see enough of the workings while in Blackwater to know it was a retirement home more than an alliance; thats why I left, you guys are a great group, but you just never risked anything.

You are however damn straight that raiding a raider is no different than flat out techraiding. What can I say? I was 0 days old when I joined NEAT. It was rather hypocritical and self-righteous, but no more than talking of honor and typing in old English. Hopefully we'll both live and learn.

When it comes down to it, we're just a bunch of friends (B1L included) who enjoy counting and reading CHeezy's drunken posts. Sure we could do that in peace mode, but as I think B1L has enumerated multiple times, we'd like to see peace in Digiterra/Bob and don't really care if its achieved by Bilrow or Walford. Our aim is just to assit in that manner however possible.

[Experimentum]

[The "vote for a vote" comment is kinda childish. I mean, really?]

That’s called a joke, Ulji. NEAT has repeatedly espoused direct democracy so adamantly that some have wondered just how far you take it.

You and I have never before had a cross word. It’s sad to see the development here.

Unlike yourself, I've been "under the Rose" and in NEAT. Sure I didn't have full access to the inner sanctum as a knight did, but I was able to see enough of the workings while in Blackwater to know it was a retirement home more than an alliance; thats why I left, you guys are a great group, but you just never risked anything.

“Under the Rose.” Interesting phrase. I’ve never heard it before.

As a former subject of Her Highness, you should know quite well that far more was transpiring behind the scenes than was visible to a soldier. Every Page knows the same from simple observation. Long after OBR had stepped in, entirely negated NEAT’s suit for peace, and established terms we found more to our liking regardless of your wishes, you and your brethren were very nearly as in the dark once you’d become soldiers. That fact in and of itself demonstrates the difference between proper organization and a bunch of friends having a good time. Indeed what we did on behalf of NEAT was considered in error by a measure that has never been discussed openly. There were people that actually had some notion of what we were doing. A perfectly executed operation, by OBR standards, is one that is successfully completed without a soul ever the wiser about what was done. I suppose one can say it’s akin to conning a mark out of his money and sending him off convinced he conned you.

If it’s any consolation, I’ll tell you this: Working in OBR administration is not fun. It is not done as if a group of older players have come together to play a game. It’s highly professional, meticulously calculated, painstakingly documented, secretive like you wouldn’t believe, and, essentially, what you would expect of a group of RL professionals that brought their business practices home with them and poured them into what should be a pastime.

You are however damn straight that raiding a raider is no different than flat out techraiding. What can I say? I was 0 days old when I joined NEAT. It was rather hypocritical and self-righteous, but no more than talking of honor and typing in old English. Hopefully we'll both live and learn.

You really shouldn’t have said all that in public, Ulji. A quote from The Lion in Winter for your benefit:

Henry II: I found out the way your mind works and the kind of man you are. I know your plans and expectations - you've burbled every bit of strategy you've got. I know exactly what you will do, and exactly what you won't, and I've told you exactly nothing. To these aged eyes, boy, that's what winning looks like!

[General Ulji]

All well said! I have come to expect no less from a knight.

You really shouldn’t have said all that in public, Ulji.

Burn1Love coming back, logging into the NEAT boards, and posting here; to me, this is winning the game. A life has been reborn as far as I'm concerned, to quote our favorite author, "What was lost is now found!" This is far better than any war-chest I could accumulate or wonder I could buy.

PS Now it would be a great coup if Morath (aka Autoerotica) came back too.

PPS [OOC] I do sincerely apologize for any mockery and/or offense to your style of RP, you must understand by now that my emotions often get the better of me! [/OOC]

[Latenighthobo]

Yes, completely ignore the majority of Sir Yenisey's post why don't you. He explicitly states that it was very likely that LoFN = NONE and that IF LoFN wasn't completely alike what NONE was back in the day at that present time, it "certainly was not all that long ago". He also stated that NEAT was heavily involved in this enterprise, from the very beginning. I don't know how you can get much more damning than that.

With your brilliant logic, you would fit in quite well with Vox. They could probably use your help right about now.

Your (IC) existence and your attitude offend me.

Edit: Also, your wine analogy offends me.

This post has been edited by Aloop: Today, 01:42 PM

Do you want some Ibuprofen for your pains? We can't really help with the first two all of those besides giving you some counseling.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Latenighthobo

[Aurion]

With your brilliant logic, you would fit in quite well with Vox. They could probably use your help right about now.

Congratulations on failing to read the thread.

[Aloop]

With your brilliant logic, you would fit in quite well with Vox. They could probably use your help right about now.

It would be far too easy to make a snide remark along the lines of "NO U!" about the brainpower it took to formulate that response. Indeed, it seems that I already have.

[General Ulji]

[ooc]Not to derail the stimulating conversation going on above, but I do believe I owe OBR an apology for several OOC comments I've made in my exchange with Experimentum. Sorry guys, clearly I lost a little cool...[/ooc]

[Experimentum]

[ooc]Not to derail the stimulating conversation going on above, but I do believe I owe OBR an apology for several OOC comments I've made in my exchange with Experimentum. Sorry guys, clearly I lost a little cool...[/ooc]

OOC: *hug

Don’t sweat it, buddy. Most of OBR currently hates my character anyway.

I’ll admit, although I came to regret the methods we used to get you all off the hook, for the longest time I was burning with anger at the lot of you. On the same weekend as your crisis my 80-year-old grandmother (with whom I’m very close and speak with daily) had been rushed to the hospital for heart trouble. The woman who plays Her Highness had relatives visiting from nearly a thousand miles away. The whole time we were both checking into OBR every 30-45 minutes, all day and all night long for three days straight, in order to fix your situation. What really drove us (and me particularly) up a wall was all the… well… b*tching some of you were throwing our way while we busted our butts in RL… over numbers on a monitor… and the imaginary constructs we call nations and alliances.

It took me a long while to get past that frustration and what appeared to be a total lack of gratitude on NEAT’s part. Eventually the woman that plays Her Highness made a comment that caused me to reevaluate. She said, “They had no idea what we were sacrificing offline.”

As my character earlier remarked – even in this instance of a poorly performed operation according to OBR standards – it’s extremely rare for a soldier or Page to have any idea of just how much is going on in the Round Table at any given moment.

Now, back to the IC mudslinging. Keep it up. I know we can top 3000 views if we go at each others throats with a bit more zeal.

IC:

I also had no involvemet with none and you can falsly accuse me all you want but until you show the evidence, it will remain just that, false.

In answer, my very favorite quote from The Lion in Winter:

Prince Geoffrey: I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know [Digiterra] knows, and [Digiterra] knows we know it.

[General Ulji]

[ooc] Hindsight is 20/20, and of course the first time the pixels go away, its pretty traumatic, but (I hope!) you get used to it [/ooc]

Back to mudslinging:

Hey, jackweed, I get more action in a week than you've had your entire life. I've got tents in PyongYang, Seoul, and Busan each one of them with a Karaoke Room. So I suggest you wipe that stupid smile off your face before I come over there and smack it off! You feelin' strong, my friend? Call me nube one more time.

[Experimentum]

[ooc] Hindsight is 20/20, and of course the first time the pixels go away, its pretty traumatic, but (I hope!) you get used to it [/ooc]

Back to mudslinging:

Hey, jackweed, I get more action in a week than you've had your entire life. I've got tents in PyongYang, Seoul, and Busan each one of them with a Karaoke Room. So I suggest you wipe that stupid smile off your face before I come over there and smack it off! You feelin' strong, my friend? Call me nube one more time.

OOC: You do get used to it. Painfully so. Eventually you won't care if your numbers are going up or down.

IC: I believe the proper spelling is newb, newb.

[Big Z]

With your brilliant logic, you would fit in quite well with Vox. They could probably use your help right about now.

Interjecting with some comment about Vox has become the new gold standard for debate it seems.

Don't know what you're talking about? Worried about others calling into question your intellectual abilities? Can't quite grasp what everyone is saying? Don't worry, there's a new product out there that may be just right for you. It's called the "Vox Sentence Generator". Just insert the name of the intended into the generator and it'll spit out a custom generated sentence with the word Vox included! It's sure to deflect attention off your argument (or lack thereof). You'll never have to worry about your deficiencies anymore. With one touch of a button, the "Vox Sentence Generator" will solve all your problems*. So what are you waiting for, get it today!

*Actual results may vary.