NEAT Justice

[Burn1Love]

Greetings all of Digiterra,

I will keep this short. As I am guessing most or some of you know, NEAT was wrongfully destroyed being accused of being a "puppet alliance" of LoFN. This was completely false. Furthermore, our closest friends and our protector failed to defend our honor. OBR and CPCN are the two that stick out in my mind. To stick the dagger in even further, my closest friends from NEAT were swallowed into the military arm of OBR. I recently heard that OBR was taking responsibility for their inaction and this brings me much joy and closure on long over due justice.

I founded NEAT to provide a safe alliance for nations to grow in size in peace and free from all forms of tyranny in this world. We practiced direct democracy with no one nation in power over another. We stood against tech raiding on our own and we made friends with all who were willing. We thrived until we were wrongfully accused and our friends failed to honor commitments. With the help of OBR and CPCN we could have defeated our oppressors (we had treaties with both).

Although, I am not here to condemn today. I am here to say thank you to OBR for their continued investigation. I am also here to leave some comments to a few.

To those who may wish to continue NEAT, I bless your endeavors. I ask that you always remember re principles of love, peace and compromise. Grow to be strong and always keep up the struggle for justice. Take what you have learned in the past and grow stronger from those experiences. Most importantly, keep the culture of NEAT alive and rich in idealism.

To OBR: admission of guilt is the first step. You owe it to every nation of NEAT to find a new creative way to honor that treaty and/or find some way to rectify your past. Also be sure it doesnt happen again. Theworst feelingin the world is to have friends who you have been loyal to, betray you and not honor their agreements.

To CPCN (or whover you are now) I urge you to actually stand up for those being oppressed by the upper classes in this world. The revolution won't fight for itself. Don't become those who we stand against as brothers against class suppression.

Finally, to the rest of Digiterra. Take NEAT's story as a lesson that truth and justice alwas prevail in the end. Always be consistent and never ending in your struggle for peace, love and freedom from the tyrants in this world. Free yourselves and never sacrifice your liberties for security.

I leave you with this promise. Wherever there is class struggle; I will be there. Wherever there is one nation standing against 100's of bullies; I'll be with him. Wherever there is a struggle against those who think their strength creates truth; I'll be on the front lines.

I will see this thread to completion and then Burn1Love will only be a distant memory and perhaps a war cry for the abused, and oppressed.

Peace and Love,

Burn1Love

Edited March 13, 2009 by Burn1Love

[Homura]

Burn1Love, don't feel you need to disappear forever. While I may not agree with you in entirety, you were part of something that you believed in, and succumbing to cruel injustices does your cause no good. Be proud of your accomplishments, short lived as they were.

Also,

)): Ephie )):

[Thizzland]

What an unexpected surprise. Good to hear from you again, B1L. B)

[Burn1Love]

Burn1Love, don't feel you need to disappear forever. While I may not agree with you in entirety, you were part of something that you believed in, and succumbing to cruel injustices does your cause no good. Be proud of your accomplishments, short lived as they were.

Also,

)): Ephie )):

Believe me, we the people of Burn1Love are proud to have been able to associate and work with those we did. We are also forever grateful to those whom supported us the whole time. Those nations know who they are. Every nation that was a part of NEAT is a great nation in my mind.

The people of Burn1Love have done all they can, and will be no more. However, life for the just does not end, and my promise which was made is true. I will be on the front lines of every fight for justice despite the odds. Where there is struggle against tyrants, I will be there. That is a promise.

[General Ulji]

Thanks for posting again B1L!!! It is certainly good to hear you again. I do wish you would stay and continue the good fight, the regathering has already started. Only this time, I think we'll go for nNEAT (nuclear Nations Empowered Against Totalitarianism).

PS: At least change your AA from "NEAT" to "Nations Empowered Against Totalitarianism" before you expire into the shadows again.

[Xiphosis]

Good to see the same old false sense of oppression and moral high ground is still running strong. Is it at all possible for you guys to step back for two seconds and realize where you went wrong?

Grow up. There's no training wheels in CN.

Edited March 13, 2009 by Xiphosis

[CptGodzilla]

you make it sound like you are more innocent than a nation who hasn't even joined CN yet

everyone does something wrong; your mistake just happened to end the alliance

[Burn1Love]

What crimes or mistakes did we make?

[cheezy]

B1L :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

[Tritonia]

Welcome back, Chief. Hope you stick around a while.

Is it at all possible for you guys to step back for two seconds and realize where you went wrong?

Hello Pot, my name is Kettle.

[jerdge]

Burn1Love, please don't leave CN.

If you don't intend participate in NEAT anymore you can surely do something else (I myself have a couple of ideas...)

Please stay.

Also, welcome back. As I had occasion to say I always liked your and NEAT's style and ideas.

[General Ulji]

Good to see the same old false sense of oppression and moral high ground is still running strong. Is it at all possible for you guys to step back for two seconds and realize where you went wrong?

Grow up. There's no training wheels in CN.

Why all the hate? The man wants to vent about knights and commies, isn't that all the rage these days?

[Earogema]

Burn1Love, don't feel you need to disappear forever. While I may not agree with you in entirety, you were part of something that you believed in, and succumbing to cruel injustices does your cause no good. Be proud of your accomplishments, short lived as they were.

Also,

)): Ephie )):

Fun fact. Ephie was the first one to ever nuke me.

)): Ephraim )):

[Bob]

While your point is valid that OBR should have helped you, CPCN had no treaty with you and as such had no obligation to defend you. OBR should have, but that would not have won you the war. You were losing this war regardless of what OBR did.

[Burn1Love]

CPCN had a long standing ODP with us at that time. While, I understand it was their option, I think it was a cause which any nation who considers themselves a communist; they would have fought for this just cause. With their support, OBR's support and the support of other alliances we were close to (which I will not name for various reasons) we would have won the war.

The point is, we were not in the wrong in any way and our friends, allies and lovers of justice across digiterra failed to act. It was an opportunity to act which was just and had potential to make a big change. Instead we saw inaction.

My post here is not to condemn but to point out that as time has passed, we can see that we were in fact innocent and that our destruction was unjust. I am pointing this out so that in the future this same scenerio doesn't happen to any other alliances. It is rather a call to action and self evaluation to those who consider themselves lovers of freedom and justice. Are you all talk or are we united as brothers, ready to sacrifice our lives for a chance at a more just digiterra.

Security or freedom? The choice is yours.

[Bob]

CPCN had a long standing ODP with us at that time. While, I understand it was their option, I think it was a cause which any nation who considers themselves a communist; they would have fought for this just cause. With their support, OBR's support and the support of other alliances we were close to (which I will not name for various reasons) we would have won the war.

What? How does the fact that they are communists change a thing? And apparently, you don't seem to understand CN politics. If you don't have NPO on your side, you have already lost with the forces against you. I doubt you can somehow come up with an ally list that would be enough to take Superfriends and VE's MDPs partners (I believe VE and GOD were involved).

The point is, we were not in the wrong in any way and our friends, allies and lovers of justice across digiterra failed to act. It was an opportunity to act which was just and had potential to make a big change. Instead we saw inaction.

What? There was no potential to make a big change, only for some more alliances to die for your cause. As stated, while OBR should have because they were obligated to, you have no right to claim that people that you don't have treaties with should have defended you and that CPCN on a ODP had no obligation to defend you when the evidence showed that you were a part of NONE (which has been disproven, but that doesn't influence their decision).

My post here is not to condemn but to point out that as time has passed, we can see that we were in fact innocent and that our destruction was unjust. I am pointing this out so that in the future this same scenerio doesn't happen to any other alliances. It is rather a call to action and self evaluation to those who consider themselves lovers of freedom and justice.

Many alliances have been innocent. You aren't any different from them. No one will change based off your post, because guess what? Screenshots from a reputable source are typically accepted and are considered a valid CB. While they have been disproved by time, in the moment, you were guilty.

Are you all talk or are we united as brothers, ready to sacrifice our lives for a chance at a more just digiterra.

Security or freedom? The choice is yours.

I don't know what you are going on about here and I don't think I care to know. I am for the freedom of sovereign alliances and I do consider the destruction of NEAT an injustice, but not one with anyone culpable except for EphriamGrey. GOD and VE owe you no apology for they did what they thought was best given the evidence they had.

[Quercus]

Maybe you had 25 alliances hiding in the wood work, but I did some planning for us to help you in that war and the way I called it was that we lose on the ladder where the focus of main effort should have occurred and $%&@ the the upper reaches where the conflict was largely trivial. Now I could be wrong, but I have been planning wars for a very long time in this game and generally can tell which side will win and where in their NS distribution, I fought alot of losing wars and was never even once dumb enough to think that we actually would win. I know what it looks like going into a losing fight.

When honor is at stake, being able to win shouldn't matter, I used to be in an alliance that figured that it was better to be dead than some alliances tech farm. After watching what became of our allies back then, it turns out we were right in that case. But just for argument's sake, what would be better, to help an alliance like NEAT rebuild at the cost of a couple of billion, or to fight a serious war in their defense where they all get ZI'ed and then get saddled with 5 billion in reparations, all of which is to be paid in tech? Now I wont shy away from calling the OBR's courage into question, I was in the back rooms calling for us to honor the spirit of our agreement and not some legal interpreatation. But trust me, strategically I was wrong.

The last thing you want is the Unholy Trebuchette coming into a conflict to help you out. The OBR doesn't have the ability or training to fight a conventional war, our military doctrine is designed to hit back and to prolong the enemy pain for as long as possible. We use large nations to nuke first and then at every opportunity after that for as long as our ridiculous warchests can support it. That is the kind of help that you don't need, because all it does is make the big nations who run things in the alliances that were trying to justify their tech raid on you suffer. And if they lose a crap load of infra, you will end up paying for it in the end. Ask the Mushroom Kingdom how much it costs to defend yourself well. In the long run, it is cheaper to pay the enemy off than it is to prove that you know how to defend yourself with nukes.

Sure if your suicidal you can go the perma ZI route and tell them to shove their fist up their own behind parts, but that isn't exactly going to allow you to continue to play the game. At least with the cash buyout route, your nations could spend a little time in Blackwater, get their feet back under them and head off to MHA or wherever else they want to go with a clean slate. It is up to the Ulji's of the world to decide if that is better or worse.

If you want an admission of guilt from me, you have it, in that instance we turned out to be an alliance founded to preserve infrastructure instead of an alliance founded to preserve the ideals of chivalry. And I am certain that next time we look to treaty with somebody that they will have to think long and hard about taking our word on things.

But if we had helped you, I think that you wouldn't be here today to post this. The people that put the bullseye on you would have run you out of the game for not being able to pay them enough to recoup their losses from the 600 nukes that wrecked their leaders nations. Nukes are the last thing in the game that prevents the profitable curbstomp. You launch them and you will spend sixth months feeding your enemies everything that they ask for, or being forced to play from under 1000NS, or hanging up this fine game for a better pastime.

But that is just my opinion, and what do I know after 3 years?

[Burn1Love]

My point wasn't that a great war would have been started. You don't think that if OBR, CPCN and all our other friends and allies would have said, "kill LoFN but NEAT is innocent" before the war escalated that we wouldn't have been saved? Diplomacy could have been used. That's all I am saying.

Injustices happen because people skip diplomacy and go straight to war. Why weren't we even questioned or approached?

Either way, that time is over and I have forgiven all parties. I just want to make everyone aware that we were completely innocent and yet we were destroyed. This happens all the time in Digiterra. How do we make progress so it doesn't happen?

[General Ulji]

Hard to argue with your logic Quercus. After buying my 10th wonder, its doubtful that my country would be were it was today without the assistance of BW and some of the knights of OBR. Still seeing my casualy count just south of my wonder list on my nation info screen makes it a little bittersweet.

Sadly this is just one of those situations where one can probably never really get to a sense of 100% satisfaction. Face it, life isn't fair, nor is it intended to be. I think all parties involved have said their peice and in my humble opinion I think we should let this one lay...

[Big Z]

Considering the fact that OBR came to the same conclusions about LoFN and NEAT's involvement as we did about a month before our assault, I fail to see where your claims of innocence hold any water whatsoever.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Big Z

[Burn1Love]

Considering the fact that OBR came to the same conclusions about LoFN and NEAT's involvement as we did about a month before our assault, I fail to see where your claims of innocence hold any water whatsoever.

What are you talking about? If they thought we were guilty a month before you; why did they sign treaty with us? Do you still think we are not innocent despite the evidence that has come out? Are you confused? I don't understand your post.

[Big Z]

What are you talking about? If they thought we were guilty a month before you; why did they sign treaty with us? Do you still think we are not innocent despite the evidence that has come out? Are you confused? I don't understand your post.

May 9th. We declared war late May.

[Tritonia]

Really? GOD & Co. came to the conclusion that: "The LoFN claims to be a meeting and discussion facility for small alliances away from the main CN forum"?

How many times do I have to tell you that you had (and likely still have) a gross misconception of what NONE/LoFN's primary function was, not to mention the level of involvement NEAT as an independent alliance had with it.

Edit: Misquote.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Tritonia

[Big Z]

Really? GOD & Co. came to the conclusion that: "The LoFN claims to be a meeting and discussion facility for small alliances away from the main CN forum"?

How many times do I have to tell you that you had (and likely still have) a gross misconception of what NONE/LoFN's primary function was, not to mention the level of involvement NEAT as an independent alliance had with it.

Edit: Misquote.

Yes, completely ignore the majority of Sir Yenisey's post why don't you. He explicitly states that it was very likely that LoFN = NONE and that IF LoFN wasn't completely alike what NONE was back in the day at that present time, it "certainly was not all that long ago". He also stated that NEAT was heavily involved in this enterprise, from the very beginning. I don't know how you can get much more damning than that.

[Tritonia]

Yes, completely ignore the majority of Sir Yenisey's post why don't you.

I didn't ignore it. It simply seemed irrelevant since it goes something like this:

1. Walford founded NONE.

2. NONE seeks to bring organization and military cooperation to unaligned nations.

3. Walford was laughed at and shunned.

4. NONE recedes into the background.

5. LoFN forms from NONE.

6. NEAT was involved in LoFN.

All of which are valid observations.

He explicitly states that it was very likely that LoFN = NONE and that IF LoFN wasn't completely alike what NONE was back in the day at that present time, it "certainly was not all that long ago". He also stated that NEAT was heavily involved in this enterprise, from the very beginning. I don't know how you can get much more damning than that.

Now, which one of the 6 above points is "damning"?

That NONE was a military force? Everyone has a right to self defense. The members of NONE cooperated out of enlightened self-interest.

Unless association with Walford is a punishable offense (as several people believe it to be), then there's really nothing "bad" suggested in the entire post. Even then, NEAT as an entity had very little contact with Walford.

Edit: I should also mention that "from the very beginning" could be misconstrued. NEAT was young when it arrived at LoFN, but it was an independent project that Burn1Love started on his own. It was not, as we might say, a "home-grown" product from LoFN.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Tritonia