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Missile Discussion between Maelstrom and Mudd


hawk11
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I'm sick of this. All I'm getting from both sides is a circular argument from both sides coming back to these stealth missiles that were deemed impossible after they were used. We're having a sit down right now and discussing how we can settle this, because both sides seem to have a problem and a solution they want to push. I've got one side saying that if they were impossible they should have been caught mid-testing and completely scrapped. I've got one side saying that the missiles should not have been scrapped in testing and instead found to be non-stealth in flight due to scientific error. Both sides are going about as if their side is right, and it should be obvious for RP canon that this cannot occur without issues.

Therefore, the two sides are going to come in here and state their cases. We will have no outside interference from anyone else. No allies, no enemies, no observers, no nothing. I don't want people posting that they're watching this topic "with interest," I don't want people posting their perspective, I don't want people posting their asinine comments. The only people who should post in this topic are moderators, GMs, and the two involved parties. While I may not be able to actually ban you from posting in this thread, I think you should be able to appreciate what I'm trying to do here and leave it alone. It does not involve anyone except for the people listed in the topic description.

Now I would like Maelstrom and Mudd to come in here and present their cases on the issue in a professional manner. You are both under scrutiny.

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My argument is very simple really:

The missiles were explicitly tested for stealth. I am not a rocket scientist, but still like to tinker with high tech ideas that may be feasible. I asked for a GM ruling, Sargun said they could work unless someone disproved them. Obviously if they were disproven they would not work. Due to testing, if they were disproven, they would not exist. I did ask multiple times for a yes/no ruling from the GM's available at the time, but one was on vacation and one didn't want to come on to post, that said I did the best with what I had and went ahead and initiated the attack after the only responses I got were, "This is not possible." Without an explanation why while the research I did (about an hours worth) indicated they potentially were. i even had citations for the research including the BHO Black Hole Ocarina engine system which reduces 95% of engine IR signatures.

Finally, after I had fired the missiles, I got into a discussion in IRC with LVN about whether or not the missiles could work and this time he actually had a sound argument, instead of just saying they would not work, we went line by line to figure out what would and would not work. Finally we got to the point where they were in orbit.. they would have been stealthy up to that point, but we determined space ionization caused by Earth's magnetic field would result in plasma sheathing that would make the missile much more visible to radar, especially on re-entry.

I then voluntarily pulled my missiles from canon and attempted to take the related RP with it, because that would have been caught by the radars of my nation during the testing phase and the missile would have never come into bulk production in a non-stealth state to be launched.

This is the testing thread.

With there being no attack, Mudd would not be pissed at me, nor would Triyun, we would be back to normal peaceful relations. At the time of launch, I was hoping the reaction wouldn't be like this over a conventional missile strike and that Mudd would have just rolled with the punches with the missiles in the canon state of being stealth at the time and be like "Where'd those come from?"" But not what has happened sadly.

In my eyes there are two feasible and acceptable resolutions..

1. The missiles did not exist as they failed testing (and they were explicitly tested for stealth). No strikes occurred. There is no war nor a motive for war.

2. The missiles do exist in the state they were tested in successfully and that GM's approved. Tahoe has no idea what hit it.

I currently view the IC war as little more than an OOC vendetta.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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The most important issue here is precedent. Do we allow people to pull away from RPs when it does not go there way, refusing to accept things that do not work in their advantage? That is what is occuring here.

Maelstrom has/had long range missiles that he developed. I accept that. I accept that he launched them at me following Lavo's nuclear counterstrike and they caused significant damage (those that made it through the SDI, at least). What I do not accept, is that once a stealth technology is proven impossible (the reason MV pulled his missiles is that the technology was proven impossible) that makes the missiles disappear as well. Quite often in real life, technology works brilliantly in testing...and fails miserably in actual use.

I think that allowing people to withdraw from canon-RP because they decide their technology suddenly doesn't work after being proven is little more than a cheap out when things don't go their way.

Finally, a quote from your testing thread:

"We doubt the stealth technology will render them completely undetectable. The reason we are using the technology is we fear those with better interception capabilities able to hurl many missiles have a technological and numerical advantage. We merely seek an even battlefield. This will give us that."

You yourself admit the missiles are not completely undetectable. How can you justify admitting that, then suddenly deciding they actually are undetectable when it suits you, then retracting your claims about it being undetectable when it suits you once more?

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You assume I am pulling out because the RP is "not going my way". In fact, I see my situation as favorable. You and UFE are both under nuclear duress I actually perceive myself in a position of advantage with intact infrastructure and weapons that could bring your nations medical systems and manpower to their knees. With the nukes hitting major cities, you can't tell me your disease defense systems are going to successfully fend off a biochemical attack right now.

The doubt was proven mistaken in testing. All scientists have doubts, but since no one proved to me they would not work nor made a claim against them working. I went forward under the canonized acceptance of them being stealth capable. Sargun affirmed this canonization. So either you accept canon, or the missiles don't exist. Ergo, options 1 and 2. I can voluntarily withdraw them, but you cannot "unaccept them as canonized" at your convenience. In my eyes, you are the one wanting the mulligan or to avoid the results of the RP.

My pulling my weapons was in fact a good will to let you not be hit by "undetectable stealth missiles." because I don't like forcing things down people's throats they do not want in their rp, unlike some around here.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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I request LVN be allowed into the discussion as I believe he in fact did disprove these weapons

I would like to point out additionally that he is god moding with the naval !@#$ he's using as it is in fact MORE powerful than in game navies others actually have to maintain having. I would like to post up this IRC conversation between us from the 13th of this month to show my objections I have had to these crawlers. I would also like to point out that powerprojecting 5 divisions is quite a feet, having that happen without my knowledge is unlikely.

Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: This work?

[4:22pm] Triyun: no

[4:22pm] Triyun: join #iruncnrp

[9:30pm] Triyun: Mobilize Leviathan

[9:30pm] Triyun: if you haven't already

[9:31pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Working on it.

[9:31pm] Triyun: ok

[01:44am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Where is Tuland?

[01:45am] Triyun: Its Guru

[01:45am] Triyun: below Dilber

[01:45am] Triyun: next to RA

[01:45am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Alrighty..

[01:45am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That's where they're going.. from India

[02:32am] Triyun: damnit Maelstrom

[02:32am] Triyun: stop with the sea crawlers

[02:32am] Triyun: they have no utility

[02:32am] Triyun: and piss people off

[02:32am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: They're my navy. They're going to selected deployment areas, not around the world this time.

[02:35am] Triyun: still they annoy people

[02:35am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Besides..

[02:35am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: You asked me to deploy them earlier *looks confused*

[02:36am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Nevermind.

[02:36am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: You asked me to mobolize Leviathan.. not the crawlers.

[02:41am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: ### EAM TOP SECRET UFE###

[02:42am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: >> Leviathan Nations mostly useless without Imperial Organization... New Taiwan in particular.<<

[02:50am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Going to redeploy the crawlers to the indian ocean.

[02:51am] Triyun: ok

[02:53am] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1270940

[02:58am] You left the chat by being disconnected from the server.

Edited by Triyun
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You assume I am pulling out because the RP is "not going my way". In fact, I see my situation as favorable. You and UFE are both under nuclear duress I actually perceive myself in a position of advantage with intact infrastructure and weapons that could bring your nations medical systems and manpower to their knees. With the nukes hitting major cities, you can't tell me your disease defense systems are going to successfully fend off a biochemical attack right now.

Completely irrelevant

The doubt was proven mistaken in testing. All scientists have doubts, but since no one proved to me they would not work nor made a claim against them working. I went forward under the canonized acceptance of them being stealth capable. Sargun affirmed this canonization. So either you accept canon, or the missiles don't exist. Ergo, options 1 and 2. I can voluntarily withdraw them, but you cannot "unaccept them as canonized" at your convenience. In my eyes, you are the one wanting the mulligan or to avoid the results of the RP.

As you said yourself in the testing thread, they are not completely stealth. You furthermore have no rebuttal to my point that technology can and does operate quite differently in testing and in actual usage. I am accepting as canon that the missiles exist, are stealthy, but not so stealthy to make them invisible.

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Sorry for butting in. I wish to present two points.

1: Faults in designs are usually not found until a: they are used or b: they are tested against better technology. So, it is possible that the Dragonisian scientists were unable to detect the stealth, since the missile test thread did not contain any RP'd stealth testing at all, or since the sensors used were faulty / not sensitive enough etc.

Real life example: Russian vs US subs in the cold war. Russian subs were unable to be detected by their own forces, but were easily found by US forces.

2: IRC logs.

[5:32pm] LeVentNoir: hey

[5:32pm] LeVentNoir: I want to talk over your missile

[5:36pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Shoot.

[5:36pm] LeVentNoir: http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=200...mp;DISPLAY=DESC

[5:36pm] LeVentNoir: It is important to note that the current techniques for reducing the signature for infrared and radar are generally mutually exclusive. In many cases, attempts to reduce the signature in one area of concern actually increases the signature in the other.

[5:36pm] LeVentNoir: also

[5:36pm] LeVentNoir: your Ir reducing links focus on internally generated heat

[5:37pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I realize there's frictional heating also.

[5:37pm] LeVentNoir: yes

[5:37pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That's why I was using the aerogels in the skin.

[5:38pm] LeVentNoir: um

[5:38pm] LeVentNoir: not goign to work

[5:38pm] LeVentNoir: the air out side the missile gets hot

[5:38pm] LeVentNoir: and so does the missile skin

[5:38pm] LeVentNoir: the aerogel stops it conducting into the body of the missile, but the outside still gets hot

[5:38pm] LeVentNoir: and so does the air incontact with it

[5:39pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That has a lot to do with the aero-dynamics of the missile also, correct?

[5:39pm] LeVentNoir: no

[5:39pm] LeVentNoir: if you are moving air past a body at speed, the air heats up and so does the body

[5:40pm] LeVentNoir: generally, its about 1km/s when it starts being noticable

[5:40pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Yes, but the actual heat generated depends a lot on drag and where the drag occurs and how it is managed.

[5:40pm] LeVentNoir: no

[5:40pm] LeVentNoir: unless you are flying in a vacumn, your missile tip will get hot, and hot air will also result

[5:40pm] LeVentNoir: think

[5:41pm] LeVentNoir: SR-71, it leaked fuel on the ground, because it heated up that much

[5:41pm] LeVentNoir: and thats only just 1km/s

[5:41pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: What's half the diameter of earth

[5:41pm] LeVentNoir: 3000km?

[5:41pm] LeVentNoir: or is it 6000km?

[5:41pm] • Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO] is going to calculate the speed he needs to actually have this missile fly.

[5:41pm] LeVentNoir: ICBMs

[5:41pm] LeVentNoir: It is important to note that the current techniques for reducing the signature for infrared and radar are generally mutually exclusive. In many cases, attempts to reduce the signature in one area of concern actually increases the signature in the other.

[5:41pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Bout 6350

[5:42pm] LeVentNoir: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICBM#Flight_phases

[5:42pm] LeVentNoir: oost phase — 3 to 5 minutes (shorter for a solid rocket than for a liquid-propellant rocket); altitude at the end of this phase is typically 150 to 400 km depending on the trajectory chosen, typical burnout speed is 7 km/s.

[5:42pm] LeVentNoir: 7 km/s.

[5:42pm] LeVentNoir: btw

[5:42pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: So lets break this down,because I only need it to be able to get to its target in 1 hour.

[5:42pm] LeVentNoir: you need to have a ballistic path, so its longer than just a circumfrance

[5:42pm] LeVentNoir: its mroe like 30min

[5:43pm] LeVentNoir: and the speed is actually dependant on gravitational flight things

[5:43pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I plotted the fafnir for a 30 minute to 1 hour flight time.

[5:43pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: LVN, with ballistics,all you have to do is adjust the angle if you know the speed.

[5:43pm] LeVentNoir: yeah

[5:43pm] LeVentNoir: the speed of the missile is constant

[5:43pm] LeVentNoir: for pretty much all missiles

[5:44pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Which is why I'm calculating the speed I need to operate my fafnirs on.

[5:44pm] LeVentNoir: yeah

[5:44pm] LeVentNoir: so just use known ICBM speeds

[5:45pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: 6350/60 = 160 approximately km/minute

[5:45pm] LeVentNoir: um, yeah

[5:45pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: 160/60 = 2.66 KM/second.

[5:45pm] LeVentNoir: no

[5:45pm] LeVentNoir: its not that slow

[5:46pm] LeVentNoir: watch as that speed fails the GE test

[5:46pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: GE test?

[5:46pm] LeVentNoir: simply put, you need more kinetic energy at rocket burnout than graviatational potential you have at the top of our ballistic arc

[5:47pm] LeVentNoir: you need to be traveling more than 20% of escape velocity, you need more like 60%

[5:47pm] LeVentNoir: else you will have a pathetic range

[5:47pm] LeVentNoir: you need a burnout speed of 7km/s

[5:47pm] LeVentNoir: you need an average speed of around 3-4km/s

[5:47pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I only need to go half the way around the earth.

[5:47pm] LeVentNoir: thats a diameter I realised

[5:48pm] LeVentNoir: you need half the circumference, with additional distance due to the height into space you go

[5:48pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Correct, let me recalc

[5:48pm] LeVentNoir: Earth — Circumference: 40,075.02 KM (equatorial) 40,007.86 KM (meridional) 40,041.47 KM (mean)

[5:49pm] LeVentNoir: so, you need to go slightly mroe than 20,000km

[5:49pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: 40,075.02 KM

[5:49pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Yup

[5:49pm] LeVentNoir: so, 5.5km/s

[5:49pm] • Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO] whistles.

[5:49pm] LeVentNoir: your missile heats up

[5:49pm] LeVentNoir: and away goes any hope of IR stealth on exiting the atmosphere

[5:50pm] LeVentNoir: as you need to average that speed, and even better, you slow down at the top of the arc, so a burn out speed of 7km/s is not unrealistic

[5:50pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Wish I had a heat calculator for that missile.

[5:51pm] LeVentNoir: well, I think IR stealth during the atmosphere can safely be binned, like it should be

[5:51pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: http://friction.qarchive.org/

[5:51pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I could get one.. but that'd be expensive

[5:52pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Well, okay, so perhaps one could see the missiles launching if one is looking, but once the missiles are out of atmosphere.. tracking them would be just about impossible until re-entry.

[5:53pm] LeVentNoir: well you see, ballistic, so unless you spend more engine power maneuvering, targets are known in the first few minutes

[5:53pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That.. CAN be done..

[5:53pm] LeVentNoir: yes it can

[5:53pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That's what the soviet stealth missile in fact does.

[5:53pm] LeVentNoir: however, that will create IR flashes

[5:53pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Different kinds though..

[5:53pm] LeVentNoir: btw

[5:53pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Kinds that can be shielded and vented.

[5:54pm] LeVentNoir: how much does all this stealth !@#$ weight?

[5:54pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Aerogels are practically weightless.. so is RAM.. the engine has a 3-10% efficiency reduction, but that can be accomodating with scaling.

[5:55pm] LeVentNoir: what about the nitrogen?

[5:55pm] LeVentNoir: actually, RAM does weigh quite a bit

[5:55pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Well, if you can't achieve launch cloak, the liquid nitrogen wouldn't even be needed.

[5:55pm] LeVentNoir: good, at least to acknowledge that

[5:56pm] LeVentNoir: bt

[5:56pm] LeVentNoir: btw

[5:56pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I can still think of a way to achieve launch cloaking. I just do not have the technology for it.

[5:56pm] LeVentNoir: can RAM stand the temps we are talking about?

[5:56pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Even if it doesn't, the aerogels definitely can and are both ER/IR absorptive.

[5:56pm] LeVentNoir: i mean, its hotter than most paints can stand

[5:56pm] LeVentNoir: actually

[5:57pm] LeVentNoir: aerogels are not IR absorbant

[5:57pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: According tot hat article they are

[5:57pm] LeVentNoir: you mean, the are IR insulators

[5:57pm] LeVentNoir: meaning, that they block IR signals passing through them

[5:57pm] LeVentNoir: absorbtion would mean it gets hotter

[5:57pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Ah, yeah..

[5:57pm] LeVentNoir: this simply blocks them

[5:57pm] LeVentNoir: so yes the internal parts are safe

[5:58pm] LeVentNoir: but the radar reflecting / dissapating paint is gone

[5:58pm] LeVentNoir: burnt off

[5:58pm] LeVentNoir: hey

[5:58pm] LeVentNoir: um

[5:58pm] LeVentNoir: you know

[5:59pm] LeVentNoir: wouldn't it traveling in suborbital space produce a plasma sheath? not a nice plasma sheath, but one of the general ones which reflect radar well?

[6:00pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Paragraphs 7-12 indicate what I'm talking about.

[6:00pm] LeVentNoir: yes

[6:00pm] LeVentNoir: but thats for internal heat

[6:00pm] LeVentNoir: not external

[6:00pm] LeVentNoir: anyway

[6:01pm] LeVentNoir: we are off heat

[6:01pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I do not think the orbits of ICBMs get into the earth's..'kuper'? belts.

[6:01pm] LeVentNoir: and onto plasma

[6:01pm] LeVentNoir: lol

[6:01pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Where ionization occurs

[6:01pm] LeVentNoir: lol

[6:01pm] LeVentNoir: the orbit is part of an ellipse with a vertical major axis; the apogee (halfway the midcourse phase) is at an altitude of approximately 1,200 km;

[6:01pm] LeVentNoir: 1200km hight

[6:02pm] LeVentNoir: thats about 300km higher than sputnik

[6:02pm] LeVentNoir: 7,310 km (4,540 mi) from centre, 939 km (583 mi) from surface

[6:02pm] LeVentNoir: they got plasma sheaths reflecting radio signals

[6:02pm] LeVentNoir: and so will you

[6:03pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Hrmm

[6:03pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Re-entry..

[6:03pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: But not in orbit from what I'm seeing.

[6:03pm] LeVentNoir: no

[6:03pm] LeVentNoir: in the main orbit area

[6:03pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: The energy released during the braking is enough to ionize the air and surround the RV with a plasma sheet, so that its path is traced out by a a pale shining, highly visible ionization trail.

[6:03pm] LeVentNoir: lol

[6:03pm] LeVentNoir: in orbit the plasma is not enough to see, but it would reflect radar well

[6:03pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: RV meaning re-entry vehicle.

[6:04pm] LeVentNoir: you know that stealth missile you talked about?

[6:04pm] LeVentNoir: I have worked out its trick

[6:04pm] LeVentNoir: it maneuvers in the reentry, so yes it will hit say USA, but which city is un known

[6:05pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Actually, from what I'm seeing a plasma coat may be a very bad thing to a radar.

[6:05pm] LeVentNoir: yes

[6:05pm] LeVentNoir: its very visible

[6:05pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Yup, that's correct LVN, its engines change its entry path.

[6:05pm] LeVentNoir: yes

[6:05pm] LeVentNoir: on reentry,

[6:05pm] LeVentNoir: in the orbital phase

[6:05pm] LeVentNoir: you still get plasma

[6:06pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: So from Apogee you could in theory return it anywhere to the earth below the apogee point, even its launch pad.

[6:06pm] LeVentNoir: no

[6:06pm] LeVentNoir: when something is still it has small momentum, so to spin it, you need a small force

[6:06pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I think I should stick to ocean launched weapons..

[6:07pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: They're less predictable.

[6:07pm] LeVentNoir: when its going fast, has a large one, so you need a massive force to change its direction

[6:07pm] LeVentNoir: yes ocean launched ICBMs...

[6:07pm] LeVentNoir: those are nice

[6:07pm] LeVentNoir: or cruise missiles

[6:07pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Maybe stealth coat those because that WOULD work.

[6:07pm] LeVentNoir: cruise missiles are good for stealth

[6:07pm] LeVentNoir: build them radar stealth

[6:07pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: They are basically long range cruise missiles.

[6:08pm] LeVentNoir: they are sub sonic, so not going to heat up

[6:08pm] LeVentNoir: and you can hide the engines without too much effort

[6:08pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That's what I will do..

[6:08pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I'm going to re-type the fafnirs.

[6:08pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: They wouldn't have been feasible.

[6:08pm] LeVentNoir: the only problem is that KE cruise missiles are pathetic

[6:08pm] LeVentNoir: you need real warheads

[6:08pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: The only thing is, no one objected or provided a solid argument when I developed them.

[6:08pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Against them

[6:08pm] LeVentNoir: look

[6:09pm] LeVentNoir: no one objected when KM made his hafnium weapons

[6:09pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: KE cruise missiles?

[6:09pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I'm using thermobaric warheads.

[6:09pm] LeVentNoir: simply put, if its BS, it doesn't matter when it is found out

[6:09pm] LeVentNoir: right

[6:09pm] LeVentNoir: how big is the blast from these thermobaric warheads?

[6:09pm] LeVentNoir: like MOAB size?

[6:10pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Yup.

[6:10pm] LeVentNoir: right

[6:10pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I think that's like 10 tons.

[6:10pm] LeVentNoir: you know a MOAB has like, 5 tones of explosive

[6:10pm] LeVentNoir: and cruise missiles have payloads less than half a ton?

[6:10pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: That's enough to level a few blocks

[6:10pm] LeVentNoir: and even ICBMs top out at about 1200kg

[6:10pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Well, the ones currently made.

[6:10pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: IRBM's have higher yields.

[6:11pm] LeVentNoir: and since you have pre current tech, thats what you get to play with

[6:11pm] LeVentNoir: IRBMs?

[6:11pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: It's like an ocean launched scud more than an ocean launched tomahawk

[6:11pm] LeVentNoir: right

[6:11pm] LeVentNoir: so then, its not stealthy

[6:11pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: You're saying an ocean launched scud can't be subsonic?

[6:11pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Or guided?

[6:11pm] LeVentNoir: because its a rocket motor and actually is a SRBM, short ranged ballistic weapon

[6:11pm] LeVentNoir: a scud is a ballistic weapon

[6:11pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: IRBM is the same thing.. i is intermediate.

[6:12pm] LeVentNoir: not a ground following sub sonic jet powered cruise missile

[6:12pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Guided rocket system?

[6:12pm] LeVentNoir: no, thats not a cruise missile

[6:12pm] LeVentNoir: you want stealth, talk cruise missiles

[6:12pm] LeVentNoir: (jet powered ones)

[6:12pm] LeVentNoir: anyway

[6:12pm] LeVentNoir: I have to go make tea

[6:12pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: If I only need to hit 1000 miles awy..

[6:13pm] LeVentNoir: be back on in an hour or so

[6:13pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Why can't I make a low powered rocket only meant for carrying.. versus speed.

[6:13pm] LeVentNoir: i'll tell you later

[6:14pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Anyway, I'm going to announce the nerf of my fafnirs.. as to controversial.

[6:14pm] LeVentNoir: cool

[6:14pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I'm going to relegate them to normal ICBMS

[6:14pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I'm still going to produce a lot of them, enough of anything is a mess.

[6:15pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: I will keep the trajectory alteration though, that could still be useful.

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Note that I come to agreement with LVN on my research.

[6:05pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Actually, from what I'm seeing a plasma coat may be a very bad thing to a radar.

Here's how: Time Magazine

The content he sited in the chat on ICBM's didn't even mention plasma.

And note, the reason I nerfed them is clearly visible.

[6:14pm] Maelstrom_Vortex[NPO]: Anyway, I'm going to announce the nerf of my fafnirs.. as to controversial.

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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I request LVN be allowed into the discussion as I believe he in fact did disprove these weapons

I would like to point out additionally that he is god moding with the naval !@#$ he's using as it is in fact MORE powerful than in game navies others actually have to maintain having. I would like to post up this IRC conversation between us from the 13th of this month to show my objections I have had to these crawlers. I would also like to point out that powerprojecting 5 divisions is quite a feet, having that happen without my knowledge is unlikely.

These are.. eh.. sea crawlers. And I note you were perfectly content for using your defense and yet not when they are used against you. Your grounds against them weren't a functional basis it was for "pissing people off" a large difference than a technical objection. And you knew about them, they were the very same troops.. transported by the very same method.. to Tululand.. and later retrieved from Tululand and sent to Beijing. I've provided numbers to Hawk about how many cruise missiles I can maintain. Numbers only available to him for reasons relating to revelations restrictions from my IG alliance. I also note, the cruise missile maintenance number was on the low end as I have strongly role played the development of a wealth fund that can support many.. many more than thousands.

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I'm well aware of those regulations. However, I would remind you that the size of your assets has nothing to do with the cap on what you can buy. If that was the case there are many nations that could field several tens of millions of soldiers.

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Caps on soldiers are provided by population sizes and reproduction rates. You can buy missiles til you run out of ore in the ground to make them by or energy to fuel them.. which is why fuel is only used for rocket stage propulsion in them. Oh wait.. did I ever mention that Tasmania sits on one of the world's sixth largest mineral deposits? Oh yes, yes I have. Did I ever mention I have a complete in game trade ring? No, but it's easily pointed out.. and oh look, I trade with everyone around the world just about or did at some point. (including yourself and Tahoe).

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My response is, in the terms of this particular RP system, "I am."

And those who know what I am capable of financially and diplomatically are aware of this.

I would argue you and Mudd should do the same and actually take the relative infrastructure hits you would have from your nuclear exchanges.. etc. And stop pretending like "A few municipal areas" are just a "flesh wound". The lot of you are a bunch of Monty pythonesque Black Knights in my eyes, save LVN who has taken no such damage.

This is the case of the tiny guy with just enough resources to be dangerous taking those resources and being inventive enough to be a good fight. You want the game to just be a game of numbers, more power to you, that's what CNRP-R is for. I wish to note, taking as many nukes as you have, the two of you would likely be well below my NS right now.

I am starting to see the two of you are not willing to cede your losses also in the rp threads, which is a direct violation of the terms of CNRP. After how you treated the nukes, I'm equally not suprised.

I hope you're an empire who likes protracted guerrilla engagement, because all the blustering you can do will not make me yield.

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Caps on soldiers are provided by population sizes and reproduction rates. You can buy missiles til you run out of ore in the ground to make them by or energy to fuel them.. which is why fuel is only used for rocket stage propulsion in them. Oh wait.. did I ever mention that Tasmania sits on one of the world's sixth largest mineral deposits? Oh yes, yes I have. Did I ever mention I have a complete in game trade ring? No, but it's easily pointed out.. and oh look, I trade with everyone around the world just about or did at some point. (including yourself and Tahoe).

No offense Mael, but through your reasoning, anyone can have as many of anything so long as he has the resources - they can make half their population fight if they have guns - have as many tanks as they'd like so long as they have materials - as many biowhatever weapons so long as there are viruses, chemicals, etc. around, as many A-A emplacements... coastal guns... mines... bunkers... you know where I'm getting at.

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That would be because you could have if you had the financial capability to afford them. Resources, including manpower, have costs. All these have been factored in. A division of soldiers in fact, manages the arms in question. This thread, however, is not about the sea-crawlers which have been canonized and not objected to til now.. previously explained a dozen times in the past, approved by moderators, are not up for discussion and obviously this is a red-herring, I am going to get back on topic before Hawk11 jumps us.

BTW, convenient timing on the objections fellas! Keep it rolling. You guys are about to take the metagamers of the year award. (Not you of course V. I realize you're just responding to what was said before.)

Brief summary: Can you have them is answered by: Afford them? Resources for them? Manpower for them? 3 sound yes and that's all I need.

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Maelstrom, turning to personal attacks is something that is unbecoming, you made a decision to fire a weapon at an ally that was willing to take nukes on the chin in wartime. Your getting a war because of it. I know for a fact that you should know better.

Additionally your technology has always been objected to. If my old computer hadn't been killed I could access logs of my objections to you on several different occasions. Your reasoning as I recall was something along the lines of "well I can't have a real navy." Well guess what? Not every country can. Trying to get around having to have one is ridiculous.

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Actually, I can have a navy, I just chose this one as an alternative versus blowing my money changing national configurations IG or jumping to 4999.99 infra like I easily could. Why? because it's a creative use of resources for a tiny nation.

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Sea Crawlers are cruise missiles. Not navies.

They're little more than long range torpedo with a missile stage on the end. Basically, missiles that transit via an aqueous medium.

na⋅vy

   /ˈneɪvi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ney-vee] Show IPA

–noun, plural -vies.

1. the whole body of warships and auxiliaries belonging to a country or ruler.

2. (often initial capital letter) the complete body of such warships together with their officers and enlisted personnel, equipment, yards, etc., constituting the sea power of a nation.

3. (often initial capital letter) the department of government charged with its management.

4. navy blue.

5. Archaic. a fleet of ships.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com

No mention there of an undersea guided torpedo with missile tip force.

Can we get back on topic now instead of discussing something GMs had already previously accepted, has been used in a ridiculous number of RPs and that no one has objected to? Thanks.

I've let you guys tear apart my RP work enough, I'm not allowing it to go any further. I have made sufficient sacrifices for this community already without objection.

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The problem is it doesn't move like a duck, doesn't quack like a duck, and isn't a duck.. because there is no crew involved and the systems are not nearly as complex as a full blown warship.

At the best, as stated previously, they are REAAALLLLY long ranged torpedoes with missiles on the end. I can't really think of a comparable rl equivalent. Are we ever going to get back to discussion Hawk's OP? Or is this red herring going to continue to disrespectfully distract?

Edited by Maelstrom Vortex
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Triyun: hey

[7:50pm] Sargun: hello.

[7:51pm] Triyun: can you explain to Maelstorm that having hundred of underwater cruise missile launching platforms are a navy

[7:51pm] Triyun: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?s...t&p=1307733

[7:51pm] Sargun: I'm about to say that if he thinks they're cruise missiles then he can only have 50 tops

[7:51pm] Sargun: and no other cruise missiles

[7:52pm] Triyun: ok

[7:52pm] Triyun: thank you

[7:52pm] Sargun: better yet, you post it

[7:52pm] Sargun: I'm busy with the map

[7:52pm] Sargun: just c/p this

[7:52pm] Triyun: ok

Topic done.

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I've spoken to Sargun also, they're getting together on this and a ruling will be forthcoming which is final. I understand this because it's going to have to be a compromise due to the fact we all have very valid points on the table. Lets all be patient and give them time to sort it on the Sea-Crawler issue.. and the whole global war started by stealth? missile issue.

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Both of you are correct.

We're going to stop this and have a GM ruling. Triyun and Maelstrom, I agree with you both and sympathize with you both, but that makes it harder to rule just once.

Please stop posting here unless it's vital to the ruling.

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