A GREAT final episode for M*A*S*H

[metal]

No, you sanction the top members of an alliance first

Go re-read those threads George, ya missed a few things.

[Coursca]

Henry is in Blackwater... "We" don't need a convenient excuse to attack. We come out and tell it exactly how it is, how it happened, and what's going to happen now. I'm sure you've read the two NAAW threads by now.

Try it George, just say "We actually just wanted to fight MASH". It's way easier than jumping through hoops of fire. Seriously this charade is nauseating.

Try it, metal...just say "I don't actually know the whole story behind why GREAT would possibly want to attack M*A*S*H."

In all seriousness, M*A*S*H has crossed GREAT's path before. There's one incident during which I believe was excessive retaliation for a tech raid, IIRC. And by excessive, I mean M*A*S*H ordered a quad attack bumrush, bombing runs, and the whole nine yards for one tech raid (and he lost both of the ground attacks in the raid and gave the target money), which even you have admit is pretty ridiculous, even by TE standards.

Its not that we "just wanted to fight M*A*S*H." Its not a bandwagon. We have a real beef with them outside of the NAAW deal. This was just the "straw", so to speak.

Also, I'm totally not GREAT government...so I should probably let the real gov do this stuff...I promised I wouldn't get too entangled in TE...

[metal]

Try it, metal...just say "I don't actually know the whole story behind why GREAT would possibly want to attack M*A*S*H."

In all seriousness, M*A*S*H has crossed GREAT's path before. There's one incident during which I believe was excessive retaliation for a tech raid, IIRC. And by excessive, I mean M*A*S*H ordered a quad attack bumrush, bombing runs, and the whole nine yards for one tech raid (and he lost both of the ground attacks in the raid and gave the target money), which even you have admit is pretty ridiculous, even by TE standards.

Its not that we "just wanted to fight M*A*S*H." Its not a bandwagon. We have a real beef with them outside of the NAAW deal. This was just the "straw", so to speak.

Also, I'm totally not GREAT government...so I should probably let the real gov do this stuff...I promised I wouldn't get too entangled in TE...

Haha, I promised too... its tough though.

MASH and BW are allies, we're pretty well aware of the story behind GREAT's motives. I wasn't just conjuring them up out of nowhere. However, since I am not DIRECTLY in the middle of those talks, it is indeed very well possible that I don't have all the info, so here goes:

I don't actually know the WHOLE story behind why GREAT would possibly want to attack MASH.

K. I can acknowledge that.

Your turn.

[George the Great]

To all concerned parties, M*A*S*H and her allies are still seeking peace with Naaw. They have just been shot down repeatedly. As far as the declarations earlier, both alliances (Great and M*A*S*H) know that tensions were high and were expecting a war against each other. They can argue that they had no intention of attacking M*A*S*H, but most people know that's not true. One of their members declared early in the day on ours. Then three of ours declared on them later in the day. After that there were numerous declarations back and forth.

Keep in mind, many of these were not defensive retaliations, but declarations on completely random nations. Tensions are high but we'll continue talking to Great and Naaw, and to other mediating parties, to try and achieve an end to these wars before it becomes any more destructive.

Our rogues reason was "LAWL NAAW" and he had tech-raids against NAAW nations as well, apparently. I'm not saying a war wasn't expected, like I said we were having a meeting on what to do while we were getting attacked by NAAW, which explains our quick response (Well that and the new e-mail declaration feature, that definitely helped). If you thought that declaration was an attack on M*A*S*H you should have informed us BEFORE and not AFTER attacking several of our members, including myself. The logs prove that your update attack was organized and sanctioned as even your allies were aware of exactly what was going on, we on the other hand, were not.

All of our declarations, after the initial attack, were defensive declarations. Just because we don't all put defense in the reason and would rather use a bit of humour doesn't mean they were random declarations. I told everyone in the meeting to attack back in defence before anymore M*A*S*H members attacked us and once that was done we went and got our mass message list and messaged all members of GREAT to do the same. You'd think we would have had a little more organized of a defence if we were actually planning to hit you guys this update anyway.

[i hate cyber nations]

Try it, metal...just say "I don't actually know the whole story behind why GREAT would possibly want to attack M*A*S*H."

In all seriousness, M*A*S*H has crossed GREAT's path before. There's one incident during which I believe was excessive retaliation for a tech raid, IIRC. And by excessive, I mean M*A*S*H ordered a quad attack bumrush, bombing runs, and the whole nine yards for one tech raid (and he lost both of the ground attacks in the raid and gave the target money), which even you have admit is pretty ridiculous, even by TE standards.

Its not that we "just wanted to fight M*A*S*H." Its not a bandwagon. We have a real beef with them outside of the NAAW deal. This was just the "straw", so to speak.

Also, I'm totally not GREAT government...so I should probably let the real gov do this stuff...I promised I wouldn't get too entangled in TE...

good to see that the driving reason for Great's declaration is revenge. I'm not too sure how that is fair for your allies when the majority of outside parties want peace instead of war.

your description of the raid is also wrong. George the Great raided our nation and got two friends to raid it too. Tech raiding somebody with 3 nations isn't considered excessive, but defending your member with 3 nations is?

[George the Great]

So you went ahead with everything even though you didn't actually speak to a legitimate MASH government member?

.... George, George, George

If I find you on IRC and tell you I represent "X" alliance, can I get you to attack "X" alliance without talking to an actual member of "X" alliance as well?

Huh? That whole conversation happened AFTER M*A*S*H attacked us, I have no idea what you're trying to say. He says in the logs that the reason M*A*S*H DoW was because the representative from "X" alliance went to them and told them "Y" alliance was going to attack them without any further proof. This is where "X" alliance is of course the enemy.

He's the leader of CDT who is/was involved in the NAAW peace talks, to the best of my knowledge. Sounds reliable given the information that he had. Aside from the fact that none of the things he said motivated any of my, or GREAT's, decisions. It only cemented everything, more or less,

[Dagrr]

Try it, metal...just say "I don't actually know the whole story behind why GREAT would possibly want to attack M*A*S*H."

In all seriousness, M*A*S*H has crossed GREAT's path before. There's one incident during which I believe was excessive retaliation for a tech raid, IIRC. And by excessive, I mean M*A*S*H ordered a quad attack bumrush, bombing runs, and the whole nine yards for one tech raid (and he lost both of the ground attacks in the raid and gave the target money), which even you have admit is pretty ridiculous, even by TE standards.

Its not that we "just wanted to fight M*A*S*H." Its not a bandwagon. We have a real beef with them outside of the NAAW deal. This was just the "straw", so to speak.

Also, I'm totally not GREAT government...so I should probably let the real gov do this stuff...I promised I wouldn't get too entangled in TE...

If this is all about the evil MASH, why is George the Great's in game declaration reason "NAAW Defense" ?

Edited January 5, 2009 by Henry

[metal]

Huh? That whole conversation happened AFTER M*A*S*H attacked us, I have no idea what you're trying to say. He says in the logs that the reason M*A*S*H DoW was because the representative from "X" alliance went to them and told them "Y" alliance was going to attack them without any further proof. This is where "X" alliance is of course the enemy.

He's the leader of CDT who is/was involved in the NAAW peace talks, to the best of my knowledge. Sounds reliable given the information that he had. Aside from the fact that none of the things he said motivated any of my, or GREAT's, decisions. It only cemented everything, more or less,

George, whether it "sounds" reliable or not, you should probably go ahead and check with MASH - just to make sure, you know if you actually wanted to avoid the war and all, dontcha think?

Cuz like I said, I could run some pretty reliable sounding stuff by you if that's all it takes for you to declare.

[George the Great]

good to see that the driving reason for Great's declaration is revenge. I'm not too sure how that is fair for your allies when the majority of outside parties want peace instead of war.

your description of the raid is also wrong. George the Great raided our nation and got two friends to raid it too. Tech raiding somebody with 3 nations isn't considered excessive, but defending your member with 3 nations is?

You guys only like to read half of everything, apparently. The reason we're going to war now is to defend ourselves, whether we like you guys or not doesn't matter at all. M*A*S*H organized and perpetrated an assault on GREAT and we're now going to defend ourselves. If you folks wanted peace it would have made sense to talk about this prior to attacking us and not 20 minutes after... or maybe that doesn't make sense?

Anyway, I didn't get those people to raid him, they saw my wars and jumped in themselves... The one nation actually raided before me. Nevertheless, you never attacked either of them, yet they actually did damage. The only nation of the 3 attacked was myself and I lost both of the ground battles I launched and ended up giving him around $12,000 instead.

[George the Great]

George, whether it "sounds" reliable or not, you should probably go ahead and check with MASH - just to make sure, you know if you actually wanted to avoid the war and all, dontcha think?

Cuz like I said, I could run some pretty reliable sounding stuff by you if that's all it takes for you to declare.

What are you talking about avoid the war, what part of we were all ready attacked and had all ready ordered a defensive wave on M*A*S*H do you not get? Those logs didn't motivate our decision to defend ourselves, it just made the reason we were attacked look that much more retarded.

And why can't my DoW be NAAW defense? I was attacked by M*A*S*H before I declared war on that nation, I just wanted to show that this wasn't just about us, but about NAAW as well. We were still deciding if we were capable of defending NAAW, you guys just made the decision for GREAT by attacking us. You sure are trying hard to find whatever you can to pull yourselves out of this mess. You're going to have to try harder.

Edited January 5, 2009 by George the Great

[metal]

What are you talking about avoid the war, what part of we were all ready attacked and had all ready ordered a defensive wave on M*A*S*H do you not get? Those logs didn't motivate our decision to defend ourselves, it just made the reason we were attacked look that much more retarded.

It's easy to see why you and Bill are allied.

I'd be all for your defense theory if it wasn't a GREAT nation to first attack a MASH nation, be it rogue or not, and then GREAT alliance not do everything in their power to quickly alert MASH and the OWF of the story and that it was not a sanctioned attack.

"Oh.. I didnt see it" Ignorance is bliss, and quite convenient as well.

[George the Great]

It's easy to see why you and Bill are allied.

I'd be all for your defense theory if it wasn't a GREAT nation to first attack a MASH nation, be it rogue or not, and then GREAT alliance not do everything in their power to quickly alert MASH and the OWF of the story and that it was not a sanctioned attack.

"Oh.. I didnt see it" Ignorance is bliss, and quite convenient as well.

How the hell does one rogue attack, who's fighting nations from the alliance he's supposedly defending, in the middle of the day with no further attacks or legitimate signs of attacking get construed as an aggressive act against an entire alliance? I'm sure M*A*S*H and Blackwater have never once missed an attack by a rogue nation of theirs either. If it was important enough to warrant a preemptive and organized attacked by several M*A*S*H members then you'd think it would be important enough to talk about with GREAT prior to attacking them... not 20 minutes after.

They had 12 hours to notify us and they didn't, until we were attacked by M*A*S*H that is. I'm also Sparta gov in CN:S as well, I'm not constantly refreshing the wars around the globe page in TE to see what's going on. I do notice, however, when I get an e-mail saying that I have been attacked and when multiple GREAT members in a meeting say they are being attacked at the same time, right before update.

I'd be all for the M*A*S*H defence theory if it actually made sense. If they had told us about the attacks beforehand then we wouldn't have been able to use it as an excuse and we would have announced he was a rogue before hand.

It's easy to see why you and M*A*S*H are allied. You both believe that ridiculous, excessive and uninformed actions can be used to solve far simpler issues.

I always wondered how many different times the same thing could be repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I don't even need to post anymore to reply to you guys. I can just quote myself since I've all ready replied to the same statements 10 times now.

Edited January 5, 2009 by George the Great

[Neo Uruk]

I'm sure M*A*S*H and Blackwater have never once missed an attack by a rogue nation of theirs either.

In fact, we've been raided by a M*A*S*H nation, George, since that little incident. I never received information of a letter of apology, although he seems to have moved to TPF.

[George the Great]

In fact, we've been raided by a M*A*S*H nation, George, since that little incident. I never received information of a letter of apology, although he seems to have moved to TPF.

How ever did we not surprise attack M*A*S*H for that, I don't understand.

[Bedford Forrest]

We have shown and continue to show restraint against GREAT while the above mentioned negotiations with NAAW continue.

One member in our leadership has posted 2 notes in this 39-post self-justification parade.

The Mighty Armed States of Honor and her allies, both involved and not, continue to ask for discussions to continue.

We do tend to listen to our leaders, including directions on when not to retaliate (which was last night.)

The MASH alliance thanks Boomer for his leadership, Pops for being the mensch that he is, trying to set things right, and our membership for maintaining ranks.

[George the Great]

Yes, your update attack last night without talking to us at all, ever, displayed much restraint. I'm very proud of M*A*S*H and its great leadership. It was us that showed restraint until we were surprise attacked "preemptively". If you also noticed, this 40 post "self-justification parade" is full of posts from your allies who seem to like repeating their opinions a ridiculous amount of times. Maybe your leadership is staying our of this thread because they know what happened and that it was their fault.

How can you say you're showing restraint when you guys launched an assault on us. Looks like those that attacked last night were the only ones on at update and we weren't attacked by anyone else not because M*A*S*H was restraining themselves, but because there was no one else on.

Peace talks would have been appreciated prior to your talk, after... not so much. If this was something M*A*S*H really wanted to avoid and talk to GREAT about, then maybe M*A*S*H would've avoided it by talking to GREAT.

The only reason you guys care about peace now is because you attacked us while we announced our MDoAP with Fark, whom NAAW also has a MDoAP with. You're a little scared of them joining the fray and are now face-palming yourselves thanks to your rash and stupid actions.

Edited January 5, 2009 by George the Great

[i hate cyber nations]

How ever did we not surprise attack M*A*S*H for that, I don't understand.

no, but you were well within your rights as an alliance to do so. And you probably should have because we discourage raiding on any alliance. It seems like this entire war is all about self responsibility, both the Naaw war, and your personal war against M*A*S*H.

if our member raided one of your members, you should have attacked him. It was his own decision to make, and we would hope that he learned his lesson after being attacked.

[Satsukage]

Thaisport was right, the NAAWATER issue is becoming an EPIC war. Unlike most people I'm not going to point fingers and say who's fault it really is and who attacked first. The truth is that Common Defense Treaty was ordered to stand down and not to attack GREAT. I recieved the message myself to not attack GREAT nations. Anyways any nations that did attack GREAT were probably rogues like you declared that the GREAT nations that attacked MASH were rogues. This issue can easily be solved diplomaticaly and I don't see why both sides are taking so long to find a solution. If this drags on other alliances will join causing a avoidable EPIC war. I personally think that the issue should've stayed between Blackwater and NAAW (no offense to anyone).

What is happening currently is that everyone is pointing fingers at each alliance saying, "he attacked first not me". That's pretty childish.

Anyways I hope a resolution can be found otherwise brace yourselves for an Epic war people :jihad:

[George the Great]

Thaisport was right, the NAAWATER issue is becoming an EPIC war. Unlike most people I'm not going to point fingers and say who's fault it really is and who attacked first. The truth is that Common Defense Treaty was ordered to stand down and not to attack GREAT. I recieved the message myself to not attack GREAT nations. Anyways any nations that did attack GREAT were probably rogues like you declared that the GREAT nations that attacked MASH were rogues. This issue can easily be solved diplomaticaly and I don't see why both sides are taking so long to find a solution. If this drags on other alliances will join causing a avoidable EPIC war. I personally think that the issue should've stayed between Blackwater and NAAW (no offense to anyone).

What is happening currently is that everyone is pointing fingers at each alliance saying, "he attacked first not me". That's pretty childish.

Anyways I hope a resolution can be found otherwise brace yourselves for an Epic war people :jihad:

Pointing fingers at the people that were attacked is childish, I'm not saying that's what you're getting at, I'm just saying. The war was avoidable until M*A*S*H organized an update attack on SEVERAL, not one, GREAT members because our rogue attacked them. No diplomatic channels were opened until we were attacked. We don't see getting attacked as a diplomatic channel, and as such, we will not accept the stupid peace terms being given to us.

Thanks to this latest attack, I don't see this war getting anything but larger, unfortunately. Maybe people will learn from their stupid mistakes and blatant overconfidence.

Edited January 5, 2009 by George the Great

[metal]

Maybe people will learn from their stupid mistakes and blatant overconfidence.

Now that we can agree on George!

See, common ground already.

[Neo Uruk]

Now that we can agree on George!

See, common ground already.

I sympathize with this. If only learning went hand in hand with practicing at all times.

[Satsukage]

Did you declare that nation rogue to MASH before they retaliated?

[metal]

I sympathize with this. If only learning went hand in hand with practicing at all times.

Is there any possible way we can become allied? If not now, in the near future?

[Neo Uruk]

Did you declare that nation rogue to MASH before they retaliated?

As it has been stated by George, we didn't see the rogue before M*A*S*H hit us.

And to metal: If the political climate changes, there are always possibilities. However, I do not see it happening this round.

[George the Great]

Did you declare that nation rogue to MASH before they retaliated?

Did we know that he even attacked them? Like I said, I don't F5 the wars across the globe page constantly. Had they asked us prior to the attack, yes, we would have. NAAW came to us when he tech-raided them as well and we told them he was a rogue, I told KDL, at least.

You don't go and update attack several members of another alliance because one nation, who was even at war with allies, decided to attack them midday. You go to them and say... "wtf?" Then if they tell you to screw off you attack them. If a Russian soldier that is on leave and vacationing in the United States shot an American, would the US invade Russia immediately without saying a damn thing?