Why environment STILL doesnt mean anything

[Sir Wellington]

Ok, let me first start this by stating that this is for nations who are able to purchase all monetary improvements up to churches and IA's (45k citizens)...

Now, lets take a look at this...

For the most part, when border walls increase your environment, the population is virtually unaffected. (My nation was losing about 100 citizens every time I bought a border wall, with 57k citizens).

We can pretty much all agree that border walls increase your income VERY little when you have full environment (and can even hurt you at times). This is determined on whether on not 2% of your income is more than 2 happiness (124.5 per cit w/ SSS or 118 w/o).

So....

Essentially what happens is you purchase border walls until your env is full, then you stop. It adds essentially NO complications to the game. I can literally write a how-to guide in minutes. This doesnt really affect trades either because when you have bad env trades, you just have more border walls to buy to fix it. This essentially turns border walls into a +2 happiness improvement... thats all.

All improved environment does is affect those who are short on improvement slots. So basically, if you are big enough, you can say "screw environment." (I might point out that Gramlins is probably not having any problems with improvement slots, go figure).

So yea, all this will do is add a TON of improvement swapping.

In case you were calling my bluff.... here's my howto guide on improvements:

Buy in typical order until you get past PC. Then buy BWs until your env is full... then buy IAs and chuches. <--- Look, one line

yay!!! CN CAN APPEAR GREEN!!!!

Im not even going to start on the "those in power stay in power" point, as we can all understand. It doesnt take a business/econ degree to understand the effect of reduced incomes does to the separation of the upper and lower classes.

tl;dr - Everyone's pop drops and border walls are now +2 happiness only. Sucks for you if you dont have improvement slots.

[Londo Mollari]

The -2% population per border wall still exists. Having to use border walls as a crutch to fix the environment will work, yes, but it will also cost you that -2% population every time. Nor can you simply trash them to fight a war to bring your population back up, for then you take the environment penalty and lose nearly as much population.

Sure, you can use border walls to fix the issue, more or less... but it's not the best solutoin.

The optimal solution as I see it is to get water in trade, not to trade for coal or oil, and only to trade for uranium if you want nukes badly enough to pay the economic costs associated with them.

[ArgonV]

Still, the population increase associated with improving your environment by 1 point is about 1.73%, that's almost enough to cancel out the -2% population effect

[Viluin]

Nothing is canceled out, that's just an illusion. Someone who gets to max environment without or with less border walls will have a lot more citizens than someone who needs (more) border walls to get there (Assuming their trade setups are roughly the same).

Edited May 22, 2008 by Viluin

[Steelrat]

BW's if used correct gave you more income even you have lost some citiziens BEFORE UPDATE and it doesn't changed AFTER UPDATE just the effect is now bigger and in fact better. If your envi isn't perfect you loose citiziens, if you build then a BW you will loose lesser citiziens as you gain from your better envi + an income bonus.

Anyone who didn't used BW's before to optimize his income is now forced to or suffer heavy losses.

And it makes war more interesting now as you always aim for most soldiers, you need to balance out your envi and BW's to max out citziens thus soldiers. Including the fitting Government.

This adds a new dimension to war as you now can't just stupidly switch to Communism anymore.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Steelrat

[ArgonV]

I agree, but that's not what I meant. I meant that the -2% population caused by border walls is almost cancelled out by the increase in population due to the increase of environment. But of course, getting the same environment score with less border walls is better for your population.

[uaciaut]

I agree, but that's not what I meant. I meant that the -2% population caused by border walls is almost cancelled out by the increase in population due to the increase of environment. But of course, getting the same environment score with less border walls is better for your population.

In wars you'll be looking for max pop since it's unlikely you'll be collecting anyway, so it's comparing the 2% bw take with how much 1 enviro gives >.>

[Aeternos Astramora]

Still, the population increase associated with improving your environment by 1 point is about 1.73%, that's almost enough to cancel out the -2% population effect

Just to clarify on small point, you said:

-1 environment = -1.73%.

That means that:

+1 environment = +1.78%.

Edited May 22, 2008 by Aeternos Astramora

[ArgonV]

1 environment gives you about +1.76% population.

Edited May 22, 2008 by ArgonV

[Sir Wellington]

My point is very simple really and I dont think anyone really got it, which I believe was pretty clear...

Border walls are only largely beneficial IF you have poor environment. It has pretty much always been that way, but this just compounds the effect.

If you have the best environment that you can have, border walls will do little to nothing to help you. Like I said in the original post, border walls can actually drop your income in some cases.

If you have bad environment, it just means you have less improvement slots and MARGINALLY decreased income. Having the best environment just means you dont have to buy border walls... thats all, nothing more.

[Sir Wellington]

Maybe this is an easier way to understand it...

Before this change, I would buy 4 border walls during collection (I would lose money with 5). Now I have to buy 5. My population before the change is basically the exact same as it was, and so is my income.

Essentially, all this change did was force me to have 5 border walls... I dont have the exact numbers, but I can say with pretty decent certainty that had I collected with 5 border walls before and after the change, that my collection would have been EXACTLY the same.

Does that make sense now?

[Compstomper]

This update actually required to me get rid of a BW.

[prather6]

Does any one know exactly what the effect is on the environment for resources such as oil gold, etc. What is it in correlation with happiness and pop

[Azaghul]

I agree. The environmental bonus from border walls needs to be significantly reduced, to say -.5 or -.25 per border wall.

The biggest that this change does to large nations is make GRL hurt them a lot more.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Azaghul