The usefulness of land modifiers

[Syzygy]

Okay, I checked a lot of the descriptions of CN and I noticed that almost everywhere when it comes to calculations, only the "purchased land" size is used.

Spy Defense:

The defending nation's counter intelligence systems are determined by (number of spies) + (technology level / 20) + (land purchased / 70).

Nation Strength:

Land Purchased * 1.5 + Tanks Deployed * .75 + Tanks Defending * 1 + Cruise Missiles * 1.5 + Nuclear Purchased * 50 + Technology Purchased * 5 + Infrastructure Purchased * 3 + Actual Military * .10 + (aircraft rating totals * 5)

Battle Defense Bonus:

Since this formula is not public, I will not reveal it here. However, to my knowledge the purchased land amount is used for that bonus.

Land Population Bonus:

Since this forumla is not public, I will not reveal it here. However, to my knowledge the purchased land amount is used for that bonus.

This way, resources which modify land size have almost NO EFFECT. They are only reducing the population density, which nobody cares for anyway. De facto, the whole +x% land size bonus is currently almost useless.

I suggest that anytime it comes to land-effect calculations, the final NationSize (Purchased+Modficators+NaturalGrowth) is used instead of the Purchased Land bonus, to give these boni an effect.

In addition to that, it is only realistic. Either a nation HAS 5,000 miles of land total size, then THIS bonus counts for all operations against this nation. It makes no sense to use only a part of the land for the calculations.

Discussion please.

Edited March 21, 2008 by (DAC)Syzygy

[myruler]

I agree, if you are wasting trade slots on increasing land, it should help you SOMEHOW.

But this seems more like a suggestion.

Edited March 21, 2008 by myruler

[Viluin]

I agree, there shouldn't be a difference between purchased land and actual land when it comes to spy / battle odds and whatnot.

Battle Defense Bonus:

Since this formula is not public, I will not reveal it here. However, to my knowledge the purchased land amount is used for that bonus.

Land Population Bonus:

Since this forumla is not public, I will not reveal it here. However, to my knowledge the purchased land amount is used for that bonus.

You have those formulas?

Hey.. uhh.. I have a case of beer right here.. Maybe we could work something out?

Edited March 21, 2008 by Viluin

[Sancus]

I believe your full land size is used in the calculation when you battle another nation.

One of the important effects of the modifiers Kevin must consider is that they increase the land area by the amount of purchased land determines the land bonus. In war, when land is captured, the amount purchased goes down, causing the bonus land size to go down as well. The attacking nation can never actually capture the bonus land.

eg: I have 1200 total land and 200 of it is the land bonus- to bring my land down to zero one only needs to destroy 1000 miles of land.

Also, if you have the equation for the land population bonus PLEASE share it with me.

[admin]

(DAC)Syzygy is right with his assessment. It's a problem that needs to be addressed... so I've addressed it (as much as possible). Spy defense and battle defense now use the full land bonus+purchase+growth amount. Land population bonuses have always used the full land bonus+purchase+growth amount so no change is needed there. I cannot address the issues with nation strength or the land display when looking at nation stat pages at this time. The biggest thing here has been the issue with ground battles and that has finally been corrected.

[Delta1212]

Land population bonuses have always used the full land bonus+purchase+growth amount so no change is needed there.

Ok, good. Normally, I trust Syzygy with all his number wizardry, but I could have sworn the Pop Bonus took the full amount into consideration. Glad I'm not going crazy.

[Syzygy]

i still fight against that statement via PMs lets see how it turns out ^^. My calculator reproduces the *exact* citizen amount for a nation, and it uses the *land purchased* value to get this result, so either its magic or I am right

Edited March 22, 2008 by (DAC)Syzygy

[Delta1212]

i still fight against that statement via PMs lets see how it turns out ^^. My calculator reproduces the *exact* citizen amount for a nation, and it uses the *land purchased* value to get this result, so either its magic or I am right

I trust Syzygy with all his number wizardry

I say magic

*goes to check his numbers anyway*

I should really write my own calculator instead of being lazy and not doing it. Oh well, I'll just have to do it the long way instead. =/

Edited March 22, 2008 by Delta1212

[admin]

Ok, good. Normally, I trust Syzygy with all his number wizardry, but I could have sworn the Pop Bonus took the full amount into consideration. Glad I'm not going crazy.

Looks like the wizard has proven me wrong. Pop Bonus does not use the full bonus land totals. This will be addressed shortly.

[Delta1212]

Looks like the wizard has proven me wrong. Pop Bonus does not use the full bonus land totals. This will be addressed shortly.

Yeah, I noticed. Dammit, Syzygy! I think you just magicked the code to something else. Stop that. :angry:

[admin]

The land equation for citizens has been updated.

[Mirreille]

So this is the reason I went from 18341 to 18317 pop??? Curse you Syzygy, your magic will destroy us all!!! :angry:

Edit: I am confused about something. My pop went down, and my density went....up? I didn't buy or change anything since last night, so what is happening here??

Edited March 22, 2008 by Mirreille

[admin]

Edit: I am confused about something. My pop went down, and my density went....up? I didn't buy or change anything since last night, so what is happening here??

The game update log is your friend.

[Delta1212]

The game update log is your friend.

In light of the fact that it just killed 1,000 of my citizens, I think it is my enemy. :jihad:

[Syzygy]

i am not really sure why you lost citizens. regarding the new formula, EVERYONE should have gotten a bit more citizen. Some more then others, but nobody should have LOST citizens.

The formula used purchased_land before and uses total_land now, and since total_land should be ALWAYS more then purchased_land, nobody should have lost citizen.

I will investigate that.

edit: you had and 110,244 citizens before and have 109,890 citzens now. You lost 354 citizen, not 1,000.

I have found the reason and will discuss with the admin how he wants to handle it.

Edited March 22, 2008 by (DAC)Syzygy

[Mirreille]

The game update log is your friend.

Thank you, I'd never looked at the game update log before, that explains things nicely.

Syzygy, I have both sugar and wheat so the removal of their land bonuses is probably why I lost population.

[Syzygy]

yes, that is part of the reason, but not all. Age was providing a direct bonus to population before, but does now only via the natural growth impact. But because natural growth are land miles and those are counted in only with an impact of *0.2, while the age bonus before had an direct impact of age/2, some older nations now lost some citizen.

I have explained the details to the admin and he may decide if he wants to provide such an age bonus further or not.

[Delta1212]

i am not really sure why you lost citizens. regarding the new formula, EVERYONE should have gotten a bit more citizen. Some more then others, but nobody should have LOST citizens.

The formula used purchased_land before and uses total_land now, and since total_land should be ALWAYS more then purchased_land, nobody should have lost citizen.

I will investigate that.

edit: you had and 110,244 citizens before and have 109,890 citzens now. You lost 354 citizen, not 1,000.

I have found the reason and will discuss with the admin how he wants to handle it.

Ah, I thought I had in the upper 110k. My mistake.

To be honest, I'm not sure why I thought that. I just did my income calculations to plan for my new LC cycle yesterday, so I should have known at least approximately the correct number of citizens I had.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Delta1212

[Geiseric]

I've been searching the forums and seem to can't find the game update logs. Could someone please direct me to them?

[Zakalwe]

I've been searching the forums and seem to can't find the game update logs. Could someone please direct me to them?

Here it is. You can also find it in the "Game Related Links" section of your nation.

[Geiseric]

Ah,... didn't ever think to search the Bug Report sub forum, thanks. Seems now buying land has gained value on the account of the .02 citizens.

[Delta1212]

You aready gained citizens every time you bought land. Most people just didn't notice.

[Mirreille]

This is not a complaint, but I am looking at my nation and the numbers don't make sense to me. I've only gotten land through two $20 donations; that should be 400 miles of land in the 'purchased' area, but it is now like 368 and change. Is that also a direct result of the changes to sugar and wheat???

[Count Rupert]

Well, I see you have taken casualties so that means you have been at war at some point. Land losses during ground attacks are deducted from land purchases. That could explain your land purchase total.

[admin]

This is not a complaint, but I am looking at my nation and the numbers don't make sense to me. I've only gotten land through two $20 donations; that should be 400 miles of land in the 'purchased' area, but it is now like 368 and change. Is that also a direct result of the changes to sugar and wheat???

Your purchased (or donated) land amount is 368.640. You probably lost some of the origional 400 in war. For the sugar and wheat change effects look at your modified land amount where it says 29.491 in modifiers. This number was higher for you before today's update.

Edit: Arrr Count Rupert