The Assassination of Rhianne Sidamo by the Coward Andrea Gloval

[iKrolm]

And same here.

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1356240652' post='3067238']Source of these sites?[/quote]

I can draw arbitrary dots on a map if you like, or we can say they're in the desert in the vicinity of Triyun's half a million troops.

[Centurius]

I'll be answering your questions sometime tomorrow or the day after.

[TheShammySocialist]

Although this is a bit late on my part, considering I made my first war post a few days ago, I'll say this for myself, but as per my standard war procedure, I request any issues anyone has with my war posts be raised on IRC in query or via PM. That way it is a real-time or semi-real-time conversation and its none of this back-and-forth in what could potentially be a very active thread.

I feel as though that is the most effective way of parlaying over OOC issues, and it still leaves a paper trail that either one can fall back on.

Mucho obliged.

Let the shens continue, move along.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1356240652' post='3067238']
What kind of UGS' are you using? How are they scanning for my forces (Radar, EO, etc). How are they transmitting back to allied (your side's) forces?

Hammering home the point that those bombers of yours are super stealth does not negate the fact that you are entering a highly overlapped network set up to detect aircraft specifically similar to your 'all aspect' bombers. Just how are you able to get that close to my forces? You have not responded to the discussion we were having here. How did bombers manage to engage and destroy most of my missiles and do it in time to turn on a dime and escape? This is a flagrant god mod.



If you are refering to the RL storm shadow, what is this new extended range? Where are you shooting from?



This near perfect success rate of your MDs is a useful benchmark for this war.
[/quote]

1: They're loosely based on the UGS under the future combat program, they pretty much use the same means of detection and general concepts, where they differ however is construction and network. On the former, they are dug in at a fair depth to avoid easily mapping them and on the latter, like the real life version they communicate to the network via RF and SATCOM, however localized clusters connected through fiberoptics are a back-up to deal with problems in one of them.

2. First of all, from your post you fired two missiles at every bomber, making for a total of 24. These are bombers designed to deal with deep penetration of enemy airspace and have a defensive suite as such. Normally every bomber would have been able to fend off the missiles through for example their DEWs and the fact I gave some kills was already being pretty conservative with the defensive capabilities. They also objectively don't have that far to fly with the fighters in the air and the fact they already were close to Athenian airspace.
On the radar efficiency itself, the VHF which would be best at detecting it has a very limited range when it comes to mobile variants, as such only when they come close to the systems(like the 100km I gave you) would they be able to properly kick in. The other means of radar are not as good at defeating RAM, especially RAM designed to not only absorb radar but through internal systems vent it off. So if you constantly bombard it you will eventually get a loose fix but considering you were using it over Gloval's airspace and the distances involved aren't that far it is fair to say that you won't get your instant detection. Radar is nice but it doesn't do miracles.

3: Like the ER-M-51 1,500km. They're shooting from the edges of my territory, i.e. Egypt, Morocco the Mediterranean coastline, etc.

4: Hey had you fired them at a general area they wouldn't be as good, but Gibraltar is the hub of global commerce and military transfer. It has better defenses than most cities.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Justinian the Mighty' timestamp='1356242239' post='3067254']
I don't know they're long range ones that Tu-160's carry. They have a range of a lot. I can read your mind? (is that a real question? They're targets that can be seen by satint and numerous other ways.)
[/quote]
[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1356270381' post='3067307']
I'm following Triyun's attacks on Aeon and running off of whatever intelligence he has.
[/quote]
[quote name='Curristan' timestamp='1356278160' post='3067322']
Same here.
[/quote]
[quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1356295077' post='3067395']
And same here.

I can draw arbitrary dots on a map if you like, or we can say they're in the desert in the vicinity of Triyun's half a million troops.
[/quote]

Triyun has no intelligence as far as our war is concerned. I've seen even lesser nations than mine first have posts that describe how the attacker either performs the SATINT, ELINT or other reconnaissance type posts against them in order to procure such sensitive targets. You guys are attacking my:

-Justinian: Anti-aircraft and Airforce facilities, command and communication centers, fuel depots and transport lines.

-Markus: Space-track and control sites, PGM storage sites.

-Curristan: Radar sites along the Red Sea, supply dumps and power supply grids

-iKrolm: Air bases, Missile Launch Facilities, and Military government buildings.

without any prior RP saying how you determined where these places are. Several of these things are also considered mobile, owing to the fact that I RP a mix of static and displaceable defenses in the form of wheeled and tracked TELs and TELARS, along with self contained trailer units. Heck, at this point i'd even take one of those BS all seeing satellite scan spy rolls as proof you know where these places are. The Principality and her allies do not allow tours of their nations in advance of an enemy attack, so I don't know how your first posts in this war are missile attacks against targets you need to actually find before you attack.

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1356575585' post='3068250']
1: They're loosely based on the UGS under the future combat program, they pretty much use the same means of detection and general concepts, where they differ however is construction and network. On the former, they are dug in at a fair depth to avoid easily mapping them and on the latter, like the real life version they communicate to the network via RF and SATCOM, however localized clusters connected through fiberoptics are a back-up to deal with problems in one of them.[/quote]

Alright, smart.

[quote]
2. First of all, from your post you fired two missiles at every bomber, making for a total of 24. These are bombers designed to deal with deep penetration of enemy airspace and have a defensive suite as such. Normally every bomber would have been able to fend off the missiles through for example their DEWs and the fact I gave some kills was already being pretty conservative with the defensive capabilities. They also objectively don't have that far to fly with the fighters in the air and the fact they already were close to Athenian airspace.
On the radar efficiency itself, the VHF which would be best at detecting it has a very limited range when it comes to mobile variants, as such only when they come close to the systems(like the 100km I gave you) would they be able to properly kick in. The other means of radar are not as good at defeating RAM, especially RAM designed to not only absorb radar but through internal systems vent it off. So if you constantly bombard it you will eventually get a loose fix but considering you were using it over Gloval's airspace and the distances involved aren't that far it is fair to say that you won't get your instant detection. Radar is nice but it doesn't do miracles.[/quote]

I only fired 2 strategic class SAMs (HSAM-II and HSAM-III) from my RF&A Divisions per bomber. You are making the mistake of ignoring my Spangle-II's which are front line short-to-medium air defense missiles and are being fired at the bombers that survive the strategic SAMs until all are destroyed. My gun/missile systems are firing at the bombs themselves.

You are flying over Tataouine, how is that anywhere near your airspace? I would be able to get off a number of shots at your aircraft as they either went East to Egypt or North, North West, North East towards your nation's airspace in the Med.

Tanis gave you a good explanation as to why the set up I have is effective against your bombers. Again, the Gelert alone has the potential range of 1,800 km, you are flying to within 100 km of it. There are numerous other radars in the vicinity of both the Gelert and Maera, as well as the 33rd Infantry Division, as well as a substantial AWACs presence.

You know what, I hate myself for pulling a Kankou, but you've forced me to bite at your bait. How is your RAM that good at absorbing radar emissions from multiple angles and wavelengths, and how does it 'vent' this radar energy in a way that my passive receivers cannot detect them?

[quote]
3: Like the ER-M-51 1,500km. They're shooting from the edges of my territory, i.e. Egypt, Morocco the Mediterranean coastline, etc.[/quote]
So you're taking a missile with a range of 250 km and giving it a range of 1,500 km? Wow.

[quote]
4: Hey had you fired them at a general area they wouldn't be as good, but Gibraltar is the hub of global commerce and military transfer. It has better defenses than most cities.
[/quote]

Hey, you did it, not me. If firing at a place that has 'better defenses than most cities' constitutes a near perfect success against attacks in your side's eyes, then you've set an excellent benchmark.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1356242966' post='3067257']
Actually as I recall you said you were tracking hostile satellites. But you never actually mentioned how you did IFFs on these satellites. Last I checked and I've studied the issue quite extensively there is actually no real way of using space track radar especially if its only based over a single country to do positive threat identification. I know you get all pissy with this, but its a reality of modern war and knowing what satellites actually do is something thats actually integral to space policy. The US set this up deliberately as a political trap for the Soviet Union during the Eisenhower administration. You don't have god eyes.
[/quote]

Yeah yeah, and I'm sure you have the equivalent of A levels in military satellite theory. That is not my point. My issue is the instant, magical gleaning of rather hard to come across information. You do not know where my fleet is, yet you send satellites over that certain region and instantly detect my forces? I am not asking for multiple spyrolls or posts outlining how your satellites change their orbits to find my sats, I just want a proper order of events - a recon post, and a strike post against such difficult targets. The ocean is a huge place, Africa is a big continent.

As an aside, I said my fleet was operating with great care in the presence of enemy fleets, the same logic applies to those satellites - if I do not blast them out of the sky enmass, I blind them. As a humorous aside, seeing as how the entire treaty web is arrayed against us, it would not be farfetch'd to attack any and all ocean surveillance satellites that are not owned by the AU.


[quote]
As the developer of the missile it has 1500 kilo range. Further I see nothing wrong with Sarah moving units inside Tianxia territory the maldives any more than I didn't see you give people a huge amount of time to post about movements between Addis Abba and any other part of your country. Its long been established if your not in a fight you can move your forces around your territory at however level a pace you want. Sarah and I did exactly that.
[/quote]

What do you mean you are not in a fight? Sarah and some others posted[b] twice in the same war thread[/b] before the other side got a chance to post in/without a response. That is my issue.


[quote]
You don't need terminal guidance when you have an intact NAVSAT network. Its why the navy developed one. Further you're completely incorrect about a chance to attack UAVs or a fleet. Most of those units move outside the envelope to engage them. The only sats that are actually vulnerable to the type of attack you describe are very narrow view high res electro optical sats. other types of sats have a much wider view point and thus are harder to engage. Similarly UAVs that have a very low radar cross section and fly very high are also very hard toe engage with SAMs and again were conducting patrols outside of declaring hostilities prior.


You seem to demonstrate a fundamental remedial understanding of orbital mechanics. A LEO sat as used in space recon orbits ever 90-240 minutes. That means that unless you're pre-emtpively hitting us, which you didn't specifiy, our satellites are flying over your territory multiple times a day as the same thing with everyone. This was setup deliberately during the Cold War as a means for US recon over the USSR. If you're suddenly changing things and hitting every satellite that goes over Africa you better damn well specify, because you'd have declared war on a lot of people a long time ago. I recommend the book Neither Star Wars nor Sanctuary if you don't understand the political dimensions of space ISR during peace time.
[/quote]

You need a sensor to get that initial position of my fleet to send the missiles. You have made it clear that you used NAVSATs with your response here. You should have had a post prior that outlined that you used them to get the position of my fleet to launch the missiles. If you don't, you seem to have 'god eyes'.

Also, who says I only have SAMs on my ships? I've got a number of airborne sensors and shooters that can work together to find and shoot at your UAVs.

........

I don't understand what you intend to prove with the second paragraph I quoted. You ladies had no problem with changing your orbital paths to avoid my territory when I pretended not to want to get involved in the Khyber Pass War, and that was a request I repeatedly made IC.

While you may be right that orbital mechanics dictate that you MUST fly satellites over my territory constantly, CNRP mechanics dictate that unless you make an RP post saying you are gleaning info from these passes, you don't have that Intelligence, surveillance or reconnaissance data. Otherwise, I can make a similar claim and pre-emptively nuke your top-secret royal summer getaway home.

[quote]
Bombers are flying from Antarctica and Asia. They are very long range. The VLO cruise missiles are 3000 kilometers max range, lower with conventional warheads, turbofans, RAM materials, and VLO shaping advanced versions of modern vLO cruise missiles, ER-M-51s are in the USC threads.
[/quote]

So you mean to tell me, in the case of the 'VLO cruise missile' that you are fitting 10 of these 3000km cruise missiles to one bomber? You are also fitting 10 ER-M-51's to those bombers as well? And you're telling me these B-11's are super high stealth models? Can you please give me that USC link?

[quote]
International waters.
[/quote]

In order to be 1,400 km away from our ships, you'd probably not be in international waters.

[quote]
You said and I quote:

[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The rest of the sizeable Aeon fleet would be deployed to the friendly waters of Arctica. On both sides of the continent, care would be given to present no targets of opportunity amongst Aeon shipping[/font][/color]
[/quote]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Basic english grammatical structure means that you're on both sides of the continent.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

Basic common sense means that if you have an issue or do not understand what I post, you ask me through the various means that are available. Humoring your response to be of any significance whatsoever, how does 'you're on both sides of the continent' disagree with what I said about being in the Southern ocean, south of Vedran's landmass or south west of Madagascar? Is the south part of the continent not a side compared to the west part?


[quote]
Actually 1400 kilometers isn't well within any kill envelope unless you're pretty heavily god modding as far as insta detect on open oceans versus littoral regions around a continent. I'd again encourage you to go read a few books about Space based ISR before you make such unfathomable claims. The A-47 is a very low radar cross section very low IR emission drone, it'd actually be pretty difficult to detect on its own. The F-3 is sent out of various island bases.
[/quote]

So you are telling me that I cannot feasibly attack from 1,400 km out? How the hell are you attacking me from antarctica or even, 'and i quote': [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1356143248' post='3066785']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Simultaneously arsenal planes operating at 1500 kilometers from the targets out into the Indian would be launching swarms of of VLO cruise missiles for a second wave of approach[/font][/color]...[/quote]

The I've been as courteous and careful as I can be in regards to this war, specifically because I do not want to have this war breakdown into the OOC sludge most wars end up as. This hypocrisy, whether its out of ignorance, mistake, or out of the hopes that I do not read your posts thoroughly when I respond is not conducive to a smooth war. Stop making assumptions, stop accelerating things past the due course of war etiquette and I promise to make this conflict as painless as possible for everyone involved and reading it.

[quote]
Silent networks are linking data from other platforms to provide targeting.
[/quote]

Yes, and how are they sending the data in order to be silent to my ELINT? How did your aircraft get so close in the presence of my multiple layers of detection? Can I have the specs to that missile so i can 'better cater' my response to your attempted attacks?

[Executive Minister]

As an aside from all that Happy Holidays to everyone involved in the war. Hopefully the nukes will drop in time for the New Year

[Markus Wilding]

Is it really so hard to believe we can, I dunno, track these kinds of things with satellites? Mobile =/= undetectable. You're assuming we can't see everything when there's a chance [i]we can see everything.[/i] We're going with tens of nations all with huge satellite capabilities. It's going to be near-impossible to hide anything with this stacked against you.

[Mara Lithaen]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1356704443' post='3068790']
Is it really so hard to believe we can, I dunno, track these kinds of things with satellites? Mobile =/= undetectable. You're assuming we can't see everything when there's a chance [i]we can see everything.[/i] We're going with tens of nations all with huge satellite capabilities. It's going to be near-impossible to hide anything with this stacked against you.
[/quote]

Are you really that stupid, Markus? I hadn't pegged you for it.

You're not fighting against one nation on one small area, surrounded by your allies. You're fighting the military machine of an entire continent, where [i]we hold all the advantages.[/i] No matter how many satellites you say you have, if we see anything that isn't ours in orbit, we're removing it. That's the advantage of having the whole world against you - you can shoot anything you damned well please that isn't flying an allied flag. It is conceivable and even understandable that we're going to blast billions of dollars of satellites out of orbit pretty much every post, because we know what you're trying to do - the same thing we are. See, know, and win.

Please, don't assume that since there's [i]sooooo[/i] many of you that we can't hide as much or as little as we damned well please. Make an effort, for Christ's sakes.

Edited December 28, 2012 by Mara Lithaen

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='Mara Lithaen' timestamp='1356719456' post='3068833']
Are you really that stupid, Markus? I hadn't pegged you for it.[/quote]

No need for this, everyone has their own sense of how a military works, sometimes have a better grasp on it then others, no need to get disparaging about it.

That being said, that doesn't mean every single satellite will be brought down in a one-shot event, tracking and actual shooting down of satellites is a very complicated operation (I know, I'm stating the obvious, but bear with me), and as with your own satellites flying over our territory, we won't get them in a single pass. And I hope that is recognized by [i]both[/i] sides in this, either way, both sides have advantages when fighting on home turfs here, so its going to be a pitched back and forth battle.

You are right in saying that numbers is not exactly everything... but if this war actually does go for its duration, its going to be long, bloody, and complicated. Plain and simply speaking, there is no BOOM! Headshot for either side to make.

This is why I dug my foxhole, slipped on my helmet, and am loaded with plenty of popcorn and booze.

Edited December 28, 2012 by TheShammySocialist

[Triyun]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1356664906' post='3068702']
Yeah yeah, and I'm sure you have the equivalent of A levels in military satellite theory. That is not my point. My issue is the instant, magical gleaning of rather hard to come across information. You do not know where my fleet is, yet you send satellites over that certain region and instantly detect my forces? I am not asking for multiple spyrolls or posts outlining how your satellites change their orbits to find my sats, I just want a proper order of events - a recon post, and a strike post against such difficult targets. The ocean is a huge place, Africa is a big continent.[/quote]

First off they aren't A equivalents. Straight up As.

Actually I have a pretty damn good idea where your fleet goes and heads based on simple geographic proximity. Zanzibar and control of Arabia and the surrounding islands make it pretty easy to track the comings and goings of any fleet. Fleets rarely just stay at sea without [url="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/05/25/this_week_at_war_does_the_us_need_more_aircraft_carriers"]you have a rotation of carriers between home ports and operational deployments[/url]. Meaning your carriers in terms of their ability to track at the initial movement point is pretty easy. I own Suez so I know they're not going that direction. I own the majority of the Indian Ocean including the central islands from which I inherited the KoC's sizable tracking systems, so I know its probably not that direction. I have some degree of antarctic assets, Mexican and Athenian assets are linked into to TSI global command in Taipei, which provides some degree of access to further track movement out to the Atlantic (not that it requires a huge amount of extrapolation)

In other words, if you read you're basic naval warfare theory, which after all is derived from real world applications of naval engagements, your forces have to pass through certain very observable water points in order to move, at which point they are vulnerable to my surveillance assets. Further then you add in my space based ISR which operates on a variety of frequency not just narrow key hole electro-optical imagery, but wide area electro optical imagery, which granted doesn't provide super high resolution (but can be coordinated with other things), SAR, plus integrate that with OTH radar and drone surveillance its pretty hard to hide the movement of a large fleet. Especially in the geography that your nation is in.


[quote]As an aside, I said my fleet was operating with great care in the presence of enemy fleets, the same logic applies to those satellites - if I do not blast them out of the sky enmass, I blind them. As a humorous aside, seeing as how the entire treaty web is arrayed against us, it would not be farfetch'd to attack any and all ocean surveillance satellites that are not owned by the AU.[/quote]

Except emphasis on enemy. Did you declare war on me when I was not looking because a simple search of time stamps indicate I did target acquisitions before I declared war.


[quote]What do you mean you are not in a fight? Sarah and some others posted[b] twice in the same war thread[/b] before the other side got a chance to post in/without a response. That is my issue.[/quote]

They did not declare war or take combat action.


[quote]You need a sensor to get that initial position of my fleet to send the missiles. You have made it clear that you used NAVSATs with your response here. You should have had a post prior that outlined that you used them to get the position of my fleet to launch the missiles. If you don't, you seem to have 'god eyes'.[/quote]

You're wrong here. I did not use my nav sats to attack your ships, I used my ISR sats along with terrestrial assets to attack your ships. I used nav sats to assist in missile guidance (though I'm hardly exclusively reliant on these for that type of thing). I also attacked your nav sats.

[quote]Also, who says I only have SAMs on my ships? I've got a number of airborne sensors and shooters that can work together to find and shoot at your UAVs.[/quote]

That may be true, but the issue is if they're being engaged all the way down in the Southern Indian Oceans, its offly hard to have tactical aviation go out and engage my assets there. You're not percieving my strategy here if you see this as the issue. The issue here is that it takes an offly long time to reload individual ships missile launch systems, weeks in port in fact. It'd be a stretch to say that you can complete an [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop"]O.O.D.A. Loop[/url] where you detect an attack, orient your forces to counter it from your home bases, and are then able to decide and act by the time they hit.

[quote]
I don't understand what you intend to prove with the second paragraph I quoted. You ladies had no problem with changing your orbital paths to avoid my territory when I pretended not to want to get involved in the Khyber Pass War, and that was a request I repeatedly made IC.


While you may be right that orbital mechanics dictate that you MUST fly satellites over my territory constantly, CNRP mechanics dictate that unless you make an RP post saying you are gleaning info from these passes, you don't have that Intelligence, surveillance or reconnaissance data. Otherwise, I can make a similar claim and pre-emptively nuke your top-secret royal summer getaway home.[/quote]

I mean you're welcome to launch a nuke at Ehestadt, that's your decision. But CN RP does work this way, and its one thing to move them when requested, but its not the default position.



[quote]So you mean to tell me, in the case of the 'VLO cruise missile' that you are fitting 10 of these 3000km cruise missiles to one bomber? You are also fitting 10 ER-M-51's to those bombers as well? And you're telling me these B-11's are super high stealth models? Can you please give me that USC link?
[/quote]

External armaments, I never claimed the B-11 was my most super stealthy high speed model. Go google these questions you have with them and my name. You'd find thats false. I don't need to be super stealthy when I'm shooting a cruise missile from 3000 kilometers away, just a little stealthy. This is why the B-52's life span as a nuclear bomber was so drastically increased when we put nuclear tipped cruise missiles on them in the 80s.


[quote]In order to be 1,400 km away from our ships, you'd probably not be in international waters.[/quote]

Unless you've suddenly claimed well out to international waters yeah we would.



[quote]Basic common sense means that if you have an issue or do not understand what I post, you ask me through the various means that are available. Humoring your response to be of any significance whatsoever, how does 'you're on both sides of the continent' disagree with what I said about being in the Southern ocean, south of Vedran's landmass or south west of Madagascar? Is the south part of the continent not a side compared to the west part?[/quote]

It was pretty much thought thats what you were saying by everybody. Sarah, Shammy, myself, etc. It never came up for question. But we also have basing in that ranges that as well. I feel you are forgetting the true extent to which we control islands in the Indian Ocean. I think it'd be entirely legitimate to claim 1/2 your fleet would be towards the outer strike envelope, but its unlikely if you're claiming to be defending shipping that its all clustered at the furthest point.




[b]So you are telling me that I cannot feasibly attack from 1,400 km out? How the hell are you attacking me from antarctica or even, 'and i quote':

The I've been as courteous and careful as I can be in regards to this war, specifically because I do not want to have this war breakdown into the OOC sludge most wars end up as. This hypocrisy, whether its out of ignorance, mistake, or out of the hopes that I do not read your posts thoroughly when I respond is not conducive to a smooth war. Stop making assumptions, stop accelerating things past the due course of war etiquette and I promise to make this conflict as painless as possible for everyone involved and reading it.[/b]

Actually you've been a bit of a dick, which is pretty much the commentary that I get from everyone on my side, even those not normally inclined. But in regards to the feasibility, no you could, if you preempted Tianxia. Unfortunately I pre-empted you. I think 1400 kilos would be a prime spot for either side to launch a surprise raid on the other. This is especially true in regards to Vedran who is a significantly less advanced AUP member. As the GMs have said in the past, coalitions cannot full tech share nor can they completely operate others sensors. You'd have a lot of coverage right up against the coast of Ethiopia, but this is not applicable for South Africa. That's something that Vedran had to RP, it doesn't extend to you.



[b]Yes, and how are they sending the data in order to be silent to my ELINT? How did your aircraft get so close in the presence of my multiple layers of detection? Can I have the specs to that missile so i can 'better cater' my response to your attempted attacks?[/b]


1400 kilos is by no means a very close level of detection, nor is ELINT particularly applicable in this case. I do not really see what your point is here. Would you mind directing me to what you've been reading to explain this.

If you read modern stealth literature or the anti-access area denial stuff thats open source. Concerns come in terms of being able to be stealthy with radars in air to air combat at upper tens of kilometers lower hundred kilometers. That's when these emissions become easily detectable. The F-117 was engaged by a combination of visual observation and very short range radars and missiles. Its lack of maneuverability and general carelessness was the cause of the problem here. This has been well accounted for, and our units are pretty careful about masking their EM signatures.

Unfortunately if you're talking about ELINT emmissions out at 1400 kilometers, that's not really something that I've encountered any literature on. The only thing you could possibly be referring to are NAV SAT emissions, which do not give away locations, and are really always broadcasting in most places of the world. The only way that you'd really be able to do jamming, is (very questionably) over areas where the fleet or a physical base actually is. But at that point most warheads from any nation that use nav sats IRL or CN RP are using terminal guidance and not satellite navigation.

This really doesn't make much sense to me unless you have absolutely no respect for your opponents in general, because in cent's post you're basically claiming the ability to insta detect stealth, something I don't recognize with mobile platforms, but your then !@#$%*ing to me about me finding fleet movements of very large slow moving ships that have to move through areas pretty near to Tianxia territory. It seems like in general you're just assuming your tech is god and others is inconsequential. Navies are pretty easy to find especially when mass deployed in an era of space based ISR and vulnerable to geography, aircraft on the other hand are very fast, much easier to make stealthy, and are not vulnerable to geographic limitations. I think as far as detection it is probably you who needs to do a few edits any not anyone else. This is fairly common sense.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Triyun

[Justinian the Mighty]

Stop stalling and post ic already. I think I should get some sort of auto advance for this !@#$%^&*.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1356704443' post='3068790']
Is it really so hard to believe we can, I dunno, track these kinds of things with satellites? Mobile =/= undetectable. You're assuming we can't see everything when there's a chance [i]we can see everything.[/i] We're going with tens of nations all with huge satellite capabilities. It's going to be near-impossible to hide anything with this stacked against you.
[/quote]

I took a very calculated risk when I invaded Gloval, knowing the repercussions of doing it or not doing it. Believe me when I say that your attempts at simplifying this into a numbers game is not wise (this is an attempt to be nicer than Mara). An entire continent is a big place, but saying that your side will not be able to see ANYTHING is also unwise. This is not my issue.

My issue is that in your side's most recent fusilade of posts, not a single one of you made a recon/target acquisition post. You all simply started firing at my fleets and forces on the mainland, relying on some sort of previous knowledge of locations that you should not already have without taking the time to look for it (spy roll, RP post, etc). There will be no single spy rolls or sat sweeps that will magically find all my defenses, but its not to say that you will never come across knowledge you can act upon if you are fast enough. When I attacked Cent in Egypt, I made sure to attack only stationary targets anyone would know if I wasn't doing a roll or making recon first. That's the courtesy factor i'm pissed off about.

[quote name='TheShammySocialist' timestamp='1356728473' post='3068884']
No need for this, everyone has their own sense of how a military works, sometimes have a better grasp on it then others, no need to get disparaging about it.

That being said, that doesn't mean every single satellite will be brought down in a one-shot event, tracking and actual shooting down of satellites is a very complicated operation (I know, I'm stating the obvious, but bear with me), and as with your own satellites flying over our territory, we won't get them in a single pass. And I hope that is recognized by [i]both[/i] sides in this, either way, both sides have advantages when fighting on home turfs here, so its going to be a pitched back and forth battle.

You are right in saying that numbers is not exactly everything... but if this war actually does go for its duration, its going to be long, bloody, and complicated. Plain and simply speaking, there is no BOOM! Headshot for either side to make.

This is why I dug my foxhole, slipped on my helmet, and am loaded with plenty of popcorn and booze.
[/quote]

Good man.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1356736367' post='3068923']
Actually I have a pretty damn good idea where your fleet goes and heads based on simple geographic proximity. Zanzibar and control of Arabia and the surrounding islands make it pretty easy to track the comings and goings of any fleet. Fleets rarely just stay at sea without [url="http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/05/25/this_week_at_war_does_the_us_need_more_aircraft_carriers"]you have a rotation of carriers between home ports and operational deployments[/url]. Meaning your carriers in terms of their ability to track at the initial movement point is pretty easy. I own Suez so I know they're not going that direction. I own the majority of the Indian Ocean including the central islands from which I inherited the KoC's sizable tracking systems, so I know its probably not that direction. I have some degree of antarctic assets, Mexican and Athenian assets are linked into to TSI global command in Taipei, which provides some degree of access to the Atlantic.[/quote]

That article is a piece on how the US needs to find other alternatives to the venerated aircraft carrier group to scare Iran because of costs, I do not understand what you hope to accomplish by linking me to this. Perhaps it could be those two sentences mentioning that carriers in the pool Mattis is asking a carrier from are either in maintenance or training, or the fact that in order to have 2 maintained in a particular theatre you'll need 6 actual carriers to do it. Are you questioning my ability to use my own Navy as I wish? I do not have multiple theatres I need to constantly project power to that are extremely far from friendly ports.

[quote]
In other words, if you read you're basic naval warfare theory, which after all is derived from real world applications of naval engagements, your forces have to pass through certain very observable water points in order to not be located by my surveillance assets. Further then you add in my space based ISR which operates on a variety of frequency not just narrow key hole electro-optical imagery, but wide area electro optical imagery, SAR, plus integrate that with OTH radar and drone surveillance its pretty hard to hide the movement of a large fleet. Especially in the geography that your nation is in.
[/quote]

Alright, so Marion and Prince Edward Island, and the Crozet Archipelago under your belt, all with OTH on them I assume? Way to stretch out what could have been a much more pleasant exchange.

[quote]
Except emphasis on enemy. Did you declare war on me when I was not looking because a simple search of time stamps indicate [b]I did target acquisitions[/b] before I declared war.
[/quote]

Where, all I see are shooting posts. Link me.

[quote]
That may be true, but the issue is if they're being engaged all the way down in the Southern Indian Oceans, its offly hard to have tactical aviation go out and engage my assets there. You're not percieving my strategy here if you see this as the issue. The issue here is that it takes an offly long time to reload individual ships missile launch systems, weeks in port in fact. It'd be a stretch to say that you can complete an [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_Loop"]O.O.D.A. Loop[/url] where you detect an attack, orient your forces to counter it from your home bases, and are then able to decide and act by the time they hit.
[/quote]

Who is being engaged in the Southern Indian Ocean? I've told you multiple times that I am not there, i'm in the Southern Ocean. Hard for my aviation to go out and reach your UAVs? Just how far out are they from my ships that they are completely untouchable by the air complement i've already got up?

I can buy your sats, I can buy your OTH on the islands, but to have a maritime UAV presence scanning my ships from a distance that is unfeasible for me to engage by air while still being in range to scan my ships is a big stretch. The E-8 Joint STARS AWACs has a surface search range of 250 km with its APY-10, the E-3 Sentry has a 400 km low altitude aircraft search range of 400 km with its APY-1/2 set up (unfortunately could not find numbers for the P-3 Orion and P-8 Poseidon, but these numbers are a frame of reference as to the detection range of airborne radars).

Why would I not be able to detect and defend against the kind of missile spam attack that IC'ly is ever present in conflicts with your side? It would be foolish to think that just because you are attacking before/after dowing on me that i'd be caught unaware - that's the reason my fleet ceased its African patrol from Lamu Naval Complex to Ascension Island and redeployed to face the probable vector of attack you are now using. My fleets are at full combat alert status, have a picket of ASW and submarine units around the surface vessels and have a substantial air to air capability currently up and operational provided by my carriers and maritime patrol crafts.


[quote]
I mean you're welcome to launch a nuke at Ehestadt, that's your decision. But CN RP does work this way, and its one thing to move them when requested, but its not the default position.
[/quote]

No one can say that just because satellites must pass over territories that do not belong to them that immediately we have the intelligence you'd get if your satellites were actively looking. Some random RPer cannot have information on anyone, for example, that would otherwise be found with a spy roll or even a smidgen of RP just because satellites act the way they act. You need to make a post in order to obtain these sensitive locations on my mainland.

[Executive Minister]

[quote]
Unless you've suddenly claimed well out to international waters yeah we would.


It was pretty much thought thats what you were saying by everybody. Sarah, Shammy, myself, etc. It never came up for question. But we also have basing in that ranges that as well. I feel you are forgetting the true extent to which we control islands in the Indian Ocean. I think it'd be entirely legitimate to claim 1/2 your fleet would be towards the outer strike envelope, but its unlikely if you're claiming to be defending shipping that its all clustered at the furthest point.
[/quote]

[img]http://i710.photobucket.com/albums/ww106/mofailla/Navy.png?t=1356761130[/img]

Green circle is the location of highest probability to find an Aeon or other African vessel. 1,400 km away from the central elements of the task force would be very close to Madagascar if coming from the direction of the Indian Ocean / Maldives. If you are attacking the fringes of my fleet, that's even farther for your navy. We are roughly 2,000 km away from either Prince Edward Island or Pig Island.

[quote]
Actually you've been a bit of a dick, which is pretty much the commentary that I get from everyone on my side, even those not normally inclined. But in regards to the feasibility, no you could, if you preempted Tianxia. Unfortunately I pre-empted you. I think 1400 kilos would be a prime spot for either side to launch a surprise raid on the other. This is especially true in regards to Vedran who is a significantly less advanced AUP member. As the GMs have said in the past, coalitions cannot full tech share nor can they completely operate others sensors. You'd have a lot of coverage right up against the coast of Ethiopia, but this is not applicable for South Africa. That's something that Vedran had to RP, it doesn't extend to you.
[/quote]

I couldn't care less about whose feelings i've hurt on your side Triyun. I'm referring to the fact that I've told my people to wait until everyone on your side has had a chance to post before we consider posting. If people have asked me questions, i've answered them as concisely as possible and provided links to the hardware i've been using when asked - I haven't ignored anyone's questions or told anyone to go google my name for posts.

If you say you have tons of coverage and basing, mention them in your post to avoid this kind of problem, its all i've asked.

[quote]
1400 kilos is by no means a very close level of detection, nor is ELINT particularly applicable in this case. I do not really see what your point is here. Would you mind directing me to what you've been reading to explain this.
[/quote]

You mention your F-5s and F-6s flying in to engage my CAP and jam my ship based radars, and sending command linked NGTAMs over a silent network. You are doing this from 1,400 km out? That's insane, especially considering the fact that you advertise that you can carry 10 NGTAMs per fighter.

[quote]
This really doesn't make much sense to me unless you have absolutely no respect for your opponents in general, because in cent's post you're basically claiming the ability to insta detect stealth, something I don't recognize with mobile platforms, but your then !@#$%*ing to me about me finding fleet movements of very large slow moving ships that have to move through areas pretty near to Tianxia territory. It seems like in general you're just assuming your tech is god and others is inconsequential. Navies are pretty easy to find especially when mass deployed in an era of space based ISR and vulnerable to geography, aircraft on the other hand are very fast, much easier to make stealthy, and are not vulnerable to geographic limitations. I think as far as detection it is probably you who needs to do a few edits any not anyone else. This is fairly common sense.
[/quote]

Man, you've got to be kidding me. Nice attack on my credibility there with that strawman.

Cent flew his aircraft over hundreds of kilometers within my defensive umbrella (The Gelert radar has a range of 1,800 km, the Maera radar it works with has a range of 330 km. The AEWC&R aircraft I have flying have a range similar to the contemporary AWACs aircraft, approximately 400 km. He is attempting to claim he flew 1,700 km through Gelert's coverage and 230 km of Maera's coverage (assuming all those radars are at Terre Regius' border) as well as 300 km within the AEWC&R's range as they patrol my side of the border without me being able to detect his aircraft. That is also ignoring the other, more numerous radars present with my Medium and Short Ranged air defense units I meticulously deployed to prevent such an attack from succeeding.

At best, my vessels are within 2000 km of your islands, 1,400 km from wherever your navy is. Assuming you have a Jindalee-class OTH-B presence (3,000 km range) on PEI, Pig, Possession and Est islands is a bit of a stretch, but was one I was prepared to make had you made it clear to me you were using them. I don't buy your UAVs having a surface search range of 1,400 km, but if you explain a bit more (as i'm sure this is a misunderstanding on my part) I might concede that as well. Detecting them from Antarctica seems absurd as well, but i'll still wait for your explanation on that also.

My navy is not very near Tianxia's territory, unless Vince hid some other islands that belonged to you besides the ones i listed above. For the record, I never deployed my navy in the Red Sea or off the horn of Africa, as I never liked the proximity to both your Tanzania and Socotra. My navy moved from the Southern Atlantic near Ascension, following the coast of Africa to get to where they are. Barring satellites that would need to fly over Africa in order to track my naval movements, this is a scenario worlds apart from me 'insta-detecting' stealth on Cent.

I have not acted in a way that deserves you branding me as someone that disrespects my opponents. On the contrary, your repeated and quite obvious attempts at making me seem ill informed, or not as knowledgeable as you make you out to be the snobby prick I always knew you were. I have never attacked your credibility - I only mock it whenever you try to unfurl your flag and wave it in my face.

[quote name='Justinian the Mighty' timestamp='1356750867' post='3068971']
Stop stalling and post ic already. I think I should get some sort of auto advance for this !@#$%^&*.
[/quote]

I have a speech I prepared from both my Military leaders and my part of the AU's administration. I can post that if you want so you can quit your belly aching. Right now my movement/damage/counter attack post has too many holes that need filling by Triyun et. al. for me to feel comfortable posting. As I recall autoadvances were first created because that !@#$%^ Mudd posted once every three weeks. My side has made it perfectly clear we are around to communicate with your side at a regular interval - barring important holidays and other festivities of course.

[Markus Wilding]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1356766120' post='3069053']
I took a very calculated risk when I invaded Gloval, knowing the repercussions of doing it or not doing it. Believe me when I say that your attempts at simplifying this into a numbers game is not wise (this is an attempt to be nicer than Mara). An entire continent is a big place, but saying that your side will not be able to see ANYTHING is also unwise. This is not my issue.
[/quote]
If you seriously think I'm trying to turn this into a numbers game, then you're flat-out wrong. I hate number games. I just want this stupid war done with so I can continue with upgrading my forces, which this little war has unfortunately sidelined.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='Markus Wilding' timestamp='1356789621' post='3069098']

If you seriously think I'm trying to turn this into a numbers game, then you're flat-out wrong. I hate number games. I just want this stupid war done with so I can continue with upgrading my forces, which this little war has unfortunately sidelined.
[/quote]

Tough cookies sunshine.

If you were looking for an easy kill, you picked the wrong targets. We're not rolling over and dieing easily for anyone.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Executive Minister

[Justinian the Mighty]

If you actually posted from time to time you might be able to back up the claim, sunshine...

[Captain Enema]

Can someone make a dictionary for all the techobabble acronyms you girlscouts are throwing around?

[TheShammySocialist]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1356830295' post='3069281']
Can someone make a dictionary for all the techobabble acronyms you girlscouts are throwing around?
[/quote]

First entry;

GSA - Girl Scouts of America

[Captain Enema]

GSA> TSI!

[TheShammySocialist]

Seemingly the war is kind of bogged down in this OOC ire... but I will say this, let's face it, there's going to be mud-slinging about it, people are going to call other people out for possible disrespect and the like. The internet is a faceless place, and probably most of us don't give two !@#$% about what we're saying to one another on here, or how we are conducting ourselves. And that is probably going to be doubly true now that everyone is at each others' throats in one of the largest wars CNRP has literally seen in at least twelve months, probably more, the respect levels are probably not going to be very high for either side... nor is anyone's empathy for the feelings of someone else...

But personally, I'd like to see this war on the roll again... and I think almost everyone here can agree on that...

EM, you said that you have some holes in response posts (I'm assuming right now that you have parts of them written up), what do you need from the TSI & Co. Side to fill these holes so that you can put your responses up as it stands right now? As a [b]suggestion[/b], might I ask that we [b]bold[/b] out a person's name and have bullet points underneath it with outstanding issues that need to be seen to for this round of responses?

That way, we can get the ball rolling again, and we focus on the important and pertinent topics that are blocking a response from the AUP right now.

[Centurius]

Sorry got covered in work, I'll respond to your issues tomorrow Em.

[Captain Enema]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1356920657' post='3069653']
Sorry got covered in work, I'll respond to your issues tomorrow Em.
[/quote]

I'm having a hard time believing that they actually do any work in Europe.

Lies all of this post.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Tidy Bowl Man' timestamp='1356925735' post='3069679']
I'm having a hard time believing that they actually do any work in Europe.

Lies all of this post.
[/quote]

You got me, I was stoned.

[Captain Enema]

Far better excuse imo than actually working.