The GM's Court

[Executive Minister]

Athens has a history of propping up communist insurgents in the past. If Isaac is able to see Athens move forces to the vicinity of NA, even I would assume he's preparing to help commies out.

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Executive Minister' timestamp='1337954509' post='2972122']
Athens has a history of propping up communist insurgents in the past. If Isaac is able to see Athens move forces to the vicinity of NA, even I would assume he's preparing to help commies out.
[/quote]

While that is true, I think it is a pretty large stretch to assume and act upon with no information other than a movement of forces to Athen's own territory and history to rely on.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1337954775' post='2972125']
While that is true, I think it is a pretty large stretch to assume and act upon with no information other than a movement of forces to Athen's own territory and history to rely on.
[/quote]


I can blame santa for it if I want, thats kinda the thing about blame. Any military movement in the Atlantic will get me to pose defenses. Pretty common among nations that want to keep being a nation. Remember when Russia mobilized all those ships? What did the US do, respond with the same measure.


rolls redacted

Edited May 25, 2012 by Isaac MatthewII

[Triyun]

Consider my spyrolls cancelled before I rule on this.

Now first can a basic question be answered, how exactly is Isaac detecting movements to the Bermuda area?

[Yawoo]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1337958213' post='2972140']
Consider my spyrolls cancelled before I rule on this.

Now first can a basic question be answered, how exactly is Isaac detecting movements to the Bermuda area?
[/quote]

At the time of the complaint he did not have satellites, if that answers your question.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1337960240' post='2972157']
At the time of the complaint he did not have satellites, if that answers your question.
[/quote]

He still doesn't have military surveillance satellites.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1337960240' post='2972157']
At the time of the complaint he did not have satellites, if that answers your question.
[/quote]

He asked how I detected them not if I had satellites.

I mean ships are pretty easy to detect in that mass. I have air patrols going through out my entire nation, so you can assume JSTARs would be with them, I mean air forces dont just patrol without air ships :/.


[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1337961705' post='2972173']
He still doesn't have military surveillance satellites.
[/quote]

actually that is exactly what a Skynet 4 is...

Edited May 25, 2012 by Isaac MatthewII

[Centurius]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1337963906' post='2972193']
He asked how I detected them not if I had satellites.

I mean ships are pretty easy to detect in that mass. I have air patrols going through out my entire nation, so you can assume JSTARs would be with them, I mean air forces dont just patrol without air ships :/.
[/quote]

The Central Atlantic is not a small pool and my ships never move in close formations. This has been the case for years. Bermuda isn't within range of your patrols and even if it were I challenge you to find a F-5 before you are within range of its cannon, let alone missile range. Add to that there are several nations in North America I could position myself against so even if you could find and track my stuff it'd be a stretch to assume a strike against yourself because no public announcement was ever made.

It's a metagame, and you could only pull it off because I gave you time for the preplanning phase. So you can add abuse of the preplan rule to the list of violations.

[Isaac MatthewII]

I didnt say I found an F-5, your MOB is enough to get me concerned, bermuda is like 600 miles from SC, definitely within RADAR range of a JSTAR.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1337983716' post='2972396']
I didnt say I found an F-5, your MOB is enough to get me concerned, bermuda is like 600 miles from SC, definitely within RADAR range of a JSTAR.
[/quote]

The MOB was there already, you're stretching.

[Isaac MatthewII]

Ok, so how about the rest of your navy changing patrols to just the south? I would definitely detect movements like that, anything within range that has a RADAR reading. Even if somehow you avoided my JSTARs, you wouldn't be able to avoid my satellite that I just launched.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1337986296' post='2972434']
Ok, so how about the rest of your navy changing patrols to just the south? I would definitely detect movements like that, anything within range that has a RADAR reading. Even if somehow you avoided my JSTARs, you wouldn't be able to avoid my satellite that I just launched.
[/quote]

In response to my military movements so that one is under debate too. Also you still wouldn't notice it really, it's common for navies to change their movements.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1337986655' post='2972439']
In response to my military movements so that one is under debate too. Also you still wouldn't notice it really, it's common for navies to change their movements.
[/quote]

Its really not your place to say what gets my nations to pose defenses. The satellite has been in development since I had the space program, so I just launched it because, ya know, I just had a threat of civil war rise in my country. Not one time in that post do I mention you.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Isaac MatthewII

[Centurius]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1337987853' post='2972446']
Its really not your place to say what gets my nations to pose defenses. The satellite has been in development since I had the space program, so I just launched it because, ya know, I just had a threat of civil war rise in my country. Not one time in that post do I mention you.
[/quote]

When the first post in a chain specifically mentions a nation and a pattern of defensive constructions start after it it's pretty heavily implied. As metagaming is against the rules and it all was allowed to happen due to the preplan rule it's pretty much my place.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1337990356' post='2972472']
When the first post in a chain specifically mentions a nation and a pattern of defensive constructions start after it it's pretty heavily implied. As metagaming is against the rules and it all was allowed to happen due to the preplan rule it's pretty much my place.
[/quote]

Well first off there are no GMs yet to decide if its metagaming, and its not, the combo of your massive fleet and air squadron movements and me being on the brink of civil war. I would say that is more then enough for military preparedness and a heightened REDCON. I didnt imply anything, I had an RP developing and it folded out. I was planning on the launch this week anyways. I know its hard to think there may be RPs other then your plans, but I had a nation running and a plan for my RP.

[Voodoo Nova]

I've offered my services as a neutral party to Cent and Isaac, and they have agreed. With that said, I have a couple of points to make.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110980&view=findpost&p=2971779"]Isaac's First Response[/url]


There is only one issue with this post.

[quote]The United Carolinian Navy has detected a large offensive posturing in the Atlantic by Athens. All condition levels raised to 3, The United Carolinian Navy, Air Force, and Army have been set to DEFCON 2 in response.[/quote]

The actions in the post are not a metagame, as you can mobilize for whatever reason you desire, but to declare it is due to Athenian posturing without stating how you discovered it is a metagame. The simple fix is saying how you discovered their movements. Even if you state you used JSTARS (and assuming it is the Northrop E-8), their approximate range is 152 miles. Cents movements are near Bermuda, which is about 5x that distance from the North Carolina coast. Satellites also have a tough time discovering moving objects and the direction they are going. It takes hundreds of pictures to find out where exactly they are moving. You also have a difficult time discovering the owner of the vessels based on satellite imagery. You can infer or assume, but you cannot declare it as fact from satellites.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110980&view=findpost&p=2972048"]Isaac's Satellite Post[/url]

There are only two real issues with this post.

[quote]This was your average communication and surveillance satellite, but it was amred with a Mid-Infrared Advanced Chemical Laser (MIACL) for anti satellite operations. It would be ordered to start anti satellite manouvers as soon as it was within range of the enemy satellite. This satellite and its launch were done under wraps so as to avoid any unwanted eyes gazing on the technology of the system. [/quote]

I remember talking to you about anti-satellite weapons the other day. Space-based weapons are not allowed, based on mod rules. That counts as a space-based weapon. If the laser was located on Earth it would be fine, but useless. Rocket launches are also usually easily spotted by neighbors, or anyone with some form of anti-missile technology in the region.


I'll take a look at everything else later tonight, but I have to go. I hope this helps.

[Kankou]

With a new regime establish, I believe we should discuss the current GM system as the elections are ongoing.


[quote name='Megabyte' timestamp='1337963080' post='2972186']
Effective immediately:

1) All GMs will be removed from their positions.

2) GMs will no longer be mod appointed, but elected from the CNRP community by the CNRP community every month.

3) GMs will be subject to impeachment by a majority vote of the community and subject to immediate replacement via emergency election.

Pure and simple reasoning: Not many of the mods know much at all about CNRP, some nothing at all. It's none of our business to determine who and how your system runs, that's something that YOU guys spent your time and effort creating and something YOU deserve to have agency of. We generally won't meddle in your RP affairs and will let you decide who runs your community based on criteria YOU think are important. We will, however, continue to enforce the forum rules in the CNRP forums, so follow them.

In addition: these are guidelines, if you feel longer/shorter terms are necessary, different voting numbers are necessary for election/impeachment, feel free to make those changes. It's YOUR system.

Whenever you're ready, feel free to post an election thread, at the end of the election, post in RFA and we'll lock it for you to keep the forum tidy.
[/quote]

1. I would respectfully suggest that the GM term be not a month, but three months, with the first term officially starting at June 1st. So basically, the terms will be June~August, September~November, December~ February, March~May.

2. As indicated by the sentence "It's none of our (mods') business to determine who and how your (CNRP players') system runs", this basically means the mods shall be following a hands-off approach, meaning all arguments about "mod rules" are basically superseded should we decide on something, This includes but not limited to rules on space weapons and lasers. So yes, now, it is us, the players, who make the rules.

3. People might be afraid of the impeachment part. However, with CNRP player number reaching 60, we would need a 30+ vote for any impeachment procedures to succeed. Therefore, I don't think there is anything to worry about here. I'm actually for reducing the numbers (see follow-up)

4. Given the large numbers of relatively inactive players (basically those who never bother to vote in any polls and just do their own thing), I believe we can reduce the required vote numbers to 1/3 of all players (as long as there are less than 1/3 opposing). This means that any vote would need at least 20 votes for it to succeed, a pretty high number in any circumstances.


These have been my suggestions. Hoping we have a civil discussion about this.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1337993638' post='2972505']
With a new regime establish, I believe we should discuss the current GM system as the elections are ongoing.




1. I would respectfully suggest that the GM term be not a month, but three months, with the first term officially starting at June 1st. So basically, the terms will be June~August, September~November, December~ February, March~May.

2. As indicated by the sentence "It's none of our (mods') business to determine who and how your (CNRP players') system runs", this basically means the mods shall be following a hands-off approach, meaning all arguments about "mod rules" are basically superseded should we decide on something, This includes but not limited to rules on space weapons and lasers. So yes, now, it is us, the players, who make the rules.

3. People might be afraid of the impeachment part. However, with CNRP player number reaching 60, we would need a 30+ vote for any impeachment procedures to succeed. Therefore, I don't think there is anything to worry about here. I'm actually for reducing the numbers (see follow-up)

4. Given the large numbers of relatively inactive players (basically those who never bother to vote in any polls and just do their own thing), I believe we can reduce the required vote numbers to 1/3 of all players (as long as there are less than 1/3 opposing). This means that any vote would need at least 20 votes for it to succeed, a pretty high number in any circumstances.


These have been my suggestions. Hoping we have a civil discussion about this.
[/quote]

3. Those rules aren't modrules but were established by a community vote a few months ago.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1337993971' post='2972510']
3. Those rules aren't modrules but were established by a community vote a few months ago.
[/quote]
People still bring up "mod rules", like Voodoo right before my post. Furthermore, link to the poll?

Edited May 26, 2012 by Kankou

[Lynneth]

I for one would approve of 3-month terms. That's all for now.

[Isaac MatthewII]

[quote name='Voodoo Nova' timestamp='1337992860' post='2972501']
I've offered my services as a neutral party to Cent and Isaac, and they have agreed. With that said, I have a couple of points to make.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110980&view=findpost&p=2971779"]Isaac's First Response[/url]


There is only one issue with this post.



The actions in the post are not a metagame, as you can mobilize for whatever reason you desire, but to declare it is due to Athenian posturing without stating how you discovered it is a metagame. The simple fix is saying how you discovered their movements. Even if you state you used JSTARS (and assuming it is the Northrop E-8), their approximate range is 152 miles. Cents movements are near Bermuda, which is about 5x that distance from the North Carolina coast. Satellites also have a tough time discovering moving objects and the direction they are going. It takes hundreds of pictures to find out where exactly they are moving. You also have a difficult time discovering the owner of the vessels based on satellite imagery. You can infer or assume, but you cannot declare it as fact from satellites.

[url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110980&view=findpost&p=2972048"]Isaac's Satellite Post[/url]

There are only two real issues with this post.



I remember talking to you about anti-satellite weapons the other day. Space-based weapons are not allowed, based on mod rules. That counts as a space-based weapon. If the laser was located on Earth it would be fine, but useless. Rocket launches are also usually easily spotted by neighbors, or anyone with some form of anti-missile technology in the region.


I'll take a look at everything else later tonight, but I have to go. I hope this helps.
[/quote]

Well to the post about HOW I discovered the movements, I will edit it to fit that. To the satellite, it is not a lazer "pew pew BOOM" laser, it is basically interference. Shooting the laser to move the satellite against its will or impair its detectors. I am pretty sure that is considered defensive measures not "spess weapons". Though I havnt used them yet and probably wont in this war.

[Voodoo Nova]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1337999941' post='2972580']
Well to the post about HOW I discovered the movements, I will edit it to fit that. To the satellite, it is not a lazer "pew pew BOOM" laser, it is basically interference. Shooting the laser to move the satellite against its will or impair its detectors. I am pretty sure that is considered defensive measures not "spess weapons". Though I havnt used them yet and probably wont in this war.
[/quote]

I know what type of laser you're using. Anyways, that's fine. Once you edit your post to determine how, [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110980&view=findpost&p=2972052"]this post[/url] won't be a metagame when referring to your Intel suggesting Athens.

Kankou: I refer to them as mod rules because that is how I remember them.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Voodoo Nova

[Centurius]

[quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1337994077' post='2972513']
People still bring up "mod rules", like Voodoo right before my post. Furthermore, link to the poll?
[/quote]

Not a poll, something much better. A discussion with pretty unanimous consent.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100500

And well, a few people weren't active when the rules were under discussion so they're probably stuck in the time when it was moderation doing it.

[Centurius]

[quote name='Isaac MatthewII' timestamp='1337999941' post='2972580']
Well to the post about HOW I discovered the movements, I will edit it to fit that. To the satellite, it is not a lazer "pew pew BOOM" laser, it is basically interference. Shooting the laser to move the satellite against its will or impair its detectors. I am pretty sure that is considered defensive measures not "spess weapons". Though I havnt used them yet and probably wont in this war.
[/quote]

Lasers don't work like that and if they did it would very much be offensive.

As for detection I'm looking forward to finding out how considering at the time you didn't have satellites, your post indicates your surveillance remains within territorial waters and the Central Atlantic isn't a small thing.

[Kankou]

[quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1338032344' post='2972703']
Not a poll, something much better. A discussion with pretty unanimous consent.

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=100500

And well, a few people weren't active when the rules were under discussion so they're probably stuck in the time when it was moderation doing it.
[/quote]
I have to believe that we have the issue of "what is a space-based weapon". It seems "pretty unanimous consent" is limited to space-to-earth weapons. Was there ever a conclusive consensus on space-to-space? No, it was always flipflopped by the GM team that was removed. Also, more than an year isn't really "a few month".

I believe there is still room for discussions.

Edited May 26, 2012 by Kankou