Zoot Zoot Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/117972-new-order-in-power/?p=3219123 In this post Vektor/Malatose moves his fleet into the Atlantic. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/82847-the-athens-times/?p=3218442 In this post, the last paragraph, Cent RP's blocking Siths access to the med and by extension, the atlantic... this post also also a few days earlier than vektors. Can somebody clear this up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Should the fleet originate from the Med it is in fact impossible for him to have made that move yes, if it already was outside my blockade won't do much to block it. Of course such a thing needs to be proven with prior rp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatose Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/117972-new-order-in-power/?p=3207623 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/82847-the-athens-times/page-21#entry3219767 I got to say Cent this seems excessive. Also insta tech upgrading seems gamey, especially considering how much man hours it takes to learn to fly specific planes. Finally shouldn't mass transfers of equipment into war zones (which Austria and Prussia are easily in range) be done in a war thread, so Cent and Shammy have an opportunity to counter. Also these [i]if[/i] they are allowed should count towards casualties when transfered and they shouldn't be allowed to replace units already lost. Edited January 23, 2014 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/82847-the-athens-times/page-21#entry3219767 I got to say Cent this seems excessive. Also insta tech upgrading seems gamey, especially considering how much man hours it takes to learn to fly specific planes. Finally shouldn't mass transfers of equipment into war zones (which Austria and Prussia are easily in range) be done in a war thread, so Cent and Shammy have an opportunity to counter. Also these if they are allowed should count towards casualties when transfered and they shouldn't be allowed to replace units already lost. Most of the equipment was specifically designed to be compatible with older platforms pilots came from, additionally allies are made familiar with Athenian equipment to guarantee inter-changeability during war. Furthermore Shammy has also armed groups outside of the war thread(you yourself responded in said thread), as neither Shammy or Vekt have rp'd forces in range of either the Athenian-Prussian or Athenian-Austrian(I should add Austria has yet to formally enter the war) borders thus I see no reason why they should have a right to contest them. I'm afraid that final sentence doesn't make sense so I can't respond that. Technology transfers from highly advanced nations to primitive armies has become quite common in this war so unless you want to oppose all of those I see no reason to change anything about this. Additionally such transfers of technology are not without RL precedent and realistic timeframes haven't been enforced in rp since 2008. Edited January 23, 2014 by Centurius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triyun Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) I don't think there has been anything on this huge a scale as entire air forces after a war begins to be precedence since then. That just doesn't pass an honor or a smell test. Come on it cheapens you as a fighter. Beyond that I specifically remember you complaining about me giving Sarah assistance when we were merged to go full Gen 6. You're doing that with nations who aren't even that. Also cruise missiles and his planes easily range all of Prussia and Austria. Edited January 23, 2014 by Triyun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yes I did complain about it then but it didn't stop you and I have since opted to join it rather than to continue fighting against it. For Austria the war has yet to begin and for Prussia it still is just out of already existing reserves, a production process that has been happening continuously since the fighter was first announced rl years ago. Yes cruise missiles and his planes easily range all of Prussia and Austria. ICBMs reach all of the world, should I consider all arms deals subject to that then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthey Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) It's worth noting that I also have sufficient tech to support 6th gen fighters. Regardless, arms transactions make sense RPwise given that re-inventing the wheel is generally frowned upon, and in either case this isn't something that started this morning- our IC treaty clearly stipulates the creation of governance bodies directed towards facilitating the sharing of technology and general arms transactions. This was in the cards from day one. Edited January 23, 2014 by iamthey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostGloriousLeader Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/117972-new-order-in-power/?p=3207623 I don't think there's actually anything about where this base is located though. :mellow: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/82847-the-athens-times/page-21#entry3219767 I got to say Cent this seems excessive. Also insta tech upgrading seems gamey, especially considering how much man hours it takes to learn to fly specific planes. Finally shouldn't mass transfers of equipment into war zones (which Austria and Prussia are easily in range) be done in a war thread, so Cent and Shammy have an opportunity to counter. Also these if they are allowed should count towards casualties when transfered and they shouldn't be allowed to replace units already lost. Most of the equipment was specifically designed to be compatible with older platforms pilots came from, additionally allies are made familiar with Athenian equipment to guarantee inter-changeability during war. Furthermore Shammy has also armed groups outside of the war thread(you yourself responded in said thread), as neither Shammy or Vekt have rp'd forces in range of either the Athenian-Prussian or Athenian-Austrian(I should add Austria has yet to formally enter the war) borders thus I see no reason why they should have a right to contest them. I'm afraid that final sentence doesn't make sense so I can't respond that. Technology transfers from highly advanced nations to primitive armies has become quite common in this war so unless you want to oppose all of those I see no reason to change anything about this. Additionally such transfers of technology are not without RL precedent and realistic timeframes haven't been enforced in rp since 2008. I do have issues with what is happening here, and this goes for both sides. I don't think there has been the precedent of a single nation instantly and completely providing another nation with an advanced 6th gen air force (as far as I can remember). Even if there is I would still disagree and say that that is borderline abuse at the very least. I understand that people RP strategic aircraft reserves. I do as well, although they're generally all stuff I took out of service not top line fighters. The main issues I have here is this: First, the size of these reserves. I feel that the stockpiling of enough top line fighters to equip 3 whole airforces by one nation is a deliberate circumcision of the aircraft limit. I could understand selling them a bunch of em before the war started or giving them fairly large amounts of older aircraft that you used to operate but this is a potential abuse in my opinion. Solid numbers on how much you have vs how many you're providing would also be nice although I really hope it isn't excessive. Second, the time involved in readying these reserve aircraft. I can perhaps see large amounts of reserve aircraft being mobilized over a period of weeks or months but not instantaneously. I mean sure you might keep a couple dozen or so on enhanced readiness for possible emergencies and I could get behind that. But the whole point of an air reserve is putting aircraft that are currently deemed unnecessary to operate into a condition where maintenance is cheap and easy. Readying them for operation would surely require something more than a day, especially on the scale being attempted here. Then you gotta transport them, find pilots and then train them to fly the plane, which definitely takes time. This all also applies to shammy's "Flying Tigers" operation, although so far he's ok since all he's really done is announce the creation of the program rather than hop right in and say he immediately gets a crap ton more planes. Something like this doesn't happen overnight. First you gotta get the volunteers to the destination, then you need to get them planes, then you need to train them. Another issue with this proposal is where the planes are coming from and that would also need to be done in a reasonable way and timeframe. Third, the ability of the airforces of Prussia and Austria to immediately master flying these new 6th gen aircraft is a bit iffy to me. As far as I know they have no militaries at all since I can't find military developments by either of them :P. But intermittent training doesn't allow one to master the ability to fly an aircraft especially when that is not the aircraft you are principally supposed to fly. Not to mention the scale of cross training needed to allow pilots of one nation to completely be interoperable and able to fly aircraft from another nation operating different aircraft. Have you rp'ed actually doing this with the prussian and austrian militaries? EDIT: This is all my opinion on the matter. I would refer with the other GMs but shammy is a part of this war and I'm not sure if melech will be too, I'll ask about it. If that is the case I'm all alone :( Edited January 23, 2014 by MostGloriousLeader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted January 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Readying the aircraft in a day is about as absurd as rallying 30k soldiers and making them combat-ready and transporting them across the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostGloriousLeader Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) It's worth noting that I also have sufficient tech to support 6th gen fighters. Regardless, arms transactions make sense RPwise given that re-inventing the wheel is generally frowned upon, and in either case this isn't something that started this morning- our IC treaty clearly stipulates the creation of governance bodies directed towards facilitating the sharing of technology and general arms transactions. This was in the cards from day one. Here's the thing. If this was peacetime there wouldn't really be any issues with that. You could buy them or make as many of them as you wanted within the limits. But this isn't peacetime. Cent, shammy and yawoo are embroiled in a war. From the sounds of it you are going to be joining soon too. Without previous RP doing something like instantly developing a 6th gen aircraft or getting them all gifted from cent and then hopping into the fight is very iffy in my opinion. Edited January 23, 2014 by MostGloriousLeader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Here's the thing. Cent does have a point that logistics, for the most part, have been traditionally ignored for the most part in CNRP wars, although we have pretty much implemented the fact that things must be RPed out to common sense. However, Triyun is also correct that Shammy should have the ability to do something about this transfer. While ShamSham has, so far in this war, not really established air superiority or anything over his neighbors, and it is only the end of the journey where Cent's stuff would be in any real danger, he can at least try to do something about it. Obviously, these new planes and stuff would not be coming all at once. Cent, in his post, pretty much said that these planes would be replacing older models that are lost in combat, so it's not like 1000 planes in each country are replaced instantly. And cent, even though the technology is the same, pilots will need time to adjust to new aircraft and find out their true capabilities and limits. In WWII, pilots, especially in the Red Air Force, were constantly switching aircraft as new and better models arrived, even moving to fighters provided by America, but they still needed time to get acquainted with their planes. Frankly, the best way to make this all go away is for Cent to provide specific numbers of how many planes are being shipping over the border every week or so (or just say that they are sent as needed to replaced downed aircraft), as long as that number is sane, and to allow Shammy to ICly contest these things if he RPs a logical and un-metagamey way of doing so. It's worth noting that I also have sufficient tech to support 6th gen fighters. Regardless, arms transactions make sense RPwise given that re-inventing the wheel is generally frowned upon, and in either case this isn't something that started this morning- our IC treaty clearly stipulates the creation of governance bodies directed towards facilitating the sharing of technology and general arms transactions. This was in the cards from day one. Just to let you know that starting on February 1, nobody will really have enough tech for 6th gen, as that is when our 2022 tech scale goes into effect. According to most experts, 6th gen won't really be operational until around 2030. THESE ARE MY OPINIONS! I HAVE SPOKEN! CORGI! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MostGloriousLeader Posted January 23, 2014 Report Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yeah, what the corgi said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatose Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Sorry for the confusion, I should have been clearer, but the islands are located to the Southwest of Cent's Islands (off of Portugal) in the North Atlantic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yawoo Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 The February 1st deadline won't change the current war, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 The February 1st deadline won't change the current war, right? Correct. You guys are grandfathered in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted January 24, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Sorry for the confusion, I should have been clearer, but the islands are located to the Southwest of Cent's Islands (off of Portugal) in the North Atlantic. I have to say that seems awfully convenient to suddenly have them be near my territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShammySocialist Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I daresay that the placement can be construed as convenient, I'm not going to debate that. But I believe that there is enough prior RP to establish that there were artificial island bases established somewhere in the Atlantic. How we deal with their placement being so close to Cent's territory is another matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Enema Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Could just voluntarily say they won't play a part in the upcoming kerfluffle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShammySocialist Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 Either way. I'd like to see some movement in this war this weekend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malatose Posted January 24, 2014 Report Share Posted January 24, 2014 I remember discussing the location of the Islands before I built them. You didn't have a problem with the location then. But to be honest, They'd be next to your territories anyway, since you basically have land throughout the Atlantic. They're already at a disadvantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centurius Posted January 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 I remember discussing the location of the Islands before I built them. You didn't have a problem with the location then. But to be honest, They'd be next to your territories anyway, since you basically have land throughout the Atlantic. They're already at a disadvantage. You might have discussed it but not with me in the channel at that time because if I was there I would have objected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentDavid Posted January 25, 2014 Report Share Posted January 25, 2014 So I'm assuming their location was never RPed but they were RPed being built? Interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheShammySocialist Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 Although I know there have been statements made that posts will happen, this war is starting to drag. Requesting an auto-advance be granted at 1800 Hours EST - Monday, January 27th, if no movement has come from my honorable opponents. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiserMelech Mikhail Posted January 26, 2014 Report Share Posted January 26, 2014 I'm cool with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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