magicninja

Did you read Omni's last paragraph Zeke? It seems omni did try to do some diplomacy but was shunned by RoK. Try to keep up.

I heard it was reps and two weeks of battle agreed to but then rescinded by RoK. So I guess it's back to square one.

[quote name='CptGodzilla' timestamp='1281464088' post='2409950'] alliances do it when they tell you they are going to pound you if you aid the tech raid target.... and you do it anyway [/quote] Yeah, but why would you do it? A raid target having more to raid and lasting longer during a raid is a good thing.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281462997' post='2409929'] It's not my personal feeling either, but historically unaligned get treated like dirt. Whatever label you want to apply to the situation is ok by me. I call them rogues because it's a common term, and I've used it to describe people my "enemies" have hit, as well. [/quote] Well I think the proper bob definition of a rogue is a nation who engages in hostile actions against another nation without provocation. This makes tech raiders rogues too but since they can beat up their opponent and no one is usually legally protecting the target it doesn't matter. When someone is protecting the rogue's target is when things get dicey for the rogue. When someone is also protecting the rogue that's when things can lead to war as we have seen this weekend.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281462496' post='2409913'] Clearly they do when you admit the unaligned with active wars and then aid him. Not saying this was a tech raid gone bad, but unaligneds have caused wars before and they have this time as well. [/quote] Like I have said before it seems Rok is well within their right in this case. I think it is heavy handed but that's just personal choice. NSO was not innocent here. I get it. Don;t have to preach to me man. I just took issue with you saying that if an unaligned is attacked and fights back he is the rogue. That isn't the case as anyone should know.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281462132' post='2409900'] Ok even if we don't call him a rogue he still has no rights, because tech raids are commonplace. Historically that's always been the case, and alliances have always refused admittance if you have active wars regardless of the circumstances. [/quote] Yes, but do alliances pound other alliances for aiding a tech raid target? Hell, I would appreciate someone sending them money for me to raid.

[quote name='Aurion' timestamp='1281461864' post='2409890'] Well, [i]someone[/i] spied on the TENE guy, ad-whatever, whilst sedrick was busily threatening him with war as mentioned before- and this was before sedrick himself got spied. I can certainly see how it leads to the conclusion that sedrick was the one doing it- coincidences like that don't exist. On the flip side the guy's counter intel unluckiness leaves something people can point at and yell "YOU DON'T KNOW 100%". ...Even though it isn't the reason for the bleeding war to start with, I know. [/quote] I'm not applying my opinion on when someone is a rogue to this case. My opinion is just in general. If what you say is the case then sure I can see sedrick being a rogue. No proof of it but it does look like he initiated it.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281461784' post='2409887'] This is semantics. At the end of the day, NSO admitted someone with active wars, and then aided him after the other side said not too. Both have been historically bad moves on Planet Bob, wouldn't you agree? [/quote] I'm not defending NSO's moves here. Like I said I won't deny RoK's right to do what they did. I'm just saying that unaligned or not if you are attacked first you are not the rogue in the situation. Whether that even applies here or not I don't know.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281461318' post='2409867'] They can defend all they want, but let's not pretend like Planet Bob values the rights of the unaligned. For the record, I banned tech raids as SecDef of R&R. [/quote] True enough but c'mon there is a distinction that if you were attacked first no matter the means then you are defending yourself and not a rogue. That should be common sense. You can't change the rules because of AA. The unaligned may not be able to win his war but he certainly is not a rouge. The person who attacked him first is.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281459059' post='2409808'] If he's unaligned when you do it, yeah, that would make him a rogue. If you do it to him while he has the AA he has, I'll enjoy coming out of peace mode. [/quote] So unaligned nations have no right to defend themselves? Is that what I'm reading? Look I won't deny RoK's right to do what they did. That is their choice. However, when faced with the same exact situation....except our rogue was nuclear. We only demanded equal aid to our people fighting the rogue. At most we would've demanded the heads of the aiders. So, to me a few weeks of war seems heavy handed. I understand their are some details like Hoo telling them war was the price and that heft is some kind of gov in NSO.

[quote name='Beefspari' timestamp='1281456597' post='2409755'] Random thought: NSO doesn't want anyone to help them anyway, so what's it matter if GATO cancelled? They're somehow cowards for walking out on an alliance that doesn't want their help to begin with? Man that's confusing. [/quote] It's really not about us being cowards Beefspari. Some just don't have the brain to think of any better insults that may actually apply. One reason why I was upset about the way this went down is because it's like watching your friend take an $@! beating and instead of helping the guy up you run over and pour salt in his wounds. You don't do that to people. Especially people that have always stood up for you. If we really thought there was a violation of the treaty we should have waited until this was over and discussed the communication issue with them after. That would have been my advice had I been here. Any person who knows anything about CN politics knows that this kind of action is PR suicide. Believe me I've had some tough words for our leaders who took part in this thing the last few days. Basically it's not the action Beefspari. It's the timing. Had we canceled on NSO last week for communication issues this thread would have died at 5 pages with a bunch of "sad but necessary" posts. Pouring salt on a supposed friend during a bad time won't earn you much praise except from those who really care about you. Which I appreciate from our allies. Thanks for the support guys.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281418096' post='2409185'] From what I'm reading they knew about what was about to happen before the NSO did. So, the cancellation reason is a a flimsy one based on what has been stated in this discussion. Expecting NSO to inform GATO when GATO had, apparently, already told NSO what was happening seems asinine to me. [/quote] I think Omni's point was he would like to have been notified at the first sign of trouble (ie as soon as Hoo threatened war) and not when war was already imminent. Don't take it as me agreeing with the way it went down. It's blatantly obvious this was done in way too much of a rush. Hell, I only got to comment on what I thought of what we did and had no input on how we should have went about this. I'm just trying to let you guys know what Omni was thinking as I have heard it. If you're going to give Omni !@#$ over it then at least do it knowing the facts and not arguing falsehoods.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281416967' post='2409140'] So, that kind of cancels out the GATO "we didn't know!" excuse then whichever way it panned out. [/quote] I think Omni's gripe is we should've found out from NSO and not VE who wasn't even directly involved.

[quote name='Tygaland' timestamp='1281416670' post='2409131'] By the same token, why didn't GATO inform NSO of impending war as per the treaty? They had been told by their allies on the other side and had, apparently, heard nothing from the NSO about it. The bottom line is that GATO wanted to cancel this treaty and they took this as their chance to do it while on the moral high ground. Most people can see through that. If you want to cancel a treaty then just be honest about it or, more importantly, stop signing high level treaties for show rather than substance in the first place. [/quote] Omni did inform NSO of the impending attack. As it is GATO is being viewed by some as a security leak now. GATO never had plans to cancel this treaty. As far as I know there are very few members who speak poorly of NSO within our alliance. NSO have been good friends. We've been planning a join venture for awhile now which was a day from fruition. I loved working with NSO. I have not seen any signs from our Gov that shows they felt otherwise. GATO made a mistake from what looks like a knee jerk reaction to feeling left out and maybe a little paranoia. I can't speak for everyone for their reasons here. Perhaps something will come to light on how this decision was ultimately reached. I wish I had been there for it. I would've railed against this course of action.

[quote name='Griff' timestamp='1281400019' post='2408702'] He said nothing about hindsight, but keep on spinning [/quote] Jam a !@#$%^& in it you crap. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because I love him. you don;t have to though.

I think kersch was saying in hindsight it was a mistake. I love him though. Other than that well this definitely has had an impact on us. I'll say again I wish I was here when it all started. I would've tried to have things turn out different.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281388460' post='2408349'] Well, if he isn't a liar then he was planning on rolling NSO if asked to the dance. Do you plan to keep this protectorate? [/quote] Emp's comments were way out of line and if it were up to me we would be getting heckled for canceling on them as well. He has 0 influence over what GATO does and for him to say publicly that he does pisses me off to no end.

This is what I get for taking a break for a day. I read the entire thread and I've seen logs and I've talked to Omni and others about what the hell has gone down here. So I'd like to bring up a few points. 1. NSO didn't ask for help so obviously this move wasn't about saving our @#$%. So, the coward !@#$ can stop now. Thanks. 2. The timing was !@#$@#$ horrific. I wish I had been there to tell our gov exactly what they were asking for posting this now. 3. GATO has come to expect nearly instant notification of trouble. Our other allies routinely let us know of things going bad during the initial talks on someone's $%&@ ups. Even if things don't look that bad we are told as soon as a problem shows itself. Maybe NSO neglecting to tell us until the next day of a problem isn't all that bad. Maybe we are just spoiled by other allies. However, I have to agree that NSO (Heft,RV, whoever was on at the time of Hoos threat)should have said hey Hoo said he may roll us if x. Then we could have said then for $%&@s sake man don't do x. We never got that shot though. 4. I don't think GATO could have done anything for NSO even if they did ask for help after all of this !@#$. Our charter relegates us to a defensive alliance. We CAN NOT intervene if an ally brings war upon themselves as is clearly the case here. Our allies should know this by now. If the attacks were unprovoked we'll ride with you til the end. 5. The idea that GATO has been looking for a reason to get out of this treaty is !@#$@#$ absurd. Sure some weren't happy with it but the majority of our members and gov got along great with NSO. GATO and NSO had actually been working on joint project as of two days ago. I certainly hope this doesn't stop that RV. 6. I can't say I am happy with this decision going down in a day. Since NSO had not requested help (which we probably couldn't give anyway)we had time to talk about this and for that I am disappointed in Omni and congress. The much better response would have been to go along with NSO's wish of not intervening and discussed the communication issue with them later, hopefully still as friends at that point. That would have been my advice to Omni and gov had I been here or had we taken time to discuss this. Unfortunately I never had a chance to voice my opinion.

Emperor Marx says you're full of !@#$ and will probably be expelled for this.

These may be capable gov dudes, with the exception of Boyle, but they sure are some ugly bunch of weenises. Congrats guys. Glad to see you're having fun.

Confirming the confirmation.

[size="5"][color="#FF0000"]I NOT AGREE WITH THIS GOV.[/color][/size]

[quote name='Chris Kaos' timestamp='1280545525' post='2395630'] You misunderstand. My feelings aren't hurt. I'm just disappointed that the one fact you chose of a possible many was the one that is not only pretty categorically wrong, but also the one which makes me look the worst. [/quote] He's just upset that GATO has lost 10% of it's NS in the last few days. Not all to GARO but he needs a scapegoat.

[quote name='Jens of the desert' timestamp='1280273819' post='2391762'] And why would you want to do that? [/quote] Just to be nice guys. That's about the only reason to do something like this.

Well like I said in the bloc thread making de facto reality was what that was about. Plus it opens up for signatories that aren't de facto'd in as it were. translate that to something readable and right and that's my opinion.