Rush Sykes
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Posts posted by Rush Sykes
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TPF said very early that they were going down with NPO. There was a period where it seemed (at least to those within the two alliances) that NPO was not going to get terms, and therefore TPF would not see peace. It is slightly different because they could have bailed on NPO at any time, but it isn't as different as you make out.
Well, they hadn't done anything like this 'sooner'
. During Karma, maybe. But once they had got peace with Karma, it should have been over.The justification has been given that TPF, in her desire to be the last man on the battlefield, could not achieve peace until Pacifica achieved peace. TPF have further stated, that this operation was launched because they thought they were in an eternal war, because "Athens, et. al. were saying NPO would never be given peace." Its quoted multiple times in mulptiple threads.
This operation ended on August 2nd. Pacifica received terms July 16. It should have been on July 16th, when TPFs entire reason for thinking the war would never end had dissolved, then so to should have this operation. It didnt. It didnt end till those in ZH decided it was over. The fact that TPF allowed this to continue for nearly three weeks after they KNEW they would soon get peace, leads Athens to believe that TPF intended to carry this operation out to it end. It is sad that so many of you cant see this, so many of you who say "They thought they were in an eternal war." Truly amazing.
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Man, this world will be an awesome place though if intent to war becomes a CB. You can attack ANYONE who doesn't like you or plans anything.
You already can do it. IRON did it, and got roundly hailed for their honest of their CB.
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Well, there is no doubt to give, really – hostile acts did end.
Obviously I think that deliberately sabotaging an alliance's membership is a hostile act, and a stonewall CB for war. So is organising an update blitz, and it's on the same level of blatancy. But they were already at war – acts of war are to be expected, although I personally wouldn't have approved that one.
I'm planning to nuke you. If you attack me, though, it's you that will get rolled for being a rogue. This justification didn't work for GGA in the Viridicide and it won't work for you.
We were livid that our pre-arranged war with BLEU was tangled up with the disgraceful war on Hyperion, indeed. However, you undermine your own point by pointing out that the war is considered as two sides, and that our 'side' included the other war. Polar did exactly what TPF have done here in that war, by launching a full blitz on Valhalla (who were on another front).
It is also different because Hyperion and Polaris were not MADP partners.
I am not saying that there were no separate fronts in Karma (obviously there were), but that an alliance expanding the war to other alliances on the other side should not then be used for a new war once the main coalition war is over.
As an ordinary member, you declare on who you're ordered to declare on. As I said, alliances were assigned to fronts in order to satisfy treaty lawyers and to maximise efficiency. Someone had to be assigned to IRON and unfortunately it was us.
If this war was meant to be all-inclusive on 2 sides, then when, when the IRON front ended, and you, being in Karma at the time, did you not go hit someone else then? I know the answer to this, and you know the answer to this. Further, actions like MHA prohibiting bandwaggoning on NPO, is further evidence that it was not a free-flowing battlefield. If it were as you want to paint it out to be, Karma sides, after accepting surrender, would have been immediately redeployed. And, under you explanation, it would have not only been ok, it would have been expected. This is quite silly.
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The only reason anything was ever thought of was strictly because Athens et all told NPO they would never get peace.
Im only halfway into this thread, and its probably already been pointed out....but this is complete, and I mean COMPLETE BS.
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In all seriousness NEW, congratulations, and see you in a few hours. You folks be careful out there.
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Summary of arguments put forth:
- So what if the CB is 6 months old? So what if TPF committed act of war during war? So what if TPF declared white peace against ALL alliances when war stopped? So what if there is no evidence of act of war during and after the terms? We can do what we want! because yes we can!
- TPF had "intentions" !! what we say is true, because we are moral and TPF is evil, there is no need to provide CB reflecting anything post terms.
- TPF was is and will remain ebil. TPF used to this years ago, so we can do eet too.
- Can your allies do something about it? Yes, exactly thats what we're waiting on actually
.A clearly unbiased assessment, thank you.
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Did anyone actually read the OP, the part where they said they were simply coming up with ideas if put in an eternal war? None of this was ever actually put into motion, it was a plan for if all of TPF was ZI'ed, how they could keep fighting. ZH actually FORMING was the result of an internal split within TPF... not mhawk sending them off.
You can't tell me that when the chips are down, your alliance has never come up with hypotheticals as to ideas on how to fight if certain things would happen.
Never put into motion? Seriously? Even TPFs most ardent supporters have not tried that nonsense. You simply cannot read those logs and say this plan was not put into motion. It was not seen through to fruition, but clearly, and ridiculously clearly, it was put into motion.
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Why didnt you say that when they surrendered to all Karma?
Because nobody in history has ever just for the hell of it, up and said, "We are not war with..." then begin listing every alliance we are not at war with. Your notion that we should have said something back then, is quite frankly, moronic.
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Then why aren't you still at war with the nations that you once fought?
That would be because we agreed and signed peace with them.
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I know it's been brought up like a million times, but why are six month old logs valid CBs?
If the police find out that you committed an attempted murder 6 months ago, do they go "Oh well, it was 6 months ago?" TPF committed an act of aggression against us. We did nothing to them.
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So TPF's claims are based on nearly full proof evidence showing how the war was fabricated, and your key point is the term "sitrep."
Alright, thanks for playing. Door's on the left.
Beautiful way to ignore everything in the post. Keep it up.
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Where to start.
1) this was not TPF brainstorming "What if" scenarios. TPF and Athens were not in a state of war. This was an action that was put into motion against Athens, along with advice on what to do once they got close.
2) The logs bear out the fact that TPFs grand announcement that they would allow TPF members to leave TPF peacefully, having fulfilled their duties to fight, was a thread started with the INTENT to further this plan.
3) Zero Hour has maintained to us since they 1st came clean, that they passed on no information. Anyone carefully reading everything associated would already be aware of this.
You see Cyberverse, has all of this stopped at what-if brainstorming, you might all have an argument. This plan however, was set into motion. You cannot read those logs which have not been impugned in any way, and say "wow, mhawk is innocent." RoK and Athens were SPECIFICALLY targeted because of their histories of mergers. It was calculated.
[4:08:31 AM] DrunkMonkey: [02:36] <Desperado`> hey mhawk
[02:36] <Desperado`> you are about to get some extended mail
[02:36] <Desperado`> lol
[02:48] <~mhawk> ?
[02:48] <~mhawk> what
[02:49] <Desperado`> the athens "factbook" for dm and yohan
[02:49] <Desperado`> its $%&@in massive
[02:49] <Desperado`> lots a good !@#$ though
Ask yourselves about the above conversation. Why would DM and Yohan need an Athens fact book if this plan were just "brainstorming what if scenarios." There was only one reason to complete this fact book, not to help DM and Yohan get a protectorate with an alliance that they despised, it was to further this plan.
[23:47] <shadow|TPF> mhawk, what timeline do you want me and scotty to be on for leaving?
[23:51] <Desperado`> Ill be honest, the next peggy irc convo is not going to go well
[23:51] <Desperado`> lol
01[23:51] <DrunkMonkey> no talking we're being interviewed
[23:51] <YohanElus> XD
[23:51] <Desperado`> who would wanna interview?
[23:52] <YohanElus> Athens gov interviewing us
[23:52] <Desperado`> nice
[23:52] <Desperado`> you two are fast workers
[23:59] <~mhawk> logs
[23:59] <~mhawk> tongue.gif
Find me one possible context that this conversation could happen in, that excludes proving that this "mission" went beyond a brainstorming session. I am a patient man, I will wait.
4:38:29 AM] DrunkMonkey: 01[03:51] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> i still believe the best chance for revenge is to catch them off guard and go for the kill
[03:53] <mhawk> lol
[03:53] <mhawk> they are little !@#$%* kids
[03:53] <mhawk> in for a blanket party
01[03:53] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> indeed
[03:53] <mhawk> however you guys feel you can hurt them the worst
[03:53] <mhawk> do it
[03:53] <mhawk> one idea
[03:53] <mhawk> was after you get some press
[03:53] <mhawk> make some pr things
[03:54] <mhawk> about no zi
[03:54] <mhawk> real idiotic pr things
[03:54] <mhawk> that pander to them
[03:54] <mhawk> then start recruiting maybe
[03:54] <mhawk> from them
01[03:54] <DrunkMonkey[ZH]> yeah
[03:54] <mhawk> they will then have to destroy you
[03:54] <mhawk> or back off
[03:54] <mhawk> one idea
[03:54] <mhawk> is merge into sparta
[03:54] <mhawk> and hurt those $%&@es
Seriously folks...is that a WHAT IF scenario? That is actionable advice given to ZH, on what they should focus on while on their Athens mission.
[4:25:14 AM] DrunkMonkey: [04:06] <~mhawk> sitrep
[04:06] <Yohan|Away> it was pretty funny
Mhawks use of the word SITREP here, to me, is huge. There are only certain instance in which you would ask for a sitrep. Im sure we all know what those instances are.
Some of the planet will accept TPFs response, and Athens and her allies will shoulder that fallout. We, however, are completely confident that our actions are justified. We did not undertake this operation against them. The fact that we found out late, to us, and our security, holds little relevance. Crimes do not have statutes of limitation. Attempted murder is still attempted murder, a pass is not give because it failed.
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There was never a declaration of war from either side so the MDAP was never activated. Also, having fought TPF during the war I can say I never saw a TPF/Athens war.
No no, good sir, we will go with TPFs assertion that we were at war. We never gave them terms, or accepted a surrender, hence this CB is irrelevant, we have always been at war.
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This thread is moving fast, so didn't see this. Ok, that makes more sense. I still find their behavior a bit questionable, but if you're ok with it then that's cool.
In fairness to Zero Hour, they offered up their alliance for whatever punishment we deemed fit. I believe they even told us they would not defend if we chose punishment. I do believe that says alot about them and how far they have come, in a relationship with us.
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I find it to be truly astounding that people can read those logs, and defend mhawk's complicity in this matter. He played a hand in this operation at every step. Even went so far as to issue instruction on how they should proceed. When asking about the operation, he asks for a sitrep. That one word says a mouthful.
All of you who want to tie this, by extension to the Karma war, and say "ZOMG, he took actions against a wartime enemy"....Learn the facts. Athens and TPF had NO front during the Karma war. They were not at war with us. This operation is completely independent of ANY of TPFs actions against alliances that they were at war with. This was an outright attack on Athens. Uprovoked. Keep this in mind as you make your judgements. If a prisoner attacks another prisoner, he does not get a pass because he has already been punished for a past crime. He gets an additional punishment, because the law never becomes invalid. Thank you, and Godspeed to Athen, Rok, GOD, \m/ and all of our wonderful friends and allies.
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That just means that [00:26] <mhawk> as an enemy you have not shown one ounce of dignity or decency
Wow, Doitzel should be paid for our PR.
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My deepest thanks are to conveyed to Hoo and Rok for this joint operation. I now owe Hoo 2 debts of gratitude. Someday, he can collect.
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I recall reading here that Ivan stated he had spoken with those involved in the CSN threat issue within the NSO. He has asked CSN to contact him about sorting the issue out. He also stated that the threat should not have happened and would not have happened had he been available at the time.
Thank you for pointing that out. My old eyes missed that in this cluster**** of alpha-wolf howling. My apologies to those involved.
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No one has contacted Ivan from CSN about it, he has openly said he would like to sort it out.
If you really cared.
Im not sure what would need discussed in order for Ivan to "sort it out." Corinan wrote that check on his allies bank accounts, it is there for the world to see. Ivan now has the choice to either ignore it, or deal with it. Either Corinan is allowed that kind of idiocy, and has the authority to make good on that threat, or some one of those mighty sith should put him in him place, and tell him he doesnt have carte blanche to threaten alliances over his own inability to properly ban on IRC. To say that Ivan would like to sort it out but nobody from CSN has contacted him, is akin to a doctor standing in a room watching a man die from a heart attack, then saying "he didnt tell me he was having a heart attack."
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Congrats Umbrellailures!
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NPO actively obstructed any sort of move against NpO for a long time (over a week for sure), and eventually gave in under great pressure from most of Continuum. Anyone who tries to blame that one on the NPO is misinformed or twisting the truth.
I think that, by and large, most of the world understands this. Personally, In my case, I view Pacificas guilt in what happened to Polar, in the context of their continued professed love and brotherhood all the way through the leadup to the war. Even on the cancellation of the OoO, they continued to use terms like brothers and sisters. I do not know about the rest of the planet, but I wouldnt stand by and let my brother get his $@! beat and not knock a few heads of those beating him. So many Pacificans equated the situation to "sometimes brothers fight, and one has to beat the other one up." That would be fine had Pacifica dealt out the beating. Anyone who would stand idly by and watch even their best friend beat up their brother or sister, is not deserving of the title of brother or sister. Maybe those of us in CnG are just different. No amount of pressure from any of our allies would cause us to abandon one another.
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Shush. You're just happy I called out Dilber.
Rush, note where I said, "Up until that point in time, I felt that I had done a fairly good job.." ?
Reading is life!
My guess would be writing is life. I read it...let me quote it.
Now, sticking with NPO after all that, I'd say that was a bigger mistake than the original one - turning our backs on Polaris. Up until that point in time, I felt that I had done a fairly good job as a FA person for Echelon.
That reads to me that you felt up until sticking with NPO, you had done a good job in FA. Perhaps you maybe wrote it incorrectly, or I could perhaps be understanding it incorrectly. It seemed as if with that 1st sentence you were making the subject of that paragraph the fact that you stuck with NPO. I suppose you meant the 2nd sentence as a continuation on everything after the - in the 1st sentence. This is not a grammar class, so I wont go into the structure of a paragraph, especially since I rarely follow those myself. But, your reply, such an endearing way of being condescending. At least it reminds me of why I, along with so many others, have such..wonderful...memories of you.
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Past is past. The end.
If past were indeed past, there would be no need for prisons. No, you are judged by your past. No amount of simplification in the world will change that.
As to Tela's post, saying that you felt you had done a good job at FA, along with admitting that you failed to even attempt to sort through that mess....shows a remarkably low standard you set for yourself. Not that this surprises me, low standards seemed to be commonplace within Echelon back then, may even still be with them today. At least you called it what it was by referring to it as turning your back on Polaris, while the rest of Ecehlonians continue to deny that that is what transpired, so a half-hearted +1 for that I guess.
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I sincerely hope I come across the way I intend to come across in this thread.
First, let me say, you guys are an impressive lot, and I admire the way you play this game. I was rather harsh verbally towards your alliance in that drama. To be honest, my problem was with agreeing to terms, and then breaking them. I will not apologize for my words concerning that, because, in as much as you play this game for the war, I play this game for the politics and the relations. Your word is your biggest weapon in this game, much more powerful than even Polaris' nuclear arsenal. Your alliance may well be an alliance whos word means something, although to me, it does not appear this way.
I speak from a purely Athens perspective, which, in this case, is a unique perspective. You see, my alliance, through EVERY fault of our own making, was recently dragged through the mud by much of this planet based on a war(I wont argue tech raid vs war, because it really is pointless). The reason we were dragged through the mud was not out of one iota of concern for our target, but by 1) ire against us and 2) "violating an accepted CN standard". It is with reason number 2, that I reacted in the way I did to your breech of the agreement to keep the raid 1v1. It is because you have come here with grace, presenting your case, that the very same people who were so disgusted by Athens violation of the accepted CN standard, will almost unanimously roundly hail you for your forthrightness. If an Athens gov member made an agreement, then didnt tell the rest of Athens in a timely manner, and someone in Athens broke that agreement, we would once again be faced with hordes of criticism of the "epic failure and lack of functionality of our government." It would be unacceptable for us to say for instance, that "Londo got busy with real life, and was unable to communicate this agreement to the rest of us in a timely manner.(even if it were 100% the truth)" It is my guess, that this form of double standard that exists on CN, is probably the reason that you guys play as you do, and for that I solute you.
Truly, I bear no ill will whatsoever to NEW, your reputation as fierce fighters and warriors within the machinations of Cybernations, is well known, and I would be honored to fight alongside you. Even more than that, I appreciate more than any words can ever express, your probably completely accidental exposing of the BS of the CN community and the "accepted standards" that certain alliances are held to. Keep doin' it right NEW.
. During Karma, maybe. But once they had got peace with Karma, it should have been over.
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Smashed Indeed
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
M*A*S*H may well be completely innocent of leaking the info that tipped off TPF. But a couple of things need to be gotten straight here, #1 is that they would not have to leak the info directly to TPF to be the source of the leak. #2 a presence in the enemy coalition channel, following the presence in our milcom channel, at the very least, is a poor display of judgment that allows a reasonable circumstantial case to be made. When it comes to the cancellation of the treaty, circumstance is more than enough to dictate the action. Capital Crimes...murder, treason, etc, have all been prosecuted and convicted on circumstantial evidence at various times. M*A*S*H maintain their innocence, so be it. Some will believe, some will not. We cannot say for sure that they did, or that they didnt. They, also, cannot say FOR SURE, that they didnt. Because, and I know this may come as a shock to many of you, but sometimes, people lie...and sometimes, people make honest mistakes, either scenario could lead to the leaking of that information. However, in war time, you surround yourself with those you know to trust. Seeing an MDP partner in an enemy coalition planning channel, drives a dagger into that trust.