General Ozujsko

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297649708' post='2631917'] With all the class I'd expect from a DT member. Please, go beg another alliance to try to get you peace while simultaneously acting smug in negotiations, then act confused when it doesn't all work out in your favor. [/quote] Please point out in those logs where I was acting smug. And I take etiquette courses from Liz. Such a model MOFA in CN.

[quote name='dejarue' timestamp='1297649541' post='2631909'] I don't know why you think DT is the only alliance CSN is fighting, but I guess all I can say is... you're not. [/quote] I don't. But our wars with Legacy have certainly decreased and CSN isn't really putting that big of a hurt on us. I think you're mirin' our style, bro.

[quote name='Gibsonator21' timestamp='1297649415' post='2631899'] I wasn't making excuses for us. I was merely pointing out DT's continuous attempts to spin everything in their light. [/quote] Well, duh. It's pretty easy when you have a knuckle-dragging mouth-breather like Penkala doing the heavy lifting for you.

[quote name='dejarue' timestamp='1297648788' post='2631857'] This isn't really true, but you would have to read something other than DT's propaganda to know it. With DT's "negotiating" skills, it started to become true, though. There are so many awful twists and turns in this little novel that it's easy to get lost in it. Even if I didn't know what was going on, this would read like a bad propaganda piece. You're not going to turn the CSN membership against its leadership, even if we did feel aggrieved. But you know that, and this little stunt, as you probably know, will only serve to strengthen CSN support of its government in putting your feet to the fire. We don't care about the tech. The membership, nor the government. But your stunt of "well we removed the counter-offer" is a naked way of covering for reneging on what would have brought you immediate peace, and you only did it for publicity reasons. And for that, your alliance will continue to burn. We've got time. [/quote] Really? I've checked CSN's stats - you're dropping NS and members pretty steadily. And from what I've seen, your WC's are weak-sauce. Face it, CSN isn't able to back up their threats. I've said it before - we need not conquer CSN. But we must resist being conquered. And we are.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1297647759' post='2631801'] Wow usually I'm not one to complain about this, but man, learn what a [i]summar[/i]y is for. Secondly, reading that left me with only one impression, DT are incompetent at several things. Reading comprehension, FA, and Negotiation. One thing you've got lots of is arrogance. Asking for an apology after you guys came in on the optional? What did you think you are entitled to free beats and walking away as you please? I'm with Liz. I see you took her advice too. [/quote] Taking FA advice from Liz is like taking rehab advice from Courtney Love.

1) We made CSN a counter-offer. They walked away from talks and gave no indication that they would be considering it. This is fully documented in the logs. DT naturally assumed they were turning it down and removed the counter-offer from the table. Largely because of Point #2. 2) CSN's chances of receiving 40k diminish day by day. Everyday, DT's resolve grows stronger and our allies, friends, non-allies, etc continue to support us in our resistance to these terms, which are as unjust as they are unjustifiable. CSN's general membership are realizing that these terms are antithetical to their values as an alliance and they deserve praise for that. Listen, it's a really basic thought. CSN won't be getting that tech. It's just not going to happen. Simultaneously, they will never offer white peace no matter how many CSN govt get ZI'd or how much NS they lose to a smaller alliance. CSN govt has demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that they have no problem throwing their general membership in the fire. Their egos will simply not allow them to realize their failure. DT offered white peace because we are the only ones that can bring it up. CSN govt has refused this option...stupidly so, I might add. As such, CSN continues to represent an existential threat to DT. I've said it before - CSN's general membership knows how to make this stop. Depose of this trash you call government and seize leadership. Your government has failed you.

I was going to reply to Penkala's temper-tantrum but I see that his responses have been trashed once again. I have no particular affinity for preying on the mentally-weak. LOGIC and FACTS? Penkala, you're the Glenn Beck of CN. Congratulations.

Just saw this now. No, you can't, you !@#$@#$ idiot. We took it off the table. It's gone. Tough !@#$. CSN - Whatever you're paying this clown, you're not getting your money's worth.

Nah, more like CSN govt couldn't seize an opportunity when they saw it. So the offer is off the table now. Better luck next time. Also, Liz: lrn2MOFA.

Listen, it's a really basic thought. CSN won't be getting that tech. It's just not going to happen. Simultaneously, they will never offer white peace no matter how many CSN govt get ZI'd or how much NS they lose to a smaller alliance. CSN govt has demonstrated, beyond any doubt, that they have no problem throwing their general membership in the fire. Their egos will simply not allow them to realize their failure. DT offered white peace because we are the only ones that can bring it up. CSN govt has refused this option...stupidly so, I might add. As such, CSN continues to represent an existential threat to DT. I've said it before - CSN's general membership knows how to make this stop. Depose of this trash you call government and seize leadership. Your government has failed you.

Penkala, you're the worst. Seriously, every time you type, you get destroyed. Your arguments hold no water. You know, DT actually considered not bringing this up on the OWF because it would be counter-intuitive to make CSN look any worse, if possible. Thanks for the assist, Penkala. DT not being truthful? You snipped all the logs. MyWorld posted the full logs. BUSTED. Professionalism? We approached the talks in a mature manner. I asked Liz no less than 3 times to be mature during talks...she continued to act like Courtney Love. BUSTED. (ps: Liz, lrn2MOFA.) DT asked CSN to surrender? We proposed white peace and an optional apology as an opportunity for CSN to save face. BUSTED. Let 2 truths be known: 1) We made CSN a counter-offer. They walked away from talks and gave no indication that they would be considering it. This is fully documented in the logs. DT naturally assumed they were turning it down and removed the counter-offer from the table. Largely because of Point #2. 2) CSN's chances of receiving 40k diminish day by day. Everyday, DT's resolve grows stronger and our allies, friends, non-allies, etc continue to support us in our resistance to these terms, which are as unjust as they are unjustifiable. CSN's general membership are realizing that these terms are antithetical to their values as an alliance and they deserve praise for that. Anything else, Penkala? No? Well, when you're ready to put your big boy pants on, let us know. Until then, it goes on.

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1297477637' post='2629901'] Just a random thought here and I'm adding it to the discussion. Does CSN not remember when they themselves had to pay reps to IRON and the rest of one vision during the one vision war? Do you realize that the amount of tech you guys paid then is around a fourth of the tech you are now demanding? [/quote] Shh, you know CSN govt isn't good with numbers...stop making their brain cell(s) hurt.

[quote name='Liz Girard' timestamp='1297466789' post='2629749'] But anyway. I look forward to your tech. [/quote] Come and take it.

[quote name='Minutiae' timestamp='1297384882' post='2628532'] That would be what happens when you keep nations out of peace mode [/quote] Rather, it may be what happens when you have 10k infra and 1k tech like many CSN nations. Our nukes go boom. CSN's are more "pop, pop, fizz." Or when you blow your offensive by declaring war 4 days before you're able to declare offensive wars again, sure. Regardless, don't blame DT for CSN's lack of effective stagger.

[quote name='Thrash' timestamp='1297381586' post='2628458'] Disgusting reps are disgusting. I think they've handled themselves fairly well out here, considering the demands they are under, and I thank them for bringing this to light for the rest of us. What happened to you CSN? [/quote] I've seen the most recent logs. DT continues to offer alternatives and negotiate. CSN won't budge from demanding the tech be from nations over 2k tech. Anyone else on the CSN govt list that needs to be ZI'd?? PS: DT has lost around 650,000 nation-strength. CSN has lost 1,478,000.

CSN knows how to end this conflict. If they had half a braincell between them, they'd remove these ridiculous and absurd terms. But until then, Ozujskan soldiers will recite this before lights out, every night: [quote] "This is my tech. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My tech is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My tech, without me, is useless. Without my tech, I am useless. I must fire my tech true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I will... My tech and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit... ... Before Admin, I swear this creed. My tech and myself are the defenders of my country. We are the masters of our enemy. We are the saviors of my life. So be it, until victory is Aiuristan's and there is no enemy, but peace!" [/quote]

Just gonna leave this here: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nXP6p.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/5nPBG.png[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nXP6p.jpg[/IMG]

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297355841' post='2628027'] I don't care if you had entered on a forever MDAP. It doesn't matter what you did, it matters how CSN feels about it. And CSN doesn't like how you entered this war. (P.S. CSN had a treaty chain ready, is my understanding. Not sure what happened to it though...) [/quote] CSN's feelings mean nothing to me. They can choke on tear-stained tissues for all I care. Their hypocrisy and absurdity is overwhelming. [quote] Thanks for this. Illustrates my point perfectly. Enjoy your 40k terms. Hopefully, as other alliances close out their fronts, they'll join in on the DT beat-down. You deserve it. And I don't think CSN really cares about being ZIed. They'll rebuild after the war. They've never cared much for their nations. [/quote] Oh, I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings, too? Why? Am I not properly groveling for CSN approval? Am I not obeying their absurd demands? They could have approached this like gentlemen, but instead they chose impossible, prolonged economic warfare...and for that, they shall burn. Penkala, you should join CSN. Your small mind would fit right in there. You're so oblivious to the most basic notions of survival and self-preservation that you would assume a small alliance to just give their tech away without any resistance. Speaking of which - got any lunch money?

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297354477' post='2628013'] Maybe I haven't been clear. Literally none of you have done anything to refute my main points that A) You entered this war in a way that pissed off CSN, and B) Rather than handling this carefully, you're pissing off CSN *yet again* with the way you're handling peace talks. And that's not going to do anything to help your cause. And no, they're not going to work with you unless you stop annoying them. Seriously, have I not been extremely clear on this point? Let me state it again: Show some humility, THEN talk to CSN. And don't tell me "We talked to CSN though!" That's not my point. Please read again: [b]Show some humility, THEN talk to CSN.[/b] The right attitude goes a [u]long way[/u]. A cop isn't going to give you a warning for going 20 mph over if you say "Ok well I'll just take my warn now, officer. If not, then I'll call all my friends and have them bug you. Then I'll threaten to beat you up. And the entire time I'll be smug and never admit any wrongdoing." If you refuse to show CSN any respect, then they won't show you any respect. I have no problem with DT and would love to see those reps knocked down just a bit. And I'm sure CSN would consider doing that for you too. You probably could have gotten 5, 10, 15k knocked off those terms. Your best bet is to salvage what you can and approach CSN without an attitude, admit your wrongdoing, and ask CSN if you can sort something out that's a bit easier for you to pay off. Ask them if you can lower the tech amount required for the nations to pay the reps and knock 5k off the total or something. Maybe they'll do it. Get Athens to mediate or something. The first and most important step is to realize that you will not be getting white peace in this war based upon the way you entered and the way you've handled the peace term process (i.e. attempting to drag CSN through the mud). The second step is to shut your members up on the OWF and IRC. The third step is to approach someone respected by both sides to mediate. I guarantee you that if you follow my advice, you will be much more likely to have a better outcome to the negotiations than if you continue your current course of action. I know CSN, and I know their gov. I've known them for more than a year, and I'm still quite close to CSN. I *know* that they're reasonable people. Just see their other peace agreements / offers for proof of that. Show them some respect and I promise you they will be much more likely to work with you. Please don't bother responding to any more of my posts until you've considered the attitude you've had in this entire process. I don't care if you approached CSN. Approach CSN the right way, like adults. Seriously, this isn't very difficult. I'm pretty disappointed that I have to spell it all out for you. Take my advice or leave it. But if you choose to ignore me, you are in no position to complain in any way whatsoever that reps are still expected of you. It's on you, then. [/quote] Hi, We entered this war on an ODP, not much differently than any other alliance. CSN entered based on no treaty whatsoever. As Goose has said, peace talks were not concluding at the time of our entrance. We went to talk to CSN. Our allies went to talk to CSN. Our non-allies tapped on their shoulder. Hell, even Legacy said the reps were ridiculous and they were ready for white peace. All of this was met with a temper-tantrum by CSN that the terms were "firm." That's the chronology of events, whether they agree with your pre-determined opinion or not. So yeah, our attitude changed. DT is dealing with a bunch of mouth-breathers in CSN who can't agree among themselves of how exactly things went down. They tell us to "check the logz!!!" and we do, to see it refutes their point. Drag their name through the mud? Ha. Please. They already did that to themselves. I've said it before and I'll say it again - CSN's "peace terms" are a set-up and amount to nothing more than prolonged economic warfare and theft. How many members of CSN govt will be ZI'd before they realize the foolishness of their ways? We do not have to defeat CSN. We must resist being conquered. EDIT: I want to address your thought on humility. We could have approached peace-talks with humility when we were all fighting under a shared "just business, no hard feelings" attitude. But when the first set of terms are the equivalent to a first-grader saying he wants a bazillion dollars and that those terms are "firm"...you have every right to get angry and resist such absurdity. That's basically what this all comes down to...CSN had a chance for this war to end with humility and they chose absurd terms instead. So I'll turn this around - CSN can approach us when they reach the apex of embarrassment, learn their lesson in humility, and remove these absurd "terms." Until then - DEATH TO THE CSNIONIST REGIME.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297314050' post='2627696'] Have you tried to REDUCE reps, or eliminate them? Again.. I don't know what's going on, here [/quote] We know. All of us have refuted your points at least 10 times already. Save yourself the embarrassment, please.

[quote name='Penkala' timestamp='1297286151' post='2627217'] Also not sure why 40k is being thrown out as the final bill. Have you even tried negotiating? Or are you just stomping your feet demanding that YOU be allowed to WRITE YOUR OWN surrender terms? [/quote] 40k from 2k+ nations (about 25 DT members are eligible) is what was initially offered and, according to CSN govt, those terms are "firm." Hence, they have discouraged negotiating from the very beginning. And I'm not too sure of the success of negotiating with an alliance when the govt can't agree as to whether peace talks were over or not. There is such a thing called coordination and unity of message...and it does not exist in the halls of CSN's government. Stomping our feet? Really? You think DT decided on switching to Taliban-style avatars and sigs are for no reason whatsoever? CSN better hope their warchests last long enough to support their threats.

[quote name='Kryievla' timestamp='1297259713' post='2626918'] Seriously ridiculous. You guys at CSN should be embarrassed over even asking this, if you really believe either of those reasons you are claiming justify that in any way. [b]Why not just come out and say 'because we outnumber them and we want their tech'?[/b] [/quote] I'm pretty sure this has something to do with it: [img] http://i.imgur.com/B9NJX.png[/img] EDIT: Mag destroys again. Someone get some Bacitracin, lots of sick burns in this thread.

[quote name='Supa_Troop3r' timestamp='1297261320' post='2626935'] It's an ODP? LoSS asked for help. Sparta did not. Case closed. Quote us saying we were committed to help LoSS via ODP. I'm sure we've stated in our DoW that it was like a card game and by luck of the draw we went in to help LoSS out. [/quote] He's nitpicking at a word I said because he doesn't understand vocabulary.

[quote name='kriekfreak' timestamp='1297249909' post='2626874'] Thing is, they should not say that an ODP committed to help LoSS. [/quote] I believe you are confusing the definitions of "commitment" and "mandatory obligation." Anyway, I'm not going to waste my time with someone who thinks DT should have come to Sparta's aid after their unjustified, untreatied attack on our MDOAP partner.