Finnish Commie

Au contraire, my point was not that only numbers matter and if it appeared so I apologize. I do believe that there are most likely dozens of other variables too (like on this "Terra" democracies having a better resistance to war weariness) but that in the context of Cybernations we simply do not have enough quantitative data of any of these other variables to draw any conclusion out of them. It is well possible that democracies in CN can fight harder than authoritarian alliances but we do not have enough proof to say either way. Neither do we have enough information to make any assumptions of the morale of one side or another of this little conflict, especially as we have dozens of different groups involved each with their unique culture. Thus my only point is that only thing we truly know is the hard numbers we can see, the amount of NS and nations and all of that. And thus finally in the only way we can measure our side does have an advantage. That does not mean that there is no possibility that your side can't have advantage in some other variables that form to compose the result of this war but we honestly can't tell, unless you can enlighten me of some proof of such a variable? Our side pointing out that we are winning the war in numbers is just our side underlining the one thing we all know.

Gathering sufficient amount of data about morale issues is something I honestly don't believe anyone in CN has done. At best it's gut feelings or trying to apply (often poor) historical experiences to the current situation which can well be misleading. I strongly feel that the raw numbers are the only thing that we can use with any degree of certainty to try to judge this situation, everything else is just guestimation. There is also the tendency in the arguments about Cybernations warfare to emphasize the "failures" of both sides by posting those utterly idiotic screenshots of inadequate warchests, usage of too many bombers and what-not. Those do not really give any indication of anything but the poor sense of understanding of the poster who tries to make generalizations from the actions of a few in war with thousands and thousands of individuals. During times of conflict people, or at least some of them, start seeing everything through black-and-white lenses, either you are with us or you are a monstrous baby killing abomination. From my experience both sides have their less and more reputable combatants, the only thing I am honestly concerned with is the end game :P

I really hate to get into this with you because I really love you and ODN but do you seriously propose that when we base our calculus of this war in raw numbers, the only thing that can be measured, we are spewing propaganda but when you talk about our "poor morale" and "herding unprepared masses" you are being the one considering this situation from some sort of a more neutral position? Our side obviously likes to point out the clear advantage we have, but you would best remember that it's an actual advantage, while talking about "poor morale" is really just based in your preconception that you are basing on close to nothing considering how large and varying our coalition is. In the end talk is talk and we'll walk the walk ;)

Hi ^_^ (No wavy emoticon).

I am yet to see enough information draw any conclusion that would contradict my assumption that the CN players on either side are more or less similar in general. It is sadly enough hugely widespread custom to draw conclusions from the too few a cases we happen to run into. I am willing to assume that you do not have anywhere near enough information to draw any conclusions on the matter one way or another.

That is an interesting assumption that is far from proven right quite yet. I do predict that our numbers are made out of fairly similar kind of stock but as I said I can well understand why you'd reason in that way.

Trying to argue that one side or another will break down due to poor morale is just silly guys. All the "general members" are generally the same in every alliance. Some love their pixels, some fight wars for fun. It is highly unlikely that one side in a conflict of this magnitude will have significantly better odds at the "morale" front. I do understand why the side at huge disadvantage would love to spin that story but regretfully enough for you guys this is a game of numbers and we got more numbers than you do.

Thanks once again.

I actually think it's quite a lot simpler. If you get into it you either stand with us or you stand with them, it has been that way for quite a long time now. Earlier we had to awkwardly use chaining to make the same kind of coalition wide moving of NS happen. These coalition DoWs just cut out the "middle man". In the end the results are the same, those who the strong side wants to hit get hit and those on the weaker side must endure what may come. In any case, as Schatt said it earlier, I don't see that the technicality of how the wars are declared is any matter for "right" or "wrong", it's rather amoral. The reasons behind the wars are what is interesting and I can fully condone of the actions our side is taking even as self-proclaimed moralist.

The standards have changed and your are not a wee bit higher than ours. Nothing is constant. Ach frigging double post, my apologies.

I don't think that has been a very difficult question to answer in the wars we've had in last few years though. The sides have been generally very apparent even before the wars started.

Civilizations evolve. Personally I have considered the need to have to declare wars through a chain via a chain via a chain etc. to be rather archaic in the kind of wars we fight in Cybernations, where there generally are two clear-cut sides opposing each other. What's the sense for one or the other to limit itself when it is clear who the real enemies are? Especially as you can practically chain anything anywhere in this ridicilous enviroment of treaties we habitate in.

GATO may attempt to hold on to the traditions of old but coalition warfare, even if it is badly limping, does change the rules a bit. You may attempt to fight it but technically it does not matter. The loosing side is in no position to enforce it's views on this matter. Though I would not dismiss your request for the civility of a DoW but the fact is that technically we don't need to.

Darn it, I was up to 16 and then war expired :(

I was feeling unimaginative, thus... [img]http://i47.tinypic.com/wbc8p5.gif[/img]

[img]http://i46.tinypic.com/24fk8qv.gif[/img] 'tis my only contribution so far.

Thanks again.

[quote name='King Xander the Only' timestamp='1356660189' post='3068668'] I don't care if I win or not, all that matters to me is defending allies and burying !@#$ like you in the backyard. [/quote] Oh Xondor, you so silly.

[quote name='King Xander the Only' timestamp='1356634674' post='3068524'] Holy !@#$ people still make rickroll jokes. [/quote] There is nothing of humorous nature here, only love.

[center][img]http://i.imgur.com/VDuQM.gif[/img][/center] Some friends are loud, party-going and joke-ready. They call you every other day to find out if you want to go out or if there is something else going on. Other friends are quieter and seldom come around. Still, when you really need them they don't hesitate for a split second and do all they can to help you: Echelon is one of those friends. Reflecting our deep respect for their actions in standing by R&R through thick and thin, we have asked them for an upgrade on our treaty, and they have kindly consented*. The result is as follows.... [quote][size=5][b]The Astley Accords[/b][/size] [b]Article I: Preamble[/b] We're no strangers to love You know the rules and so do I A full commitment's what I'm thinking of You wouldn't get this from any other guy I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling Gotta make you understand Never gonna give you up Never gonna let you down Never gonna run around and desert you Never gonna make you cry Never gonna say goodbye Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you We've known each other for so long Your heart's been aching but You're too shy to say it Inside we both know what's been going on We know the game and we're gonna play it And if you ask me how I'm feeling Don't tell me you're too blind to see Never gonna give you up Never gonna let you down Never gonna run around and desert you Never gonna make you cry Never gonna say goodbye Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you [b]Article II: We're No Strangers to Love[/b] (Peace and Respect) The first and last thing to be safeguarded by both Alliances and their members is the Respect for opinions, thoughts and ideas, whether in public and in private. The Second is Peace. Neither Alliance will initiate hostile or potentially aggressive actions against each other. In the event minor issues arise, and because both Alliances are examples of respectful people, they will be solved rationally and with the purpose of preserving the best relationship possible. [b]Article III: Inside We Both Know What's Been Going On[/b] (Intelligence) Should either Alliance come across vital information for the other Alliance's security, then said Alliance is required to share it with diligence. [b]Article IV:[/b] [b]We Know the Game and We're Gonna Play It [/b](Aid & Defense) Should either signatory come under attack by a third party, it is the responsibility of the other signatory to assist in every possibly way. Should either signatory initiate a conflict with a third party, the other signatory may give assistance in any way deemed necessary. [b]Article V: Your Heart's Been Aching, But You're Too Shy to Say It[/b] (Cancellation) Should either Alliance desire to Cancel the Treaty, said Alliance is required to present a notification. The Treaty will be valid in the following 48 hours after which it will be considered Null and Void. [u][b]Signed for Echelon:[/b][/u] [b]Wasso[/b] [b]Neo Anglia[/b] [b]King Daddy[/b] [u][b]Signed for R&R:[/b][/u] [i][b]EgoFreaky[/b] - President [b]Bambi[/b] - Vice President [b]Finnish Commie[/b] - Minister of Foreign Affairs[/i] [i][b]Garion - [/b]Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs[/i] [i][b]MutedFaith - [/b]Deputy minister of Foreign Affairs [b]SnowyR[/b][b]ose[/b]- Minister of Interior [b]jraison[/b] - Minister of Economics [b]The Membership of R&R[/b][/i] [/quote] [right]*under the promise that the beer was on us.[/right]

Grats farkies.

Thanks again.

Jolly good birthday.

[quote name='D34th' timestamp='1348760241' post='3034801'] I know ICP was part of The League to, but unless I'm very confused I'm sure SWF was part of The League too, and wiki agrees with me: http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/League_of_Extraordinary_Alliances#IX.3_Signatories_that_left_before_the_dissolution_of_the_League [/quote] SWF was founded in a merge between ICP and ICSNv2 so I guess its possible technically that SWF inherited the membership. I must admit that I don't remember too well what happened six years ago but one thing that is sure is that SWF never fought for League at least.

[center][img]http://i46.tinypic.com/3005h61.gif[/img][/center] [quote]An Agreement of Friendship, Cooperation, and Mutual Assistance between R&R and Socialist Workers Front (henceforth SWF). 1. Friendship The alliances of R&R and SWF agree to work to maintain amiable relations between the signatories. 2. Cooperation The alliances of R&R and SWF agree to, on case-by-case-bases, cooperate in a wide range of matters pertaining to shared interests. 3. Mutual Assistance Should the need for assistance in times of crisis, be it military or economic, arise, the signatories have the option to assist each other in a manner agreeable to by both parties. 4. Cancellation Should the need for the cancellation of this treaty arise the cancelling party will inform the other party 48 hours before the cancellation takes effect. [u]Signed for R&R[/u] EgoFreaky - President Bambi - Vice President Finnish Commie - Minister of Foreign Affairs Archers92 - Minister of Defense SnowyRose - Minister of Interior jraison - Minister of Economics The Membership of R&R [u]Signed for SWF[/u] The General Congress[/quote]