BarbulaM1
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Posts posted by BarbulaM1
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hmm... I thought INC was the first alliance?
A common thought for some odd reason, but it is entirely wrong. CATO was the first alliance, Cross Atlantic Treaty Orgnaization, I do believe. Which we later changed to Global Allinace and Treaty Organization. Nevertheless, under INC being first, we would of course still be the oldest alliance in the Cyberverse.
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A much more recent varient of that charter is located here:
http://host.simvision.net/GATO/Charter%20o...rganization.htm
It has been debated and proposed. I personally like it and pushed for it on many occasions. I still look forward to our future, mind you GATO is everlasting
. We are the first and thus shall be the last alliance to stand on the Cyberverse. -
Now that I have free time, I really should get back into CN. I've missed you guys.
B
Oh you know I've missed you bunches! But that really isn't the topic at hand is it? We are all discussing the intricacies of rewriting history. I guess anyone in power can write that they really didn’t lose a war and that it was a strategic “surrender” to further their current existence, actually I proclaim that GWII has not yet ended by the end of this century GATO will prevail and win GWII! GATO-1V was just a minor battle.
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Well written, but nothing can be written well enough to rewrite the memories of only a few years past. Since it is only CN history, not so much distance history in the OOC where memories are stored. I've noticed that Vlad likes to re-write things from history to the relabeling of RL political theories to take credit for.
Anyone who gives into such blatant propaganda I feel mildly sorry for, but it happens in a sheltered life, and it is their loss not my own.
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If I were to treat this topic with the unbridled scorn and contempt that I fell it deserves Im sure Id be on a 48 hour holiday right about now.
Luckily Im taking this topic at face value. Specifically Im annoyed that the rank and file from GATO is openly posting that it intends to defend the brown sphere against tech raiders (when it has the power) and thus in doing so bringing GATO into conflict with Valhalla and others who see GATO as nothing more than another notch on the hitlist preventing it reaching the happy hunting ground. Im more annoyed that through either design or default no one from GATO that should be posting in this thread; telling you to shut up or agreeing with you are actually doing so.
Bringing me back to my original comparison of the inmates running the prison/those that are clearly out of their depth posting.
If you ever get into government I will rejoice
Your arrogance besets me at every possible turn of your rhetoric. Being a member of an alliance does not restrict a persons' posting abilities in the Open World Forum, this is a place for unofficial data dump of ideas. Anyone believeing Raga or any other post in here is official is quite mistaken and should still require the label of "newbie" or rather n00b for someone your age. Also could you imagine the lack of tact and mess it would be if an alliance asked it's members to shut up on the open world forum?
Think before you post, it will do well for you in the future.
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Love this illistrated history of our great cyberverse! <3 satire, especially when it is mainly true XD.
Request... that time when Ivan came back, oh and maybe Chris_Kaos?
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But the past is quite far behind us, it is time to look forward for GATO, I hope in the future that we can strive to do a better job and put egos behind us. We are constantly searching an putting forth the effort to change and have the the right opportunity to rewrite the future of GATO in all forms, very very few ever get that chance. Even in the end re-writing some wrongs we did in our own sphere in the future, a model for the sphere perhaps?
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Being as I was on the other side during those events, I'm already well informed as to what went on, at least as well as you are
I'd point out that your heavy handiness in those events lead to a definite split in Brown, and not all of those who pulled out of UPS at that time left the sphere.
And your actions in those events cost you many friends, and even those you had left fled when things went bad for you
Still I'll leave it at that
The otherside (as you call them) where the weak ones with the loud voice, the split was certainly not equal and was not in the hostile "otherside"'s favor. Yet ar was threatend when GATO said we where leaving the pact and would not follow through on a decision that greatly infrienged on our soverignty without our blessing. We where not hostile first mind you, we just disagreed. And there is no way that you are more informed on the situation as me, given it was I that instigated the debate against the resolution and headed GATO's policy regarding it.
But we've swayed off topic
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Which war would that be,
It's been years since GATO could've claim to "own" Brown.
NTO, BQP, M*A*S*H, AiD, OTF, LEN, Browncoats, etc would all have disputed such a claim had you made it 12 months ago,
Even just prior to the recent war, you would not have willingly taken on the Nexus alliances over control of Brown (Even tho 2 of them had by that point moved off the sphere)
And today you are in dreamland if you think the others would acknowledge your overlord ship without a fight,
The very fact that you post such a discussion on here without talking to them first, demonstrates that despite all that has occurred within the last 12 Months, it's still the same old GATO
Despite your obvious prejudice and lack of knowledge on the issue, I will point out a major part of that sentence you quoted was the word "mutual". The ones that didn't quite agree tended to move on. War was threatend on more than one occasion during the little hiatus involving unnamed alliances, they just agreed to leave the sphere. I did manage foreign affairs at the time, I can give you a run down of events, but we've all chosen to keep those out of public sight.
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It sounds like you're on a pretty solid path if your reports are accurate. All that remains is to be able to demonstrate the virtue that these things must necessarily develop. I will agree with you that my suggestions were somewhat obvious, but will also state that few alliances have the will and self-discipline to execute them appropriately.
I will disagree with you heartily on this point.
National development, particularly the selling of technology, is (and should be) a transitional state. There is no inherent value in retaining a body of nations to produce and export primary resources (technology).
In the 1970's the Economic Commission on Latin America (a UN entity) proposed, tested, and proved a theory (the Prebisch-ECLA Thesis) that stated "...since the 1880's the world economy had been working systematically working to the disadvantage of countries that relied upon the export of primary products... [such that] developing countries found themselves in a steady deteriorating position vis-a-vis the industrial countries." It is later explained that this is because the value of primary goods (in our case, technology) increases in value at a slower rate than manufactured goods (national development/industrialization).
The technology and industrialization gap has been widening steadily for some time now both in RL and in CN. Endeavoring to keep a class of underdeveloped nations within an alliance for the purposes of achieving economic independence from other alliances is little more than domestic colonialism and marrying oneself to mediocrity. The goal should be to transform ones alliance into an importer of primary goods, and a producer of manufactured/secondary goods. Else you run the risk of becoming a Banana Republic (but without the cool clothes).
A manufacturing of primary goods for export makes only makes a banana republic. Also pure free market in terms of CN, is blatent imperialism and a bit unrealistic given that there isn't a secondary good to produce. I personally adhear to economic realism when it comes to CN, a self sustaining growth garners the most power in the end. No reliance on external sources of tech, a steady need for numbers, and thoes number need be engaged in deals with their fellow members. It creates comradire, it promotes growth NS/Tech/Nationwise, and promotes indepdence. If an alliance can establish, within it self, a successful means of producing tech for the same price as an external source, by all means, it is much more important and benficial to keep the money within the alliance to grow.
To gain tech, you need to gain members and educate them, there is a drive to recruit, and they will also eventually start buying tech, it is a cycle that gets bigger and bigger.
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I'm not the kind of guy to poo-poo on ideas without providing some of my own, so I'll humbly make a few suggestions.
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Purge your inactives and those that aren't willing to support the acts/actions of competent leadership. The great old alliances carry loads of inactive players. Everyone that deals with them understands that some percentage of your membership will be unwilling/incapable of contributing when it counts, i.e. in a war. Shave away the soft outer layers and show the iron core of your alliance.
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Recognize the logical fallacy of the Offensive/Defensive classifications of warfare. This concept was always a farce, and adherence to a strict defensive military policy only serves to let others perceive you as weak willed free-riders, and lulls your members into an apathetic bunker mentality.
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Instill a sense of military virtue. Except in the case of OBR, virtually all alliances earn prestige based upon their willingness to engage in war on behalf of their allies, and the competence with which they do so. You guys are a democracy, and part of the price of being a citizen and enjoying the rights that GATO preserves for its citizens is an obligation to military service. Take pride in it, promote it, just do it.
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Move away from mob rule. Restrict the executive and legislative powers of your General Assembly. Recognize that your leaders are elected because their judgment is valued by your members, and then trust their judgment. In democratic alliances, there is a tendency to lead via public opinion poll. That path only leads to dishonor and disaster. Trust your leaders, support them, and follow them.
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Be selective in your admittance practices. Once you have a solid sense of self-value, don't degrade it by accepting every Tom, Dick, and Harry that applies. Doing so will only dilute the gains that you have achieved. There should be an interview process for each applicant, and their admittance should be dependent upon the good judgment of the leaders that you have elected.
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Establish Development Standards An alliance full of perpetual tech sellers is just as important and influential as an alliance of perpetual inactive hippies. In order to advance as an alliance, you must mandate the advancement of the individual citizen. Personal excellence is prerequisite to communal excellence.
If you accomplish these things, you will have a much surer footing from which to launch your new foreign policy agenda.
- I believe the most effective way to purge an alliance of inactives is to have a major drawn out war and be placed on a sphere that almost no one joins. Though the best war, I hope next time is slightly more offenseive, I'll get to that later. Thoes combined cut down on the ghosts pretty nicely. So I'd have to say: Check to that.
- Whilest AC (though the term was tarnished by an alternate act) GATO was changing the definition of Defensive. Our definition, to my knowledege, became more along the lines of "Any immenent threat on GATO's interests is an act of war on GATO and thus should be delt with as a defensive move". I believe only a few alliances heard this side, mainly within the brown sphere. That definition I believe serves an alliance well, purely defensive is absolutly out-dated and unrealistic. I hope we stay with the def.
- I agree fully.
- Not too much polling goes on within the alliance, though we are always up for a good debate regarding alliance policy. The decisions of GATO's leaders are carried out with, of course, proper coordination. We just need the decisions. I agree with you on this point. Just not that you assume GATO is mob ruled, it can seem as though it is, but we generally know who is incharge.
- Not really along the lines of the rest of the discussion, but GATO historically has been an alliance with a very wide range of nation sizes, I do not believe this will be a problem. It is a bit of an obvious point, an alliance needs to find a self-sustaining balance of nations so it may surivive and thrive without outside intervention in it's economy.
As for weakness, we where not internally weak, and seldom have been during my tenure in GATO. The assumtion of such is merely outside alliance rehtoric of past grudges and the lack of external activity of GATO's members. We keep to ourselfs and have for well over a year. We've reached sanction twice, very few alliances can say that, and I have no doubt that we will be resanctioned once again in the future. The percerverence of our membership's core does not allow us to be weak, if indeed we where weak as you say we most likely where and are, than we certainly would not be holding on to the membership numbers we have after a very long harsh war. Our image as weak is only do to the lack of assertiveness on a grand scale, but there was nothing to be assertive about at the time. (To gain insight on various events of which where not posted on OWF, learn the Gonzo incident, UPS' package not sent, and possibly GATO's entry into UJW.)
Otherwise I enjoyed your commentary and suggestions, despite their obviousness.
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Purge your inactives and those that aren't willing to support the acts/actions of competent leadership. The great old alliances carry loads of inactive players. Everyone that deals with them understands that some percentage of your membership will be unwilling/incapable of contributing when it counts, i.e. in a war. Shave away the soft outer layers and show the iron core of your alliance.
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A year ago? The ODN did not have anything like full control over Orange; I think there are some other Orange alliances which are around your [ODN's; I know you are not ODN any more] size or larger. GATO has more mandate over Brown than the ODN has had over Orange for a very, very long time. I think their problems would be mostly external (i.e. outside Brown), whereas I imagine the other Orange alliances laughed you out of court.
I wouldn't argue that, GATO is still seen as the predominant brown alliance, there are others, but no matter what, GATO is still what is Brown to the majority of the foreign affairs world, even though we are currently withdrawn from the world. I don't believe ODN has held that position in a long time, TOP and IRON has been around on orange ect... Maybe ODN's dominance on orange was before my time.
Bob, I was referring to: "yes I know it won't happen, just saying" with the first statement, not GATO.
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NPO 'own' Red through military power, and a history of being able to defend that claim. GATO and Legion once 'owned' their colours just as strongly, but their ability to enforce it lapsed. If the NPO were to lose 90% of its strength (yes I know it won't happen, just saying), do you really think that nobody would move into Red? (After all, red is a nice colour.)
Always so certain of hegemonic peace theory
, this is in part a political simulator, nothing is forever. You're inability to look at the future without being blinded by the present makes it rather difficult to take what you say seriously sometimes. GATO owned brown prior to the war through mutual agreement, brown alliances knew very well GATO's position, we simply did not have a policy regarding attacks on unaligned nations. There is nothing that would stop us from, in the future, having just the same authority over our sphere, hopefully more resembling that of our more distant past with a bit more of an authoritative stance.
One advantage is that brown is not a popular color, the majority of the nations are on brown to be aligned, there simply are not many ghosts or unaligned nations on the sphere. (The advantage is a mixed blessing of course)
Just a little something from the past, the wording in treaties was vastly different than they are now, they directly acknowledged the spheres.
The New Pacific Order acknowledges the preeminence of the Global Alliance and Treaty Organization in the Brown Quadrant trading commonwealth and will refrain from attacking members of said trading commonwealth whether said members be signatories of the Global Alliance and Treaty Organization or not. Likewise, the Global Alliance and Treaty Organization acknowledges the preeminence of the New Pacific Order in the Red Quadrant trading commonwealth and will refrain from attacking members of said trading commonwealth whether said members be signatories of the New Pacific Order or not. -
What would have happened had GATO turned down the Tech Farm offer?
I would only guess we would have tried to arrange internal tech deals at a lower benefit.
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I'd like to add, in support of the 3rd point, that the other alliances that exist on brown are extremely friendly, and none of them techraid. As for GATO's dominance of brown, though we don't hold current dominance, we are by far the largest alliance on the sphere. Prior to the war infact GATO held more member nations that the size of brown, we where over 75% of the sphere. Currently we stand between 25-35%. It is entirely possible to work together with our brown friends to establish a mutual coilation to controll all of the sphere's activities.
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Very cool, some more incentive to be sanctioned.
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i do see your point Esau, but i must state that the only real way to beat the forum war, is to continue posting well-thought out and intelligent posts. Unfortunately, there will always be people in this game that will take a potshot simply due to AA, ODN seems to be getting a fair share lately. If you continue to make GATO well known for people who post intelligently, then sooner or later there will be those who will rally around you instead of mock you. Giving up the forum war only allowed the GATO mocking to continue for a bit. Yes it seems to have stopped but once ya'll go public once more, i would not hesitate to think that the mocking will begin anew. While i hope it does not, be prepared.
I don't believe that GATO ever flooded the forums with posts filled with dumbness, the majorty of posts made by GATOans tend to be fairly intelligent, especially compared to some unnamed alliances. Posting intelligently has nothing to do with how an alliance is treated, an alliance's treatment is a matter of arrogance by consensus. People do not make their own opinions on alliances, they take their opinion's from others, a negative feeling towards something not fully understood is much more compelling to the majority of people.
To disprove your point, GOONS seldom posted anything of intelligence, yet garnered support from the masses because it was easy for the mases to give their support, it was, at the time, the norm of the cyberverse.
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Indeed, from what it seems, this thread could be seen an unauthorized and certianly unexpected re-entry of GATOans to the OWF. Though to be honest I believe our big return will come in the near future, as for the articles Raga posted about, just keep an eye out
. I do hope for an official announcement here soon though, some of our old traditional stuff though, but it is a major milestone.
In general, we be back!... ish!
In the mean time though come check us out, http://www.gato-forums.com is our URL and quite a bit of GATO spam is in the chaterbox. It is great fun, trust me.
ness all over the place, litterally. -
I always preferred this one over the other one although it never catch on,...nice to see it again.
I'd agree with you. Though I never wore the tag, I remember attempting to replicate the same simplicity in one for GATO at one time.
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I seriously contemplated posting a suggestion to bring them back in the Box, a while ago, but decided the sheer workload involved for the staff with the size of sanctioned alliances these days - and the fluidity with which they change - would be a nightmare.
Sanctioned alliances are vastly smaller than they used to be. Mind you GATO, GPA, NPO, IRON ect... all used to be over 1000.
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We submitted a mask when Admin asked for em:
I don't think anyone out of GATO has ever seen it
. I really liked the whole concept, it gave more reason for sanction. -
ah yes gonzo cars.
was he the FAN guy whose account was hacked and he nuked a guy?
or am I confusing him with Goncalves? XD
Gonz was the one who distributed the CN source code, iirc
Nahe he was the GATO member that was very GOONesque (and our Minister of Defense), he was normal for a bit, then went crazy and started to bring our entire government to the high court for treason. GOONS had helped him write the entire case, to my knowledge, in order to garner another ally and the only way GOONS would sign an MDP is if the various members of the government where gone, likewise they believed a new government in power would be the only way a MDP would be signed by GATO.. GATO at the time was sanctioned of course, so one more ally for the UJW would have been nice for em.
The case went into mistrial, Gonzo left the alliance, recruited inside GATO first, formed his own alliance (OFS - Order of Feudalistic Security IIRC). Based around him being King and creating an ideology around a fake god "Chytog", his power was derived from Chytog in the ideology, as with the rest of the Monarchy. (Needless to say it was the first theocratic monarchy in CN). OFS became a protectorate of GOONS, Gonzo did stuffs and stuffs went down. UJW happened OFS was crushed and King Gonzo left.
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Over the past days that I've been around, it hasn't be 1000 of course, the most colorful person I believe I've met is Gonzoczar. Jesus that guy went nuts, but he made playing interesting.
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most of those who had any respect for GATO/Legion lost it after they failed their allies pretty damn horribly in GW2/3.
edit: and democracys fail because democracy is almost always a popularity contest, not a meritocracy.
Arn't many of your allies democratic alliances? I love calling allies failures because their ideology doesn't match my own, I mean they are only allies to further my own purpose anyway right?
ness all over the place, litterally.
A Few Thoughts On GATO's Future
in Open World Forum
Posted
Well it is a thread on our public goals, a charter might very well fall under that, though I doubt Raga would be all too pleased if we where to continue going off topic
. Nevertheless I will do just ever so slightly to make a quick point in support for that particular charter (as modified by GATO): Given the origins of the charter (as USBR has stated) are rooted in the US Constitution, it is only a given that it is a bit verbose. However when going through it, each sentence has a clear meaning, very little is left to question and very clear lines of power between the branches of government exist. Try saying everything that edit does while retaining the structures it lays out. Mind you the founding fathers never scoffed off at the constitution for being too long, (tl;dr wasn't around apparently) 
. Being clear is more important than trying to cut down on words for the sake of the original being too long.
Alrighty, back to the conversation of our future, it is, of course, looking mighty bright looking at our numbers!