Choice of Wonders

[javaswiller]

I am coming up on a new wonder cycle. Here are my choices:

[quote]Fallout Shelter System - $40,000,000 -
Allows 50% of your defending soldiers to survive a nuclear strike,
Reduces tank, cruise missile, and aircraft, losses from a nuclear strike by -25%,
Reduces nuclear vulnerable navy losses by 12%,
Reduces nuclear anarchy effects by 1 day.

Movie Industry - $26,000,000 -
Increases population happiness +3.

Mining Industry Consortium - $25,000,000 -
Increases population income by $2.00 for the resources Coal, Lead, Oil, Uranium that your nation has access to.

Federal Aid Commission - $25,000,000 -
Raises the cap on foreign money aid +50% provided that the foreign aid recipient also has a Federal Aid Commission wonder.
Allows two nations with the Federal Aid Commission wonder to send secret foreign aid.
Secret foreign aid costs the sender 200% the value of the items that are sent.

Moon Base - $50,000,000 + (3,000 * (Nation Strength - (Technology Purchased * 2))) -
Reduces infrastructure cost and bills -4%.
Provides +5 happiness that degrades over the life of the wonder.
Expires at 600 days.

Mars Base - $100,000,000 + (6,000 * (Nation Strength - (Technology Purchased * 2))) -
Reduces infrastructure cost and bills -3%.
Provides a gradually increasing happiness bonus that peaks at +6 happiness at the end of the life of the wonder.
Expires at 1,200 days.

[/quote]---

That said, I will buy the FAC only AFTER the Scientific Development Center, so don't even suggest it. When collecting taxes, I normally resource swap, giving me lead and uranium. So if you peek at my nation, keep that in mind. If I were to consider space, I would go to the moon before Mars. But because of my trade set, I don't see much of a payoff doing that either.

So, please tell me, what would you buy and why.

Edited November 4, 2010 by javaswiller

[javaswiller]

Maybe my math is too fuzzy, but here is what I think about the Moon with my resource set.

One happiness point is worth about $1.20 / day / person. So 1 point would provide me with $1M every 10 days. The wonder would cost me about $200 million. Because it expires in 600 days and happiness degrades to nothing during that time, I can assume I will lose 1 happiness point every 100 days. So the first 100 days I would make about $50 million, and over the course of 600 days would make only $150 million. Of course I would also be saving on infrastructure cost, but it seems to me, I would barely be able to recover my costs.

[Vespassianus]

Movie industry or if you have a big warchest try the space wonders.

[Ironfist]

Use a process of elimination.

----

[b]Fallout Shelter System:[/b] probably not worth it really.

[b]Movie Industry:[/b] If you're low on money, maybe.

[b]Mining Industry Consortium:[/b] Unless you've got no other choices don't worry about it because looking at your trade set you won't get anything from it, except $2.00 for Uranium.

[b]Federal Aid Commission:[/b] Are you likely to use it?

[b]Moon/Mars Base:[/b] You're way too small for these, IMO. You can try but you won't see much of an improvement in your economy.

----

My opinion? Either the FAC or the Movie Industry. If you're unlikely to use the FAC, go with a small happiness boost and get your people some quality viewing.

[quigon jinn]

why do you swap for uranium/lead?

that makes... no sense - unless you somehow trade out marble for lead, to get scholars?

[Viluin]

The Mining Industry Consortium, because if you get into a war and lose all your land before you get it, it will cost an ungodly amount of money to buy back up to 3000.

The power of the space wonders lies in the colonies, imo. But I'd recommend buying those right after a war when they're cheap, unless you have about 2 billion dollars already.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Viluin

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Viluin' timestamp='1288919895' post='2502449']
[b]The Mining Industry Consortium, because if you get into a war and lose all your land before you get it, it will cost an ungodly amount of money to buy back up to 3000.
[/b]
The power of the space wonders lies in the colonies, imo. But I'd recommend buying those right after a war when they're cheap, unless you have about 2 billion dollars already.
[/quote]

What difference will the MIC make to that scenario?

[javaswiller]

One asked, why the resource swap. ... The swap wasn't originally for me; it was for a bigger buddy. But I discovered I get Scholars, Beer and Fast Food during the swap. So the MIC would be worth an extra $4 / day ... if I collect during this particular resource swap.

I have been leaning toward FAS, or maybe Movie Industry. My warchest would be sufficient, but not ideal, to expand to the Moon.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='javaswiller' timestamp='1288942257' post='2502792']
One asked, why the resource swap. ... The swap wasn't originally for me; it was for a bigger buddy. But I discovered I get Scholars, Beer and Fast Food during the swap. So the MIC would be worth an extra $4 / day ... if I collect during this particular resource swap.

I have been leaning toward FAS, or maybe Movie Industry. My warchest would be sufficient, but not ideal, to expand to the Moon.
[/quote]

Definitely don't sacrifice your warchest for an early journey to the moon, that's not a good plan. The Movie Industry looks good, or the FAC. $4 is nothing tbh, especially seeing how the Movie Industry nets you roughly $6 per person.

[quigon jinn]

[quote name='javaswiller' timestamp='1288942257' post='2502792']
One asked, why the resource swap. ... The swap wasn't originally for me; it was for a bigger buddy. But I discovered I get Scholars, Beer and Fast Food during the swap. So the MIC would be worth an extra $4 / day ... if I collect during this particular resource swap.

I have been leaning toward FAS, or maybe Movie Industry. My warchest would be sufficient, but not ideal, to expand to the Moon.
[/quote]

What resources do you swap specifically?

[Viluin]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1288920434' post='2502459']
What difference will the MIC make to that scenario?
[/quote]

The MIC requires 3000 land purchased. 3000 land costs like $120 million. You will regret not buying the MIC when you get into a war and lose all your land. I've been in that situation, and let me tell you, it sucks. Your nation doesn't need anything close to 3k land, so you'd be buying it just for that wonder.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Viluin

[thaone]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1288951748' post='2502814']
Definitely don't sacrifice your warchest for an early journey to the moon, that's not a good plan.
[/quote]

I would like to echo this advice, after a war I decided to go for the space wonders while being low in NS instead of rebuying as much infra as possible. This was a mistake, you can better have a lot of infra and wait a while before buying the space wonders. as buying them quickly while staying low on infra.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Viluin' timestamp='1288971049' post='2502954']
The MIC requires 3000 land purchased. 3000 land costs like $120 million. You will regret not buying the MIC when you get into a war and lose all your land. I've been in that situation, and let me tell you, it sucks. Your nation doesn't need anything close to 3k land, so you'd be buying it just for that wonder.
[/quote]

Yes, but it's only valuable if one has the resources needed to activate about 3/4 of the affected resources. And to buy land, one needs suitable resources (generally the ones found in the classic 3BR tradeset) which doesn't include them. So it's a bit of an awkward situation. MIC needs to be bought eventually, for sure, but if there's the likes of the Movie Industry which already offers the +3 happiness, it's probably a better choice for the moment.

[Viluin]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1289005941' post='2503345']
Yes, but it's only valuable if one has the resources needed to activate about 3/4 of the affected resources. And to buy land, one needs suitable resources (generally the ones found in the classic 3BR tradeset) which doesn't include them. So it's a bit of an awkward situation. MIC needs to be bought eventually, for sure, but if there's the likes of the Movie Industry which already offers the +3 happiness, it's probably a better choice for the moment.
[/quote]

The movie industry is better.. until a war drives the price of your MIC up to $140 million. It's not like getting the MIC first and movie industry second would have a huge impact on your economy, it's only 1 month. Spending $120 million on land is quite a lot of money.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Viluin' timestamp='1289027581' post='2503789']
The movie industry is better.. until a war drives the price of your MIC up to $140 million. It's not like getting the MIC first and movie industry second would have a huge impact on your economy, it's only 1 month. Spending $120 million on land is quite a lot of money.
[/quote]

Getting an added money hit through the Movie Industry [i]now[/i] will help to pay for that land in the [i]future[/i]. This sort of logic always ends up being in a circle.

[Viluin]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1289027865' post='2503793']
Getting an added money hit through the Movie Industry [i]now[/i] will help to pay for that land in the [i]future[/i]. This sort of logic always ends up being in a circle.
[/quote]

The added money is minimal, especially the difference between the MIC (with 2 resources) and MI for one month. I doubt it's more than $3 million.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Viluin

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Viluin' timestamp='1289027920' post='2503794']
The added money is minimal, especially the difference between the MIC (with 2 resources) and MI for one month. I doubt it's more than $3 million.
[/quote]

The way it is at the moment: if the OP switches for Lead and Uranium at collection (not sure why but that's his business), then at most he'll net $4 per citizen. If he buys the Movie Industry, he'll net $6 per person.

The fact is, even if war were to strike between now and his next wonder purchase, by the time he'd run out of "other wonders" to purchase (ie the FAC etc), he could easily have afforded to get back up to 3000 land, especially with the trade set he's got atm.

It's really a matter of either or.

EDIT: Assuming a warchest is present...

Edited November 6, 2010 by Ironfist

[Viluin]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1289028188' post='2503797']
The way it is at the moment: if the OP switches for Lead and Uranium at collection (not sure why but that's his business), then at most he'll net $4 per citizen. If he buys the Movie Industry, he'll net $6 per person.

The fact is, even if war were to strike between now and his next wonder purchase, by the time he'd run out of "other wonders" to purchase (ie the FAC etc), he could easily have afforded to get back up to 3000 land, especially with the trade set he's got atm.

It's really a matter of either or.

EDIT: Assuming a warchest is present...
[/quote]

That extra $2 gross per person will take a long long long LONG time to amount to $120 million in taxes collected.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Viluin

[Ironfist]

[quote name='Viluin' timestamp='1289053649' post='2503949']
That extra $2 gross per person will take a long long long LONG time to amount to $120 million in taxes collected.
[/quote]

Yes, it will. But you're assuming war will destroy all land and while it's a possibility, it's no way to plan one's economy for the present. Besides, the MIC can be postponed until a date he [i]does [/i]have 3k land again, due to the other wonders out there.

It really depends on whether or not he plans for the present or for the future. I agree there should be some future planning though

[javaswiller]

This debate is more interesting than I thought it would become. I was pretty sure you guys would be in the FAS or Movie camp, which is where I was all along. My trade set is rather rich, but I don't think I have enough people to really make going to the Moon worth the investment at this time, as one other person noted here. Perhaps I will be strong enough later.

It's funny that we talk about what might happen in the event of war and no one says boo about the Fallout Shelter. Now, I have read some negatives about that wonder, how an attacker can use it against you. Does anyone have any experience with that? Or is that just talk?

In case you are still wondering about the resource swap, well, let's just say I didn't start doing it to help myself. I started doing it to help a friend. In the process I discovered that lead gives my payday economy a rather significant boost. I have found an even better combo for resource swapping, but I don't have the people to do it. Fortunately, my oldest trade partner, who has been with me for three years, let's me do this swap whenever I need to.

I have another day or two before I am forced to decide. Anyone want to second guess the value of FAS?

[knighta]

For my preference on picking wonders I use wonder calculator at Cyber Nations Utilities.

[javaswiller]

Using the calculator at http://c2t.org/cncalc.php ... Hollywood would give me an extra $249,000 / day right now; the MIC would provide about $85,000. In other words, Movies provide me with an extra $5 million / month. That doesn't even seem to be a fair comparison.

[Ironfist]

[quote name='javaswiller' timestamp='1289152116' post='2505101']
This debate is more interesting than I thought it would become. I was pretty sure you guys would be in the FAS or Movie camp, which is where I was all along. My trade set is rather rich, but I don't think I have enough people to really make going to the Moon worth the investment at this time, as one other person noted here. Perhaps I will be strong enough later.

It's funny that we talk about what might happen in the event of war and no one says boo about the Fallout Shelter. Now, I have read some negatives about that wonder, how an attacker can use it against you. Does anyone have any experience with that? Or is that just talk?

In case you are still wondering about the resource swap, well, let's just say I didn't start doing it to help myself. I started doing it to help a friend. In the process I discovered that lead gives my payday economy a rather significant boost. I have found an even better combo for resource swapping, but I don't have the people to do it. Fortunately, my oldest trade partner, who has been with me for three years, let's me do this swap whenever I need to.

I have another day or two before I am forced to decide. Anyone want to second guess the value of FAS?
[/quote]

By FAS do yu mean the FAC or the Fallout Shelter? I'm a little confused.

But the Fallout Shelter causes a lot of debate. I don't have any experience with one so I'm not about to tell you one way or another, but I'll outline the arguments that I've heard (not my opinion). Basically, the Fallout Shelter gets on a lot of people's bad sides because it doesn't get rid of all of one's soldiers after a nuclear attack and these leaves the nation vulnerable to 2 ground attacks (potentially) after a nuclear strike. In a lot of cases, the 2 ground attacks actually do more harm than the 1 defeat alert should all of one's soldiers be destroyed without the Fallout Shelter. On the other hand, if you happen to be online at the time of being attacked by a nuclear weapon, you can actually rebuild your soldiers and have a force that overwhelmes your opponent, thus allowing you to get the upper hand even after the nuclear strike and negate both the ground assaults, and the defeat alert.

So it depends on how active you are when they nuke you. It's not easy to tell when they will so a lot of people believe it's largely worthless.

In my opinion, I'd stick with either the MIC or the Movie Industry.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Ironfist

[javaswiller]

[quote name='Ironfist' timestamp='1289182861' post='2505585']
By FAS do yu mean the FAC or the Fallout Shelter? I'm a little confused.
[/quote]
Doh! You got it right

[Viluin]

[quote name='javaswiller' timestamp='1289159126' post='2505172']
Using the calculator at http://c2t.org/cncalc.php ... Hollywood would give me an extra $249,000 / day right now; the MIC would provide about $85,000. In other words, Movies provide me with an extra $5 million / month. That doesn't even seem to be a fair comparison.
[/quote]

If you swap your resources like you said, the MIC should give you $170k per day or so, making the difference a little smaller. So the Movie Industry would only give you an extra $2.5 million in the first month. It costs $1 million more than the MIC, so the extra profit would be $1.5 million in that first month. With the MIC you'd be giving up $1.5 million as an insurance to make sure you don't suddenly lose all your land in those 30 days. To me it'd be worth it, but maybe I'm biased because I used to have 10k land, lost it all, and then actually had to pay $120 million for enough land to buy the MIC a month after the war.

Edited November 8, 2010 by Viluin