Peace offer.

[KingChris]

Barbaric peoples require barbaric words.

The true barbarians are those who judge others.

[Sargun II]

The true barbarians are those who judge others.

"I'm sure the Catholic Church would love to know that you are calling them barbarians."

[loannes]

"I'm sure the Catholic Church would love to know that you are calling them barbarians."

"And let's not forget judges."

[king of cochin]

"Which is why both parties should call it off and go back to minding themselves."

"The Dragons can take their demands for compensation and shove them up their @#$%."

Barbaric peoples require barbaric words.

"Let the world not forget that we indeed tried for peace. We were willing to back off, however our good intentions were translated as cowardice by the others. "

[Sargun II]

"Let the world not forget that we indeed tried for peace. We were willing to back off, however our good intentions were translated as cowardice by the others. "

"It is cowardice. Saying that there will be peace only if someone else does your bidding is not only a transparent attempt at control you so lack but is a show of just how weak the Empire has become. They cannot back up their own actions, they attempt to make others do what they wish to do and they cast blame on all but themselves. Cowardice."

[Maelstrom Vortex]

ooc: I'm going to be on the road til Tuesday. My posting will likely be less intense. I wish everyone to know I consider everyone in this RP a friend and hope everyone will treat each other with due respect. I'd like to see this conflict kind of go like the Khmer conflict, which was a very well played war, assuming it continues. Rushing it would not do it proper justice. If you have a disagreement with someone over how something works, talk to them about it even if they're playing the enemy. Propaganda though, is fully allowed.. please feel free to skew reality in your press to as much a degree as you wish. One catch. Elvis is mine!

ic:

"We wish to announce to the world our pilots have been safely retrieved from the Pacific via our merchant networks. Right now as it stands, not a drop of blood need be shed in this conflict. We understand that Tahoe felt threatened, we also know their forces still had time to discuss the matter at hand before they needed to fire to defend any of their sovereign domain because our forces were traveling at cruise.. not military speeds.. and because Tahoe had intercepted them so far out. They regrettably chose not to take the opportunity to discuss the matter any further. Our forces have been advised to keep a greater distance from the lands of Tahoe because they're a little trigger happy. We'll accept a peace with Tahoe if they merely compensate us for the loss of our aircraft which were shot down on their perimeter. We estimate the cost of the aircraft lost at 200,000,000. Ten in total, averaging a 20 million dollar production cost."

"In exchange we'll pledge to keep our forces a minimum of 250 NM from their borders, 50 NM more than their previously maintained airspace, in the future going forward as part of a territorial buffer safety and recognition treaty to formalize our perceptions of respected airspace. This would include both Tahoe directly owned land and any protectorates. Prior to this, the Dragon Empire interpreted airspace over protectorates as free-and-open to commercial and peacefully transiting military aircraft, which while secured by a sovereign were not subject to transportation restrictions. This will formalize into law the perceptions of how these zones work on an international level between our states, on Tahoes terms, preventing any future clashes or confusion."

"Additionally, as part of this agreement we will recognize the American Reich again in Mexico, which is a creation of the state of Tahoe. We will also agree to let Tahoe have full determination of the Texas issue with the understanding the fate of Texas should be determined by a popular vote, not by declaration or force of arms. Basically, as long as we're given assurances that Texas remains a free state, we will remove ourselves from North American affairs unless we see evidence other elected governments might be being bullied.."

"I call this the 'everyone gets what they want' variation of the peace offer. I personally do not believe you could get better terms than this."

-Tidus

Reason for Edit: OOC addendum.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

ooc: I'm going to be on the road til Tuesday. My posting will likely be less intense. I wish everyone to know I consider everyone in this RP a friend and hope everyone will treat each other with due respect. I'd like to see this conflict kind of go like the Khmer conflict, which was a very well played war, assuming it continues. Rushing it would not do it proper justice. If you have a disagreement with someone over how something works, talk to them about it even if they're playing the enemy. Propaganda though, is fully allowed.. please feel free to skew reality in your press to as much a degree as you wish. One catch. Elvis is mine!

ic:

"We wish to announce to the world our pilots have been safely retrieved from the Pacific via our merchant networks. Right now as it stands, not a drop of blood need be shed in this conflict. We understand that Tahoe felt threatened, we also know their forces still had time to discuss the matter at hand before they needed to fire to defend any of their sovereign domain because our forces were traveling at cruise.. not military speeds.. and because Tahoe had intercepted them so far out. They regrettably chose not to take the opportunity to discuss the matter any further. Our forces have been advised to keep a greater distance from the lands of Tahoe because they're a little trigger happy. We'll accept a peace with Tahoe if they merely compensate us for the loss of our aircraft which were shot down on their perimeter. We estimate the cost of the aircraft lost at 200,000,000. Ten in total, averaging a 20 million dollar production cost."

"In exchange we'll pledge to keep our forces a minimum of 250 NM from their borders, 50 NM more than their previously maintained airspace, in the future going forward as part of a territorial buffer safety and recognition treaty to formalize our perceptions of respected airspace. This would include both Tahoe directly owned land and any protectorates. Prior to this, the Dragon Empire interpreted airspace over protectorates as free-and-open to commercial and peacefully transiting military aircraft, which while secured by a sovereign were not subject to transportation restrictions. This will formalize into law the perceptions of how these zones work on an international level between our states, on Tahoes terms, preventing any future clashes or confusion."

"Additionally, as part of this agreement we will recognize the American Reich again in Mexico, which is a creation of the state of Tahoe. We will also agree to let Tahoe have full determination of the Texas issue with the understanding the fate of Texas should be determined by a popular vote, not by declaration or force of arms. Basically, as long as we're given assurances that Texas remains a free state, we will remove ourselves from North American affairs unless we see evidence other elected governments might be being bullied.."

"I call this the 'everyone gets what they want' variation of the peace offer. I personally do not believe you could get better terms than this."

-Tidus

Reason for Edit: OOC addendum.

OOC: The feeling is mutual Mael if this turns hot lets keep it nice oocly.

IC:

Again the dragons act as if they are the ones to hand out the terms. The Dragon Empire has violated Tahoan Sovereignty, declared war and to make peace demanded Tahoe to attack a weaker nation. On the contrary Tahoe has only shot down aircraft in their own space and not taken any other military action except refusing peace terms that would force them to shed more American blood. Tahoe will give you the terms and it is up to them how lenient they are.

- N.A. Peacecraft

[KingChris]

"I'm sure the Catholic Church would love to know that you are calling them barbarians."

"We'd make a statement about that, but then we'd be barbarians."

[king of cochin]

OOC: The feeling is mutual Mael if this turns hot lets keep it nice oocly.

IC:

Again the dragons act as if they are the ones to hand out the terms. The Dragon Empire has violated Tahoan Sovereignty, declared war and to make peace demanded Tahoe to attack a weaker nation. On the contrary Tahoe has only shot down aircraft in their own space and not taken any other military action except refusing peace terms that would force them to shed more American blood. Tahoe will give you the terms and it is up to them how lenient they are.

- N.A. Peacecraft

"Is it so terribly difficult to comprehend the fact that our planes were not over Tahoe controlled airspace? It was over international waters. How can international waters be Tahoe controlled? How can attacking planes be not a military action?

And we do not ask for Tahoe to declare war on the entity calling itself Confederacy of Mexico. We only ask them to agree to a poll regarding the issue rather than let the Reich violate Texas's sovereignty. "

[Amyante]

Again the dragons act as if they are the ones to hand out the terms. The Dragon Empire has violated Tahoan Sovereignty, declared war and to make peace demanded Tahoe to attack a weaker nation. On the contrary Tahoe has only shot down aircraft in their own space and not taken any other military action except refusing peace terms that would force them to shed more American blood. Tahoe will give you the terms and it is up to them how lenient they are.

- N.A. Peacecraft

"The way you state the terms should be given bears a closer resemblance to how one treats a conquered nation rather than a meeting among equals to sort out this conflict before it spirals further out of control. Are the concepts of proposals and negotiation so alien to you that you cannot fathom peace talks not consisting of one nation dictating terms to another?"

[Centurius]

"Is it so terribly difficult to comprehend the fact that our planes were not over Tahoe controlled airspace? It was over international waters. How can international waters be Tahoe controlled? How can attacking planes be not a military action?

And we do not ask for Tahoe to declare war on the entity calling itself Confederacy of Mexico. We only ask them to agree to a poll regarding the issue rather than let the Reich violate Texas's sovereignty. "

"The Dragon Empire is willing to let this whole situation be settled if Tahoe and Pravus Ingruo pledge to uphold the North American claims that it can police itself by removing the belligerents in Mexico that were formerly the CFNA who have made racist and bigoted remarks against Asians around the world regardless of allegiance and support the new young Texas state in its bid to remain an independent force representing the people. We have yet to fire a shot in this war save in the defense of our own air forces.. and we do not have to. Our goal is simply the freedom of that state to handle its own international and sovereign affairs as well as to rebuke the patterns of behavior demonstrated by Mexico that have disgusted much of the world. There should be no place for that kind of evil anywhere." Tidus noted. "We have only tried to support Texas, because few others have shown the will to do so."

"To cut through some of the rational justifying the DE's consideration that they were attacked without provocation. It does not matter what the legal status of the waters or airspace they were in was in so far as it was not controlled by an particular sovereign nation. As there is no established codified international maritime law, and corporate international law doesn't govern nations; international waters are in fact open to assertion of right by force at any point. In other words if Tahoe believed they were threatened they could issue an ultimatum or order to the offending nation, and in so far as they had the means to enforce it that edict would itself be law over that given portion of water. Meaning international waters does not grant you the right to be there, or to exist; it only grants entities the right to enforce whatever they beleive should be the norm. If I believe I should have a right of passage and I enforce that then that right is so. That being said the DE was given a clear warning to turn back by the nation of Tahoe. Despite what the DE has said, that they believed it would "be reasonable" or otherwise not enforce the order they were mistaken and as a result their decisions led to the death of their pilot and the destruction of their plane.

No one should be sympathizing or arguing the semantics of particular treaties, or legal concepts ad infinitum; as this entire matter could have easily been avoided if not for the poor judgement of a few leaders (attempting either to save a few hundred dollars of fuel, or otherwise to make a point)." - Allison Loraine

How quickly you forget and the last quote should clarify they were violating Tahoan airspace.

[Amyante]

How quickly you forget and the last quote should clarify they were violating Tahoan airspace.

"Quite the contrary, it was stated that they were in international airspace. Miss Loraine's message merely states that every nation has a right to act there as opposed to none based on their capability to enforce it. From that point of view, Tahoe had the right to order the Dragons to turn around as much as the Dragons had a right to tell them to mind their own business, but that would still not make the airspace itself subject to Tahoean sovereignty by law or deed."

[Centurius]

"Quite the contrary, it was stated that they were in international airspace. Miss Loraine's message merely states that every nation has a right to act there as opposed to none based on their capability to enforce it. From that point of view, Tahoe had the right to order the Dragons to turn around as much as the Dragons had a right to tell them to mind their own business, but that would still not make the airspace itself subject to Tahoean sovereignty by law or deed."

It was stated that due to the lack of international law it was up to the power of locals to enforce a doctrine. By the doctrine Tahoe could enforce it was their territory.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"I do not recognize Tahoan authority over domains which are not theirs. That would be an aggression against the world at large in terms of a violation of sovereignty. They have no rights to dictate international law. Based on your assertions; Tahoe is sovereign over the entire world's oceans.""

Edited September 26, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Centurius]

"I do not recognize Tahoan authority over domains which are not theirs. That would be an aggression against the world at large in terms of a violation of sovereignty. They have no rights to dictate international law. Based on your assertions; Tahoe is sovereign over the entire world's oceans.""

If Tahoe can enforce that, yes they are.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"I think the Empire and quite a few other Sovereign states will have something to say about that."

[Centurius]

"I think the Empire and quite a few other Sovereign states will have something to say about that."

Then it is up to them to enforce their doctrine.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"And you're going to go along with this assertion even if it technically would violate your own sovereignty?"

[Centurius]

"And you're going to go along with this assertion even if it technically would violate your own sovereignty?"

If they would try it on what we consider our airspace we would of course enforce our own doctrine however they do not.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"That airspace was as much yours as ours.Think on that."

Edited September 26, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Michael McBride]

Those who say that the Dragon Empire planes were over sovereign Tahoe territory are mistaken. The planes were over international waters. However, the planes had made clear their intention to fly armed bombers and fighters over sovereign Tahoe territory, which prompted Tahoe to take action. Because of this intended breach of Tahoe airspace, we stand by our ally and reiterate that we shall agree to no terms that the Dragon Empire has set forth, and will only agree to terms forwarded first by Tahoe, as they acted in defense of their territory.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"They could have negotiated their way out of it. Think about that also. As stated earlier, there was a full 15-30 minutes or more before our aircraft crossed any sovereign boundary. We find it disturbing that Tahoe would prevent the protection of the free-state of Texas from hostile aggressors."

Edited September 26, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Michael McBride]

"They could have negotiated their way out of it. Think about that also. As stated earlier, there was a full 15-30 minutes or more before our aircraft crossed any sovereign boundary. We find it disturbing that Tahoe would prevent the protection of the free-state of Texas from hostile aggressors."

Considering the fact that Tahoe had voiced their support for the Reich and not the Commonwealth, they would not want any support going to the Commonwealth if they could help. Also considering the Dragon Empire's stubbornness in the past, Tahoe probably decided to save their breath knowing that the Dragons would not turn around.

[Maelstrom Vortex]

"Stubbornness? The burden of proof lies with you. Prove that I am stubborn." Tidus noted.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Maelstrom Vortex

[Subtleknifewielder]

Considering the fact that Tahoe had voiced their support for the Reich and not the Commonwealth, they would not want any support going to the Commonwealth if they could help. Also considering the Dragon Empire's stubbornness in the past, Tahoe probably decided to save their breath knowing that the Dragons would not turn around.

"So instead of making the effort to precvent a situation that could have caused livces, they opened fire. That's perfectly logical."