Technology Stats Help

[HHAYD]

[quote name='iKrolm' date='28 May 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1275023058' post='2314307']
(Or just hit LEO with a bunch of hydrogen bombs. )
[/quote]
Do it and you will wonder why I have ICly issued a strongly worded message demanding you to pay the entire cost of the destroyed satellites.

[HHAYD]

How effective would an armor be and what would its possible weaknesses against certain types of AT weapons be if I used this:

(From top to bottom)

Carbon nanotubes
Electric Reactive Armor (carbon nanotubes conducts electricity much better than copper)
Tungsten carbine
Thin layer of carbon nanotubes with coolant pipes
Shock absorbent gel with carbon fiber mesh
Thin layer of carbon nanotubes
Insulator

Edited May 29, 2010 by HHAYD

[king of cochin]

I may be wrong in this, but I think carbon nano tubes have low [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_properties_of_carbon_nanotubes"]radial[/url] strength, which makes it useless to create armor with.

Tungsten carbide ought to be good, but I do not if its density is optimal to create a practical armor with it.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='29 May 2010 - 07:24 AM' timestamp='1275135875' post='2315472']
I may be wrong in this, but I think carbon nano tubes have low [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_properties_of_carbon_nanotubes"]radial[/url] strength, which makes it useless to create armor with.

Tungsten carbide ought to be good, but I do not if its density is optimal to create a practical armor with it.
[/quote]
Would it be possible for me to have the carbon nanotubes face toward the outside of the tank instead of their side facing outside?

[king of cochin]

[quote name='HHAYD' date='29 May 2010 - 06:17 PM' timestamp='1275137225' post='2315484']
Would it be possible for me to have the carbon nanotubes face toward the outside of the tank instead of their side facing outside?
[/quote]

I suppose so, yeah, a layer of carbon nanotube strands laterally strewn ought to distribute any impact force longitudinally. However please do not take my word for it. Lateral strength could perhaps be contributed by an underlying tungsten carbide layer. Again not sure about this.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='HHAYD' date='29 May 2010 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1275134381' post='2315459']
How effective would an armor be and what would its possible weaknesses against certain types of AT weapons be if I used this:

(From top to bottom)

Carbon nanotubes
Electric Reactive Armor (carbon nanotubes conducts electricity much better than copper)
Tungsten carbine
Thin layer of carbon nanotubes with coolant pipes
Shock absorbent gel with carbon fiber mesh
Thin layer of carbon nanotubes
Insulator
[/quote]

Carbon nanotubes would create the greatest amount of dispersal of energy with a kinetic projectile. You'd have the ultimate soft-defense in this regard.

Electric Reactive Armor is very hard to make, and there are better conductors than carbon nanotubes. Electric Reactive Armor essentially vaporizes the projectile. The only problem: you need a conductor viable enough for this and I do have a few ideas about how you could make a super-capacitor in this capacity.

Thin layer of carbon nanotubes with coolant pipes would be useless. In fact, you would actually decrease the elasticity of the carbon nanofibers and make them more brittle.

The next one is redundant. You would need so much shock absorbent gel to even make it somewhat useful against high-energy projectiles. Likewise, a carbon nanofiber mesh would work well on its own, though it wouldn't be as good as a non-mesh material since mesh generally has macro-sized holes that energy can penetrate, which is the beauty of carbon nanofibers: the point of access between the fibers are microscopic.

That is the same thing.

An insulator? To do what? That wouldn't do anything except promote gradual endothermic energy increase, which would be counter-productive.

[quote name='king of cochin' date='29 May 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1275135875' post='2315472']
I may be wrong in this, but I think carbon nano tubes have low [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_properties_of_carbon_nanotubes"]radial[/url] strength, which makes it useless to create armor with. [/quote]

Alright, yes, they have a low-radial strength, but that's not what gives its its strength. Interestingly, its largely due to its elasticity.

[quote]carbide ought to be good, but I do not if its density is optimal to create a practical armor with it.
[/quote

Required critical mass of any solid material is never optimal.

[HHAYD]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='29 May 2010 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1275152753' post='2315648']
Carbon nanotubes would create the greatest amount of dispersal of energy with a kinetic projectile. You'd have the ultimate soft-defense in this regard.

Electric Reactive Armor is very hard to make, and there are better conductors than carbon nanotubes. Electric Reactive Armor essentially vaporizes the projectile. The only problem: you need a conductor viable enough for this and I do have a few ideas about how you could make a super-capacitor in this capacity.

Thin layer of carbon nanotubes with coolant pipes would be useless. In fact, you would actually decrease the elasticity of the carbon nanofibers and make them more brittle.

The next one is redundant. You would need so much shock absorbent gel to even make it somewhat useful against high-energy projectiles. Likewise, a carbon nanofiber mesh would work well on its own, though it wouldn't be as good as a non-mesh material since mesh generally has macro-sized holes that energy can penetrate, which is the beauty of carbon nanofibers: the point of access between the fibers are microscopic.

That is the same thing.

An insulator? To do what? That wouldn't do anything except promote gradual endothermic energy increase, which would be counter-productive.
[/quote]
The coolant pipes are for stealth purpose, it makes the tank harder to spot with thermal vision thus giving it an advantage over enemy tanks that light up white-red on the thermal vision in urban combat. The shock absorbent gel are meant to soften impacts from explosives such as C4s, landmines, or HE shells that the enemy might try to spam in hopes of rattling the tank to the point it kills the operators or disables it. The insulators are also for stealth purposes in attempting to prevent excessive heat from escaping, prevents excessive heat loss from heating in cold climate and prevents excessive heat from entering in hot climate so the operators aren't negatively affected by the climate.

In hot climate, you might wonder where the heat goes to after being picked up by the coolant pipes and air conditioner. It is stored inside air-filled pressurized storage tanks that are heavily insulated and are emptied (before the tank bursts) toward the rear through the exhaust pipes when it is safe to do so or when the operators want to roast some enemy soldiers that are behind them.

Edited layers:

NERA plates
Carbon nanotubes
Tungsten carbine full armor covering
Small coolant pipes with their spaces filled in with the tungsten carbine
Carbon nanotubes
Insulator

Or would this be better? (not sure about how effective it is against shaped charge warheads, though it is basically a NERA):

Small tungsten carbine plates with a surface area of 9 cm and have rippled edges (they are jointed with other plates using carbon nanotubes)
5 cm long springs (ones on the top part are slightly stiffer so the plates don't sag) and carbon nanotube cylinder shaped wrapping (the springs are inside and connected to the cylinder wraps. The wraps are connected it to other springs' wraps to assist in spreading out the impact's energy)
Tungsten carbine full armor covering
Small coolant pipes with their spaces filled in with the tungsten carbine
Carbon nanotubes
Insulator


Is it possible for me to use armoring plates that have uniform sized and placed dimples? The dimples improve aerodynamics which improves fuel efficiency and speed, though I am not sure how effective are highly slopped dimpled plates are at deflecting projectiles.

Link: http://www.fastskinz.com/drag-terminology-defined.html

Edited May 29, 2010 by HHAYD

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='HHAYD' date='29 May 2010 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1275175102' post='2315934']
The coolant pipes are for stealth purpose, it makes the tank harder to spot with thermal vision thus giving it an advantage over enemy tanks that light up white-red on the thermal vision in urban combat. The shock absorbent gel are meant to soften impacts from explosives such as C4s, landmines, or HE shells that the enemy might try to spam in hopes of rattling the tank to the point it kills the operators or disables it. The insulators are also for stealth purposes in attempting to prevent excessive heat from escaping, prevents excessive heat loss from heating in cold climate and prevents excessive heat from entering in hot climate so the operators aren't negatively affected by the climate.[/quote]

I'm fully aware of what it's meant for, and it's not logical nor is it viable. That and as I explained to someone last night in #cnrp (I think EM), nothing is truly stealth. By applying a coolant to carbon nanotubes, you decrease elasticity and its capability of responding to an external force. By cooling it down, you automatically decrease the speed at which the molecules are able to move, thus decreasing pressure and ability to counter (effectively) a projectile shot.

I know what shock absorbent gel is and you need a lot of it to be effective against high explosives.

And as I explained, an insulator would be counter-intuitive and counter-productive and would hinder the overall capabilities of the armor at hand. This is because energy gets trapped, essentially, and not exerted outward or inward. When it gets crammed into a single location, it builds up because it wants to remain in a constant state of motion and effect. If it becomes trapped, then the energy cannot be absorbed and transferred, meaning that the insulator would actually negate any plausible effectiveness armor could provide.

[quote]In hot climate, you might wonder where the heat goes to after being picked up by the coolant pipes and air conditioner. It is stored inside air-filled pressurized storage tanks that are heavily insulated and are emptied (before the tank bursts) toward the rear through the exhaust pipes when it is safe to do so or when the operators want to roast some enemy soldiers that are behind them.[/quote]

Ninja edit: not going to address this.

[quote]Small tungsten carbine plates with a surface area of 9 cm and have rippled edges (they are jointed with other plates using carbon nanotubes)
5 cm long springs (ones on the top part are slightly stiffer so the plates don't sag) and carbon nanotube cylinder shaped wrapping (the springs are inside and connected to the cylinder wraps. The wraps are connected it to other springs' wraps to assist in spreading out the impact's energy)
Tungsten carbine full armor covering[/quote]

Whoa whoa whoa, you're talking about [i]springs[/i] now? Springs are useless in energy dispersal on this magnitude, and you would have a rather bulky and unsteady vehicle. Maximum energy dispersal would be better suited for a scalar system in which you have scales of armor, similar to the function of plates in the DragonSkin vest system.

[quote]Small coolant pipes with their spaces filled in with the tungsten carbine[/quote]

For what purpose? Coolants are counter-productive and the stealth is wanton. It isn't viable because they won't be stealth (since any form of energy transmission will relay heat [i]anyways[/i], so you would have an abnormally cooled 'detection' within an area), and it would decrease the rigidity of the armor at hand, along with the carbon nanotubes elasticity. By disallowing the molecular ability to react and move, you create a static brick wall (per se), which is easily penetrated.

[quote]Carbon nanotubes[/quote]

These work as sheets.

[quote]Insulator[/quote]

I still fail to see why the benefits outweigh the blatant negative effects of this. If you are really worried about the operators, climate control systems work just fine.

[quote]Is it possible for me to use armoring plates that have uniform sized and placed dimples? The dimples improve aerodynamics which improves fuel efficiency and speed, though I am not sure how effective are highly slopped dimpled plates are at deflecting projectiles.[/quote]

It would be negligible. Tanks don't move at fast enough speeds to really show any sizable difference in speed and efficiency, especially if you are already using a non-petroleum energy source. Those dimples would be more effective for, say, a high speed vehicle or aircraft largely because any difference at such speeds is noticeable, same with ships. Air isn't the best medium to see any substantial difference in aerodynamics when you are applying micro-dimples.

It works for cars only on the basis that they are able to achieve high speeds and are light weight compared to tanks.

[Sargun II]

You can't make enough carbon nanotubes to be of practical use anyway.

[SpacingOutMan]

[quote name='Sargun' date='29 May 2010 - 09:30 PM' timestamp='1275183024' post='2316020']
You can't make enough carbon nanotubes to be of practical use anyway.
[/quote]

Yes you can; applied sheets are perfectly reasonable, just at the current time it is hard to account monetary pricing. That is the tamper for all research assessment and advancement. Given no monetary effects, you'd see technology (today) as being much more advance.

Edited May 30, 2010 by SpacingOutMan

[Sargun II]

[quote name='SpacingOutMan' date='29 May 2010 - 08:31 PM' timestamp='1275183080' post='2316021']
Yes you can; applied sheets are perfectly reasonable, just at the current time it is hard to account monetary pricing.
[/quote]

No, you can't. The longest carbon nanotube ever made is 18cm. There is absolutely no reason to believe we can mass produce carbon nanotubes by 2020.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Sargun

[HHAYD]

NERA plates (Tungsten carbine and rubber) attached together with carbon nanotubes
Overlapping Tungsten carbine plates (9 square cm each) attached together with carbon nanotubes
Carbon nanotubes
Rolled homogeneous Nickle-Steel alloy full plates welded together
Carbon nanotubes

[quote name='Sargun' date='29 May 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1275183024' post='2316020']
You can't make enough carbon nanotubes to be of practical use anyway.
[/quote]
This would work: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/05/100525094925.htm

If not, then I guess I will have to use carbon fiber, UHMWPE, or Kevlar instead.

[Sargun II]

Still impractical. We're talking about a rather untested product that might make 10cm of nanotubes at a time, which would have to be implemented into the armor for tanks/ships/whatever this is for, which would then have to be tested and all that nonsense. Even if that device is capable of making as many carbon nanotubes as it might take, the odds of it doing so are low and the research involved of putting them into armor, applying it, testing, etc. would take far more than ten years.

This is a lot of ifs and maybes and only in the best of circumstances. With the 2020 cap, you need reasonable proof and there isn't really any for integrating carbon nanotubes into armor.

[HHAYD]

So, would a decent replacement for the carbon nanotubes that I planned on using would be UHMWPE?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_molecular_weight_polyethylene

[Sargun II]

I don't know. I'm just here to dispel myths about carbon nanotubes.

[SpacingOutMan]

I'll be making a thread on carbon nanotubes, fiber complements, and polymer-based nanotube infusion.

[Executive Minister]

Alright, I'm going to RP the development of a Railgun/other projectile-based Anti-Ballistic Missile [u]component[/u] of my SDI. These things will be stationary installations, powered by an onsite source.

Now, the details on the cannon itself. What projectile caliber would be appropriate? 20mm? 30mm? 40mm? Bigger?

What range would this system feasibly have? Would it be used to attack oncoming threats during the Boost/Ascent phase? Midcourse phase? Terminal Phase? An all encompassing phase (limited to geography, of course)?

Edited June 18, 2010 by Executive Minister

[HHAYD]

Rail guns are energy expensive and are prone to breaking down. The larger the projectile, the more energy it sucks, the slower the firing rate, and the higher chance of heat-related failure.

Most railguns would use 20-30 mm shells. 80mm rail guns will be one-time use unless if you used large amount of liquid nitrogen/helium to cool it. You would also need a small nuclear reactor (or a large generator that runs on fossil fuel) and an ultra over sized battery.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='HHAYD' date='18 June 2010 - 01:54 AM' timestamp='1276840422' post='2341632']
Rail guns are energy expensive and are prone to breaking down. The larger the projectile, the more energy it sucks, the slower the firing rate, and the higher chance of heat-related failure.

Most railguns would use 20-30 mm shells. 80mm rail guns will be one-time use unless if you used large amount of liquid nitrogen/helium to cool it. You would also need a small nuclear reactor (or a large generator that runs on fossil fuel) and an ultra over sized battery.
[/quote]

This thing needs to destroy ICBMs, I really don't see these installations firing anything bigger than 20mm. However, I planned on making the actually guns themselves 'oversized' when compared to the projectile, to give more room for padding/insulation/cooling etc etc.

Energy is not a problem, believe me, I just want the range and projectile sizes. The installations themselves will be huge compared to the relatively small things they fire.

[king of cochin]

Rail guns are determined not by caliber but by their power rating. In terms of caliber, they are very small. Their power depends on the energy at which they are shot. I use [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=53974&view=findpost&p=1992437"]80 MJ[/url] railguns, Iamthey uses 40 MJ railguns for his double hulled aircraft carrier and lynneth uses a more powerful rated railgun. Also the tech and power rating determines the range, I have max range of 200NM, while Lynneth , I think, RPs 400 NM. If you want more technical details, ask Lynneth, SOM or me in IRC,

[Executive Minister]

I have been convinced otherwise for now.

[Executive Minister]

What's the policy on neutron flux anti-ballistic missiles like the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIM-49_Spartan"]Spartan[/url]?

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='27 June 2010 - 08:50 AM' timestamp='1277608790' post='2351552']
What's the policy on neutron flux anti-ballistic missiles like the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIM-49_Spartan"]Spartan[/url]?
[/quote]

I dont think there are any rules against that, they are essentially similar to Nuclear EMP bomb. Some of us have conducted RP experiments on EMP effects. IMO go ahead with it.

[Executive Minister]

[quote name='king of cochin' date='06 July 2010 - 01:54 PM' timestamp='1278438865' post='2361248']
I dont think there are any rules against that, they are essentially similar to Nuclear EMP bomb. Some of us have conducted RP experiments on EMP effects. IMO go ahead with it.
[/quote]

As a component of an SDI? Also, I was toying with the idea of using low yield nuclear warheads on missile Point defenses to combat the LOLCM attacks of late.

[king of cochin]

[quote name='Executive Minister' date='06 July 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1278439473' post='2361259']
As a component of an SDI? Also, I was toying with the idea of using low yield nuclear warheads on missile Point defenses to combat the LOLCM attacks of late.
[/quote]

It is for you to decide whether you want a defense system that would cause as much EMP havoc for your systems as well as damage equivalent to a blast effect ABM system. Why go for this unnecessary complication? If the Re-entry Vehicle is a dumb fall ballistic vehicle it would be easily EMP proofed and your exoatmospheric detonation would be pointless in SDI point of view. If you are looking to detonate them for the blast effect, you risk having the radiation fall on your own territory, ie, you do your enemy's job for them,

As regards lol CM attacks, best reply to that, in my opinion would be to go LOL CIWS, It is not all that hard to create a viable defense against cruise missiles in an organized manner. Also using nuclear tipped warheads against CMs would be as productive as throwing diesel to put down a small paper fire,