Re-evaluating my resources

[Gebiv]

With the recent gameplay changes, I'm just asking y'all if you think my trade set is still decent.

BR:

Fast Food

Fine Jewelry

Affluent Population

+ Wheat as wild card

Just asking you all if this is still a nice set. Completely ignoring infra reduction costs, is this trade set still worth it even though it doesn't help the environment.

[Gen Lee]

well i use that set, and i would be interested in the same thing. Should i add lead in?

Im really doubting it. I think the wheat will still be far better than lead.

hmm, but now that i take a look at your nation...i would definitely change to FF/con/beer set. I would never purchase infra using this set. I only use it bc Im done buying infra and it provides the greatest income.

[uaciaut]

Main thing about this is the lack of infra upkeep which should be at partially made up by the big income boost, especially taking into consideration that few infra is very expensive with this set unless you swap for marble+iron. Thing is not everyone can swap that often, not when you have something like furs/gold+etc and chances are the person you canceled on got a better offer meanwhile.

Hence i think that the FJ/AP set still needs to be made better, especially with coal dropping it down further (and uranium if you'll be maintaining nukes).

Like i said before, imho AP should give a bonus of 1 environment and coal/uranium/oil should be made a bit better now that they also decrease environment (i personally think they should decrease infra upkeep as well)

[Ephriam Grey]

I asked Syz about this, he gave me a wonderful explaination via PM. I'd suggest you do the same

[Rich333]

I also have this set. It's been completely ruined by the change.

I asked Syz about this, he gave me a wonderful explaination via PM. I'd suggest you do the same

Let me guess: "just change your trades", right?

[uaciaut]

I also have this set. It's been completely ruined by the change.

Let me guess: "just change your trades", right?

He prolly told him to swap when buying infra

[Syzygy]

as said before: this setup still provides way more clear-cash then the 5BG and a bit more than the 3BG. However, it never was benefitial, and is still not, to buy infra with that setup. So, if you have no intentions to buy infra for a month or two, get this setup. Save up tons of cash, get a temptrade for infracost-resources, make your jump, get your AP set back.

Like i said before, imho AP should give a bonus of 1 environment and coal/uranium/oil should be made a bit better now that they also decrease environment (i personally think they should decrease infra upkeep as well)

Uranium always was a top-resource, and for the unique effect it brings + the strong impact once you maintain nukes it is still one of the best resources in the game. I would not change anything.

Oil is a bit tricky, since it is part of the 5BG AND 8BG, and the 5BG is already quite good. I would not make oil itself any better, just strengthen MicroChips [+2hap +$4 income] so more people would see the 8BG or AP/MC sets as alternative and would demand Oil as part of it.

Coal is already quite good, since it provides access to a lot of sets, 5BG, 8BG, AP - AND is a quite good military resource (+15%land = more defense, +8% soldier eff) and lowers infra purchase. Giving AP an env-reduction and Coal -5% infracosts instead of -4% might be enough.

However, both, Oil and Coal changes have to be calculated carefully.

[Gen Lee]

ruined? really...

Does the change to coal affect a nation who has it as a native resource?

[Gen Lee]

snip

This is exactly what I have done with this set. Just saved, saved, saved, temp trade and buy infra.

I think the change brought my collection down...oh 600k...not really sure tbh.

[Rich333]

as said before: this setup still provides way more clear-cash then the 5BG and a bit more than the 3BG.

Maybe at lower infrastructure levels, but at higher levels the 3BG is better on cash too, due to its infrastructure upkeep discounts and lack of environmental penalty.

However, it never was benefitial, and is still not, to buy infra with that setup. So, if you have no intentions to buy infra for a month or two, get this setup. Save up tons of cash, get a temptrade for infracost-resources, make your jump, get your AP set back.

That's how it should be used, however there's no real point to doing so now that the relative advantage of having the 3BG is so much greater, due to the environment effects change. What little benefit the AP population bonus provides has been nullified by the environmental damage done by coal imports, so the AP+FF+FJ might as well be gotten rid of altogether in favor of the 3BG; of course, that isn't exactly easy, seeing as how that's now the only resource set really worth getting and only so many people can have it.

Uranium always was a top-resource, and for the unique effect it brings + the strong impact once you maintain nukes it is still one of the best resources in the game. I would not change anything.

For those who import it, perhaps, in some cases, but for those who start out with it, it is the worst resource to have. It makes establishing decent long-term trades far more difficult, usually impossible, and with its general uselessness for those who already have nuclear weapons (half off on nuke upkeep in no way makes up for the loss of an entire resource worth of potential income, except perhaps for those with 20 or more nukes at the sub-3k infra ranges, which is essentially no one), there's absolutely no appeal to it except as a temporary import. Even without nukes, the income bonus isn't that great, especially considering the environmental penalty for those who import it, and the technology requirement for those who start out with it. Uranium is not and has never been a top resource, and this is evidenced by the fact that so few top nations have it as a starting resource (almost none, excepting a few ancient nations), and that so few top nations who don't have it as a starting resource choose to import it except temporarily. Maybe with the nuclear power plant wonder, more top nations may start to import it, and those who started out with it may fair a bit better, but for anyone who hasn't already hit or isn't close to hitting 13k infra, it's a terrible resource to have.

Oil is a bit tricky, since it is part of the 5BG AND 8BG, and the 5BG is already quite good. I would not make oil itself any better, just strengthen MicroChips [+2hap +$4 income] so more people would see the 8BG or AP/MC sets as alternative and would demand Oil as part of it.

Oil was okayish, before the environment change, but lead was essentially a waste of a resource slot. Maybe now that everything else has been made worse to make lead look a slight bit better, you might be right, but a better solution would've simply been to make lead actually better.

Coal is already quite good, since it provides access to a lot of sets, 5BG, 8BG, AP - AND is a quite good military resource (+15%land = more defense, +8% soldier eff) and lowers infra purchase. Giving AP an env-reduction and Coal -5% infracosts instead of -4% might be enough.

The environment reduction should be added to Fine Jewelry, as the coal is merely there to represent diamonds, it's not being used industrially.

[uaciaut]

A few points to add to rich's against syzy

Maybe at lower infrastructure levels, but at higher levels the 3BG is better on cash too, due to its infrastructure upkeep discounts and lack of environmental penalty.

Huge bingo there my friend. AP takes up 7 resources, it gives VERY little mobility in terms of what else you should choose. Meaning you either get iron and lumber (preferably uranium too at big levels) and you've only got 3 more resources to add. If you choose pop increasers (like i did) you give up on bill reducers, so again at over 8k infra this trade set is !@#$ really.

Now i'm not saying that all resources should be the same, but balance through diversity should be the option here.

Your nation for example syz: at your infra a set focused on upkeep reduction is preferable to ap or the 3bg one, meaning other 5 people will get to trade with you (be them new nations or old). Even so you chose that trade set because you were forced to a bit by your natural ones.

Also take note that the percentage of big nations such as yourself is rather small, and below 8k infra your set really isn't that attractive.

What i'd like to see is a slightly more powerful AP set, that makes you enough cash to afford to buy infra at a similar rate with someone who has a 3bg combo. Mostly because not everyone can afford to swap syzy, not when the trade you drop may bail out on you because he got a better offer to join a better trade.

That's how it should be used, however there's no real point to doing so now that the relative advantage of having the 3BG is so much greater, due to the environment effects change. What little benefit the AP population bonus provides has been nullified by the environmental damage done by coal imports, so the AP+FF+FJ might as well be gotten rid of altogether in favor of the 3BG; of course, that isn't exactly easy, seeing as how that's now the only resource set really worth getting and only so many people can have it.

At the moment i have bigger advantages in keeping uranium over spices, so no FF => less income

As for this:

Coal is already quite good, since it provides access to a lot of sets, 5BG, 8BG, AP - AND is a quite good military resource (+15%land = more defense, +8% soldier eff) and lowers infra purchase. Giving AP an env-reduction and Coal -5% infracosts instead of -4% might be enough.

Coal should get an infra upkeep discount, uranium's upkeep disc should be increased and something done with oil too.

Or add a combination inside AP (possibly with one resource) to reduce infra upkeep a bit as well and slightly increase the income boost on furs and gold since they're also repugnant. Lead has been made quite a viable option now with the environment tweak it got (plus the scholars thing)

I'd really like to see people not rerolling for getting "bad" resources.

[Syzygy]

Some people never give up, do they?

all calculations include:

- LC switching for collections

- peacetime military during collection

- nation has neither oil, coal, uran as base (has to import them)

- nation has no NEO (has to use borderwalls)

with the 5BG set my nation currently makes:

- 10.3M clear profit

- can buy 31.60infra from that per day

- needs 4 borderwalls for perfect environment

with the 3BG set my nation would make:

- 11.3M clear profit

- can buy 31.72infra from that per day

- needs 2 borderwalls for perfect environment

with the AP/FJ set my nation would make:

- 12.6M clear profit

- can buy 28.51infra from that per day

- needs 4 borderwalls for perfect environment

try again.

that is AFTER bills and I have almost 14k infra. Your math that above 8k the AP/FJ produces lower cash than the 3BG is wrong, not even to talk about the 5BG.

Edited May 22, 2008 by (DAC)Syzygy

[uaciaut]

3bg + fish/uranium?

5bg + fish/cattle/uranium?

fj/ap + what?

also note you've got some extra wonders too, including the nuclear power plant and iss (yes i know i can purchase the iss, i just haven't yet )

Too clarify: I was expecting it to look worse, i admit. Still it's a question of popularity and because people will actively purchase infra they'll tend to avoid fj/ap more, plus it does need a need of tweaking

Edited May 22, 2008 by uaciaut

[Syzygy]

3BG+Fish+Uran

5BG+Fish+Uran+Cattle

FJ/AP+Cattle+Wheat+Iron+Lumber+Uran

Yes, I have NPP and ISS, but what does that matter since their boni apply to the 3BG and 5BG in my scenario as well. I can of course do the calculations again without them, or with other infralevels, that does in no way change the fact that for pure income still: AP/FJ/Steel > 3BG > 5BG. The difference is a bit lower yet, agreed. But the setup is in no way "ruined".

However, I said before and say again that I would agree that either FJ or AP could need a env-bonus since in their scenario the coal is not used for indutrialization but for (artificial) diamonds, which do not pollute the land.

[elpadrino]

dont forget the -10aircraft and the increased bills of the AP/FJ set, in war times AP/FJ are a lot worse and a war usually starts by surprise so you can not change all your resources to fight better,

now that there are people that knows a lot about the game Im going to ask some dudes

for a nation with wine + gold what do you think will be better in peace times, I suppose the AP/FJ set + ¿? and is there anyway to take AP/FJ/construcction without loosing a lot of income?

thankx

Edited May 24, 2008 by elpadrino

[uaciaut]

However, I said before and say again that I would agree that either FJ or AP could need a env-bonus since in their scenario the coal is not used for indutrialization but for (artificial) diamonds, which do not pollute the land.

Yeah, an environment bonus in the fj/ap setup would be a great idea really

[Cruxador]

However, I said before and say again that I would agree that either FJ or AP could need a env-bonus since in their scenario the coal is not used for industrialization but for (artificial) diamonds, which do not pollute the land.

Not true. Coal is used to melt the gold/silver, so that it can be formed into jewelry. The Diamonds come from Gems. Gameplay-wise though this might be nice, though.

[Thorr]

Syz can you compare AP/FJ To my resources

Cattle fish diamond iron lumber pig spice sugar uranium water wheat wine.

I get only FF

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=62871

I also trade out gems and water temporarily and get alum marble when I am ready to buy infra.

[uaciaut]

Syz can you compare AP/FJ To my resources

Cattle fish diamond iron lumber pig spice sugar uranium water wheat wine.

I get only FF

http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_d...Nation_ID=62871

I also trade out gems and water temporarily and get alum marble when I am ready to buy infra.

Well compared to mine at least. I generally try to temp iron lumber when paying bills and swap to get FF when collecting (since nuke bills are huge) so basically the only extra thing you have "or are actively using" is water. But the best permanent set is FJ/AP+Cattle+Wheat+Iron+Lumber+Uran like syzy said (for a nuclear nation, though at high infra values the bonus from spices+FF will probably be bigger than the upkeep of 20/25 nukes)

So it's comparing coal+furs+gold+silver vs water+pigs+sugar+spices

So we have 15% extra land, a 4% and a 2% infra cost reduction (which makes infra even cheaper when you swap for alum marble) 8.5$ and 2 happiness + 3happiness and 5% extra pop

vs

2.5happiness and 1 environment (which practically makes all your happ and pop boosters better) a 3% and a 3.5% pop boost, 1 happ boost from sugar, 8% land from spices and 2 happ from spices as well as 2 from FF

So basically compared you have

15% extra land vs 8% extra land

slightly more infra cost reduction (at high infra values it's notable)

8.5$ + 2happiness vs 7.5happiness + 1 environment

5% pop increase vs 3% and 3.5% (values multiply so the second is bigger than 6.5% actually)

Basically happiness gets a % modifier from environment, but base value is 7.5happ = 15 income compare to 12.5 income from ap/fj

Thing is as an owner of AP/FJ i seriously lose ground because of gold and furs which give me a pretty small income increase and the lack of environment. What would balance AP/FJ more would be 1 more environment point and perhaps another point of happ or two. Other than that they're pretty close, but yeah yours is better than the classic ap/fj one

[Gen Lee]

I decided that the lack of upkeep was too costly...I'm switching to a variation of the set.

Coal

Gems

Gold

Silver ---Fine Jewels

Fish

Wine

Furs --- Affluent Pop.

Lumber

Iron

Uranium --- for upkeep reduction

Wheat

Cattle --- for some +Pop.

I had to get uranium into my set bc it was 850k per day 0_0. If you don't have nukes you have more options to add another bonus.

I think this is my best option, but I guess I'll see as soon as i complete it. Since I don't know how to calculate it like Syz did...

Edited May 27, 2008 by Gen. Lee