Operation Restoration OOC Thread

[Captain Enema]

Isaac this thread isn't about you, stop trying to make it so it is about you.

[Mara Lithaen]

It's not an insane delay, I'm mother$%&@ing busy, you arseholes.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Mara Lithaen

[Triyun]

What does the wipe stuff Mara posted mean?

[Mara Lithaen]

As in I'm not recognizing you two's current posts. I have been very extremely busy with stuff and haven't really had any time to get on these forums to post. I just put in my response.

[Triyun]

Quick fun fact Mara. If you're going to be a !@#$%* over a slight typo made, and then expect us to give you a break and take back our autos. You're kinda delusional. But thats why you're in this fight anyways.

[Mara Lithaen]

I'm not !@#$%*ing over a typo. I'm pissed off because if either of you two got busy IRL I would have no issue giving you whatever time you needed to get back to post.

[Triyun]

Mara I'm sorry but you take no damage, you act !@#$%*y and disrespectful, and throw a hissy fit every time. If you acted respectful and you actually took damage in your posts, we'd have something to take about. Instead you have your pilots dodge missiles and ignore large parts of other peoples posts while laughing about how stupid they are in order to feed your own ego. In other words you make it all about you being this brilliant hero and we should just appreciate you even when there isn't anything to back it up. So no, if you're not going to be sportsmanlike, and your going to just curse at other players I'm afraid I'm going to have to be joining Cent on this one in saying you posted after the auto, you gotta deal with the auto. When you can take a breather, not treat everyone else like storm troopers that can't hit the broadside of a barn, take a few hits yourself, and be polite then we can talk and see if we want to grant you more time.

[Mara Lithaen]

I'm actually putting roleplay into my posts and not relying on numbers, you mean. Or did you skip the parts about the losses I've taken?

[Triyun]

Lets look air to air:

[quote]First engaging with volleys of their externally launched missiles, each F-22 and F-23 were met with 4-5 low profile long range missiles, mixing both IR tracking and radar guided weapons. This meant that it required a variety of counter measures to defeat. As soon as their missiles were away the fighters rapidly would move to super cruise utilizing their advance stealth systems at closer range to avoid detection as they moved in a random pattern around the raptors and widows to begin the shoot out. Equally nefarious though was the linkages of onboard guidance with the Tianxia own sensors, which allowed it to defeat a wide variety of counter measures would be quickly wiped aside, and simply out turning the missiles would prove only a stop gap measure.
[/quote]

[quote]Lauren cackled in a mid-air duel, maneuvering her Widow like a master guitarist does her fingers on the instrument, twisting and swerving through the intense dogfights erupting across the northwestern coastline, as Vauleyan and Imperial forces interpenetrated in a snarling tangle of questing missiles and snarling autocannon, just as she played merry hell with the Vauleyan before her, feeling much like a child playing with her food as she cut her engines back and turned inside the enemy before her, who was her or himself a veritable royal of the skies. Her twin autocannon bursts failed to hit their marks not once, not twice, but three times. Her Starstreak pod missed. A sidewinder overshot by less than five meters, not quite exploding close enough to catch the barely-subsonic Lightning II.

Her EW officer warned her barely in time for her to outmaneuver the Tianxian missile that nearly came up her tailpipe, but warn her he did. As he reconfigured his sensors to track more such missiles, Lauren finally made contact with the Vauleyan, a volley of autocannon fire ripping apart the pilot’s tail section and rear wings, wiggling her wings once in the salute due a worthy enemy before slewing around to face the missile’s origin.
Her slew seemed to throw somebody off-guard, as a super-cruising fighter screeched past overhead of her, burning with the IR signature only such a fast-moving target could provide. “Well met, Chinaman…” she muttered, as her EW pinged off again, prompting her to pull a seven-G turn to evade a pair of Tianxian hunter-killers that had once again nearly had the best of her, and then her own Sidewinder rack opened up and spat an IR-guided missile at the speeding Tianxian.

“Bloody fool… isn’t used to fighting someone with a clue, poor dear.” She said to herself as she turned inside the enemy’s radius and flung off an AMRAAM from her centerline bay.

With such battle-tactics apparently the norm, the advanced stealth coatings and systems of the Tianxians did little good when the former were proverbially glowing like a heated iron, and the Imperial pilots used this to their most vicious advantage, coming out of subsonic speed in short bursts to range on the still-hot Tianxians and volley off missiles before skewing heavy-G turns and scrambling out close range, the better for their EW operators to detect missile launches and adjust their flights accordingly. That wasn’t to say the Imperials didn’t lose fighters, for they did, but the same rules applied to the Tianxians as the Athenians – three-to-one odds would, and did, suffice to kill the invaders, if the three Imperials were smart about their fighting. Where the Tianxians were advanced beyond the means of the Imperium, the Imperials were fighting for their homes, their lives, and their families, and tales of aces wafted down from the heavens as great deeds were done, certain pilots good enough to even the playing field with the Tianxians achieving the status of living embodiments of Michael the Archangel as they grappled with their foes with the deft touch of the blessed.[/quote]

You pretty much ignore the fact that there are multiple missiles coming in, and there are multiple sensors in there which provide redundancies against electronic warfare counter measures, and then take the time to call Tianxia pilots idiots, which you did in every single post. You don't provide any explanation as to how you're defeating my redundancies and counter measures. Most of your stuff I anticipated in my last move. Its highly unlikely btw, if you go by my last post which just have these missiles swarming constantly, and pretty !@#$@#$ hard to dodge, that you'd be even talking because you'd still be pulling more gees burning out your fuel, but still. Your basically handling all this like its no problem for your 'awesome' hero pilot, and that the pilots they are going up against are morons, in fact you say so. Now it'd be one thing if it was just one arrogant pilot, but like literally half your post is you saying the other people don't know what they are doing, and you're basing that solely on your idea that you should be the main char or something. Because your a pretty low tech nation, and you're just autoing through the other sides counter measures, defensive systems, etc, and then bragging about it. I'm not saying cause your low tech you should have to take vastly larger amounts of damage, but you can't be like ignoring the other sides defensive systems completely and then saying how smart you are and us not think that this is just you being OOC arrogant. This is all pretty common sense stuff. And if you can't deal with it, I'm sorry, I'm just not going to feel bad about being a hard ass against someone who is so rude to me.

[Kankou]

Triyun, your redundancy would actually degrade your general offensive capabilities.

[Mara Lithaen]

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1347645281' post='3030164']
Lets look air to air:





You pretty much ignore the fact that there are multiple missiles coming in, and there are multiple sensors in there which provide redundancies against electronic warfare counter measures, and then take the time to call Tianxia pilots idiots, which you did in every single post. You don't provide any explanation as to how you're defeating my redundancies and counter measures. Most of your stuff I anticipated in my last move. Its highly unlikely btw, if you go by my last post which just have these missiles swarming constantly, and pretty !@#$@#$ hard to dodge, that you'd be even talking because you'd still be pulling more gees burning out your fuel, but still. Your basically handling all this like its no problem for your 'awesome' hero pilot, and that the pilots they are going up against are morons, in fact you say so. Now it'd be one thing if it was just one arrogant pilot, but like literally half your post is you saying the other people don't know what they are doing, and you're basing that solely on your idea that you should be the main char or something. Because your a pretty low tech nation, and you're just autoing through the other sides counter measures, defensive systems, etc, and then bragging about it. I'm not saying cause your low tech you should have to take vastly larger amounts of damage, but you can't be like ignoring the other sides defensive systems completely and then saying how smart you are and us not think that this is just you being OOC arrogant. This is all pretty common sense stuff. And if you can't deal with it, I'm sorry, I'm just not going to feel bad about being a hard ass against someone who is so rude to me.
[/quote]

There's a difference between hard ass and jack ass, by the way.

If you noticed, Lauren is pretty much my ace pilot, thus her reaction to the whole ordeal. I went on to say that I took heavy losses against you. I never *didn't* take losses, but the curbstomp you're expecting won't happen. And the reason I'm not taking the time to call out specifically what I'm doing in counter is sheerly because [i]I don't know what the hell would counter it.[/i] So I don't even pretend to know, and take the fact that I'm the only one actually RPing in this war-roleplay rather than spamming numbers and use it to my advantage.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Mara Lithaen

[Imperator Azenquor]

@Mara: Would it be possible to get an estimated time for you to edit that cyberwarfare post? Once that's done I'll make my next post.

[Mara Lithaen]

Estimated time? It could happen tonight. Sunday night at latest, 'cause if I don't edit it tonight then I've got stuff going on tomorrow. But, probably here in a few hours. I'm just trying to figure out what I want to say, now.

[Imperator Azenquor]

Okay, thanks for the update.

[Triyun]

[quote name='Mara Lithaen' timestamp='1347666512' post='3030289']
There's a difference between hard ass and jack ass, by the way.

If you noticed, Lauren is pretty much my ace pilot, thus her reaction to the whole ordeal. I went on to say that I took heavy losses against you. I never *didn't* take losses, but the curbstomp you're expecting won't happen. And the reason I'm not taking the time to call out specifically what I'm doing in counter is sheerly because [i]I don't know what the hell would counter it.[/i] So I don't even pretend to know, and take the fact that I'm the only one actually RPing in this war-roleplay rather than spamming numbers and use it to my advantage.
[/quote]

Yeah see thats the problem in this particular circumstance, because the multiple redundancies to counter the counters would make what you're doing not really work. In other words you're calling me an idiot for not doing things that [i]I did[/i] and now saying that you shouldn't have to describe how you got passed those things that I did because you don't know how to do that. In other words you've got a bunch of warped logic. There is a difference between rolling over for a curb stomp and taking the appropriate damage. In this case you've been put in a spot, where you're going to take an enormous world of hurt and your !@#$ was hit in a way to make each success (against btw which most of your defenses are a generation behind) amplify the amount of damage you need to take from the next hit and the hit after that. Now you can whine all you want about numbers, but numbers and qualitative edges and why thats unfair to you but it is both the reality and exactly why I did what I did in the manner in which I did it.

CN RP is not a moral contest, its a game. Your behavior in the game is one that does not inspire one towards mercy or cutting you a huge break because your behavior is extraordinarily off putting and rude. Now you can complain all you want to me that I'm mean, or a bully, even though I wasn't the one who started this little emotional moment here, but that ignores 2 key things you should learn, that aren't so much applicable to this, but perhaps to your strategy going forward. The first is that within the rules, [i]I'm in the right[/i], I got my auto totally legally and Curristan already upheld the auto.

Therefore I get to have my way unless you were to actually make an honest effort to come to some sort of agreement which appealed to me. You're ignoring this key fact in a negotiation/ debate whatever you want to call it. I can sit on my lead and if nothing happens I win. If nothing happens you lose. So if you come in and be a complete ass hole to me, you're really only harming yourself because the default position there is that you lose. In such a case the logical behavior of the one without is to come respectfully to the person with and convince them to come to some sort of arrangement that can be considered good or at least utility maximizing for both.

Secondly you're ignoring the second key element. War [i]is always hell[/i] and you make use of what you have to smash your opponent to pieces especially in the event that they are not politically manageable or civil. Don't complain about allies, complain about technology, complain about attitudes and then say you would be given a pass. You just look like a piss poor player at the war part of this game, which you've shamelessly self promoted. Most of those smart players behave according to a mix of risk and capability. I can be a jack ass because I've got the mix of individual strength and allies who chomp at the bits for fights and are ready to get into it with others. That doesn't mean if I didn't have the capacity I would play Tianxia, or hell there would be a Tianxia as opposed to something else. The analogy in terms of state behavior, internal politics comparisons aside, that NI has is Saddam's Iraq. You think you're a 800 lbs gorilla when you're very loud tree monkey. These kinds of attitudes which do not mesh capability and reality turn you into a pariah.

Of course one always has the opportunity to choose to be a pariah. I actually find that perfectly respectable as a choice. If one wishes to be one of these states, the Axis of Evil/ Outposts of Tyranny whatever it can make for interesting story. But interesting story isn't a military shield, nor by the way is it a reason in and of itself for other players to pretend a pariah state is something other than a pariah state.

Lastly I want to say to everyone, this is all very simple and if you remove subjective morals and perceived grievances you'll find there is an effort here to be pretty fair and descriptive. Look everyone in every conflict you're ever in, especially if you communicate with both sides better than others in your coalition will tell you that all sides [i]always think themselves the grieved party[/i] and all sides always see the other as being unfair/OOC/ whatever you want to throw on there. You only will get a deal one of two ways. The first is you have the resources to outright get what you want by completely beating the other guy. ut the second is through diplomacy which is the art of good will. If someone comes on and just insults the other person to no end, says that they are a bad person, or whatever else and that person does not have any sort of thing backing them up to let them have their way, then the second person just looks stupid to the first and they won't deal. This is what Mara did. Smaller and newer players especially those who get themselves into a fight [i]for whatever reason[/i] would do well to heed the advise I've listed here in the future, because the dirty little secret is that big nations aren't as mean as some people claim we are, but if we're going to win either way you gotta give us some incentive to cooperate if only from a utility maximizing perspective.

Edited September 15, 2012 by Triyun

[Kankou]

The above post only works if people stop acting like everything the other side says is based on OOC. Unfortunately, I've seen too much hypocrisy on that front to take things seriously.

[Mara Lithaen]

Edited. Doesn't matter.

[Executive Minister]

Jesus Christ. Just drop nukes and reroll lol.

[Imperator Azenquor]

@Mara: Thank you for the edit, my reply should be up in a day or two. Quick question about this bit:

[quote]The HMS Return to Sender SSBN floated, silently, some hundred miles offshore to the north of Vladivostok, and rose to launch depth for a mere minute as the crew braced for launch (in the event of a malfunction), and then the SubHawk in Tube 12 lanced upward on a billow of air, shed its casing and shrieked off towards Vauleyo at a mere five feet above the wavetops, the Sender returning to the depths from whence it came, traveling northwards. [/quote]

First, according to your factbook, the HMS Return to Sender is a cruiser and not a sub. Second what is a SubHawk? And third, when you say offshore to the north of Vladivostok, could you give a slightly more precise location? (For example is the sub in the Sea of Okhotsk, the Bering Sea, etc)?

Edited September 17, 2012 by Imperator Azenquor

[Triyun]

[quote name='Imperator Azenquor' timestamp='1347862927' post='3031027']
@Mara: Thank you for the edit, my reply should be up in a day or two. Quick question about this bit:



First, according to your factbook, the HMS Return to Sender is a cruiser and not a sub. Second what is a SubHawk? And third, when you say offshore to the north of Vladivostok, could you give a slightly more precise location? (For example is the sub in the Sea of Okhotsk, the Bering Sea, etc)?
[/quote]

Also there is a slight problem of the Sea of Japan (which is where Vladivostok) and the Sea of Okhtsk being covered with Tianxia listening stations in all approaches (all are narrow), and one of the most heavily defended sub waters in the world. Not to mention from my understanding of Cold War history pretty hard to hide subs in.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Triyun

[Kankou]

Actually, if Mara had managed to get into the Sea of Japan, she would have a fun time in it, because the Sea of Japan is the best possible location to hide a submarine short of being out in the ocean. The depth, various currents coming together, and the isolated water system contribute to a volatile underwater environment not seen in any other sea.

Of course, this is supposing she gets there. I doubt she would be, though.

[Triyun]

I was referring more to Okhotsk there which is the easier approach, as its only one island group to pass through. Vesus 2-3 for Sea of Japan

[Kankou]

I know, but since you didn't make it clear, figured I should just add a bit more info.

As for the Okhotsk, the general depth is shallow, and has far less turbulence than the East China Sea (almost all major currents that enters the Sea of Japan becomes trapped in that sea), so relatively speaking it's like looking through glass.

[Mara Lithaen]

Fixed the name of the sub. Insurance Policy.

[Triyun]

I'm still going to have to challenge the idea that Mara can float right off my coast without me noticing at all and without any posting considering she's floating within an island chain. (For those that are not familiar with submarines, they are very hard to track on the open ocean, but once you move through narrower points (narrow being defined as areas like the GIUK (Greenland, Iceland, UK) gap (this is where the US and UK tracked russian subs heading for the Atlantic) or the Ryukyu Islands (this is where the US tracks some of the Chinese Subs heading for the Pacific. Mara's fine positioning a ship 100 miles from Ehestadt, but she should have to actually RP an approach that far into my internal sea (not my economic exclusive zone, my internal sea). Also I'd point out she's not only got all those sensors to deal with but she's got a [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=110416&view=findpost&p=3022096]rather sizable fleet with ASW capabilities[/url] to contend with to even break out of the East Pacific, and if she came through the Aleutians she'd be dealing with even more listening posts.

Also just a reminder as my auto was upheld, I'll be requesting another auto Thursday. I'd suggest you post by with damages of the previous auto reflected. The stuff you claimed you don't have like air defense command bunkers you say you don't have, you kinda need to have control centers for any sort of integrated air defenses that can hit my planes. IF you don't have a bunker, it doesn't mean it doesn't die, it means when I kill it it dies faster.