The GM's Court

[Triyun]

Signals and imagery intelligence followed by special forces being deployed for the final track on leadership.  I've already initiated the blockade and begun intel gathering.

[TheShammySocialist]

 

Spyroll on real time actionable intelligence for the location of leaders.  Spyroll for any bunkers.

 

At ninety percent odds...

 

1-10 Failure

11-100 Success

 

6    30

 

One success, one failure, guv'nor.

[Beauty]

PLEASE don't consider wiping any of this RP except what I am reporting!

 

Post in Question: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/116549-freedom-for-that-beleagured-penninsula/#entry3127603

 

It is said Tianxia is using information from drone reconnaissance to detect hidden bunker locations, can you request elaborating of details as I noted my bunkers were underground. This would require 3D Map Data from an inside source of Kamchatka to obtain, with a possible drone/satellite finding the entrances. As it is well known that Kamchatka Oblast is a mountainous region with many mines, I noted I was using the mining tunnels and have built underground locations inside of there.

 

If you would like sources of the information, it can be found here in my Military Actions thread.

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/116553-kamchatka-military-actions/#entry3127487

 

 

If you read this in the few minutes after it is posted, I am writing a highly detailed response and please don't wipe anything until I have posted.

[Centurius]

I'd recommend you to take this up and discuss it with Triyun before requesting a GM ruling. There are methods of mapping, with great accuracy, underground facilities and your state is too young to have built the kind of underground structures that could manage to evade those. As such unless Triyun uses a method that is way out there the GMs have no role on this matter.

[Beauty]

I'd recommend you to take this up and discuss it with Triyun before requesting a GM ruling. There are methods of mapping, with great accuracy, underground facilities and your state is too young to have built the kind of underground structures that could manage to evade those. As such unless Triyun uses a method that is way out there the GMs have no role on this matter.

 

It has been around since Sep. 2012 I believe, We also have had great mining resources for awhile. All nations previously in my location have as well, however I don't know if using those are allowed. I remember writing about mining here for awhile. I am obviously playing a form of North Korea here, who has also used mining tunnels to get to places and what not.

 

The existance of the tunnels aren't even the issue. It is the discovering of them via Air Drones.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Rotavele

[Captain Enema]

Again, please take this up with Triyun. If you two can't come to an understanding, then ask us to weigh in with our thoughts. Fair warning, the last two who were screaming back and forth in the GM court progressively found their acess to it curtailed. Meaning each and everytime they start slagging each other off on this thread, they found new conditions they had to meet before they could use the GM court.

 

So my advice is to be polite, speak to Triyun first, and carry on from there.

 

 

Neither of you shold come a runnin' to the GM court without having made a real effort to sort it out between the two of you first.

 

 

Fair warning has been issued, carry on, I look forward to reading the rp.

[Triyun]

Well Centurius apparently Rota does not want to solve this privately and would rather do it in the GM court:

 

Triyun: Ok

[12:14am] Triyun: so you want to do this privately
[12:14am] Triyun: or should I talk to the GMs
[12:14am] Triyun: cause I don't think you quite understand how these technologies work
[12:17am] Rotavele[NADC]: Court.
[12:17am] Triyun: Alright
[12:18am] Triyun: You sure
[12:18am] Triyun: cause they would rather we solve this privately
[12:18am] Triyun: but if you want
[12:19am] Rotavele[NADC]: I would prefer court.

 

So in regards to Rota's first point, by doing a massively coordinated effort as of yesterday its really unlikely that you would be able to do much deception.  This is because its very rare to launch massive amounts of mining projects all at once, I think common sense can tell us all that.

 

Now onto Rota's response post which is highly problematic.

 

 

K.I.A. Mountain Observatories noted all information obtainable about the missiles hitting the Decoy Planes. As soon as F-5 and F-6 Planes launched their Subsonic Missiles, Observatories would pick these up.

 

In reality cruise missile detection by ground based targets is very difficult.  This is even more difficult to do when you have radar absorbent coating in the missile.  the K.I.A. is without any sort of advanced air defense system, Rota just built an air defense system yesterday and is using exclusively ground detection.  

 

Here are some sources augmenting this point as I'm sure Rota will insist on it:

http://www.fas.org/irp/threat/missile/naic/part07.htm

http://www.marshall.org/subcategory.php?id=53  

 

I'd also point to Rota's post about his own cruise missile:

 

The KCA-01 Air Shark was constructed from bits and pieces of other cruise missile and Anti-Aircraft systems. It uses Inertial Guide, GPS Guidance, and TERCOM Guidance. The missile has the capabilities to fly at an extremely low range, enhancing stealth on ground radar. The missile is immune to Jamming and Deception techniques due to having no external emissions after launch and a fully on-board TERMCOM & Intertial Guidance System. The On-Board GPS System is not immune to jamming, and offers pin-point target accuracy, however TERCOM and The Inertial Guidance provided by the missile also provides extremely accurate impact points. The enemy's defenses are further hampered by the missiles' small size and low-altitude flight capability, which makes them difficult to detect on radar.

 

As one can easily see detection right off the bat, especially by a low tech air force is extremely challenging.  It'd be hard enough to detect by someone with a high tech one.  Further for whatever reason Rota thinks his post (Which btw he ripped from wikipedia) is a higher standard of detection proof than a Tianxia missile, which has been tested many times and obviously starts at a higher tech level.

 

Therefore this part of the post would have to be considered a god mode:

Since the incoming missiles were subsonic (or slower than the speed of sound which travels at 1,236 kph/768 mph) and they were fired from 250 kilometers outside of the nation, All targets shoot and scoots would have at the very least 5 minutes before the missiles entered the nation's border. Due to the rapid Shoot-And-Scoot maneuvers being carried out by National Defenses [OOC]Source[/OOC], these would prove very useless against TEL and all mobile units including the air force which was also shooting and scooting.

 

Additionally these shoot and scooting tactics are irrelevant to the targets attacked.  The defenses targeted were clearly marked by me as the following:

With that stealth F-5 and F-6 fighter aircraft began launching very low observable stand off range missiles from 250 kilometers hitting air defense sites across the UPRK.  They employed combinations of GPS guidance along with radar seeking and ir seeking (for the lidar) systems that would rapidly attrit defenses while flying well below what missile defenses could detect in more than half a second response.  In the final phase of the approaches the missiles would engage their second phase ramjet boosters and execute high gee super sonic turns that could evade defenses easily before slamming into targets.  

 

 

 

Now here are the lists of weapons that Rota references:

 

Surface-To-Air

 

 

---------------
MGM-52 Lance - Mobile Field Artillery Tactical Surface-To-Surface Missile System
MIM-72 Chaparral- Mobile SAM System

KCA-01 Air Shark - Anti-Aircraft Missile Developed by the UPRK to be detailed shortly.

 

AN/TPQ-36 Firefinding Radar: ACTIVE

Kamchatkan LIDAR: ACTIVE

Kamchatkan LORAN: ACTIVE

Kamchatkan Anti-Air System: ACTIVE

Kamchatkan Anti-Naval System: ACTIVE

 

The AN/TPQ-36 is a tow mounted radar, its highly doubtful it could do shoot and scoot, further if its on and therefore usable its findable by a radar seeking missile.  IF Rota was employing large mobile radars that could have some very poor cruise missile tracking ability it'd be like this one:

Its a semi mobile system not a mobile system.  Meaning it could not disassemble itself and move out of the way before a missile came in.  

 

In addition there are currently 0 IRL operational large scale LIDAR systems.  For Rota with 50 tech to have one seems unlikely.  In regards to the MIM-72 I never RPed engaging those, those are IR guided and thus not applicable.  Now there are some that had been modified  with radars but they had to once again be towed and are very low powered, how they'd engage either a stealth fighter or a cruise missile is just dumb.

 

Additionally:

 

Due to the rapid Shoot-And-Scoot maneuvers being carried out by National Defenses [OOC]Source[/OOC], these would prove very useless against TEL and all mobile units including the air force which was also shooting and scooting.[/quote]

 

 

This is just wrong.  Air Forces do not shoot and scoot, they can fly up but then they are in the zone of engagement.  Its hard to argue that they can shoot anything from the ground.  Further its hard to argue you can move them around en masse on the ground in a mountainous area.  Movement of all of these units is not undetectable but rather highly vulnerable to ground moving target indicator radar and synthetic aperture radar both featured in Tianxia's arsenals and again Cruise missiles are course correcting when guided by source feeds.

 

 

This next part of the post I don't think Rota understands the roles of different missiles:

 

The Kamchatkan Defense launched MQM-107 Streaker's for every incoming missile to deceive them off course. [OOC]Since you never specify anything and say "all your base are under attack. You can read more on how these are used against AAM and SAMs here.[/OOC]. Approximately 4 Non-Mobile SAM launches took damage.

 

The missiles being decieved were air to ground cruise missiles, the launch of drones would do absolutely nothing to deceive them, its a target drone for S-Air and A- AIR missiles.  Its hard to argue and I don't think anyone here will except maybe Rota that you can deceive a air to ground missile to hit an air target.  

 

I'd point out to Rota that they are used to engage air to air and surface to air missiles:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MQM-107_Streaker  This when they are deliberately targeting a drone.  Nothing is said about fooling even surface to air and air to air missiles.  Instead it is purely talked about as a target practice system.  I ask this be wiped for its sheer ridiculousness.

 

With all of these missile intercepts are way outside of Rota's tech range, and he simply lacks RPing putting up any flying airborne sensors that could help.  He lacks the tech to link those airborne sensors to ground defenses, and he lacks the missiles that are capable of engaging cruise missiles.

 

Next part:

 

an style="font-size: 14px;">With K.I.A. observatories watching heavily of these planes and incoming missiles, they were defended with great force. Scientists at the observatories could see the undercarriages for these launching planes. Re-Painted for Deception to appear as RK-55 SAM Missiles, BQM-74 Chukar's were launched in massive quantities to over-match (The amount of weapon's carried plus an extra 5) the expected amount of defensivemissiles being carried by these aircraft at them via remote guidance by Kamchatkan Air Defense (KAD). (Endurance: 1 Hour/8 Minutes at 972 km/h or 606 mph with a ceiling of 40,000 feet).

Rota never specifies what planes and the first sentence makes no sense.  In regards to the drones, the drones have no defensive capability I am not sure exactly what he's trying to accomplish here other than to flood the air space with radar signatures.  However if it is to attrit air to air missiles, it should be pointed out that Tianxia's F-5s have powerful AESA radars which can distinguish different radar signatures, F-16s and F-18s have a much larger one and move at different speeds than the drones and thus such deception is pretty useless.  Additionally missiles operate with a radar lock, not just fly towards the nearest thing.

 

 

Upon the launching of these, Kamchatka revealed it's greatest newly constructed weapon: The KCA-01 Air Shark. Approximately 3 KCA-01 Air Shark's, and 3 more Painted Chukar Deception Missiles would be launched in random orders at enemy aircraft which defenses were to be un-armed by the Painted Chukars.

 

Aside from Rota really having no way of detecting stealth aircraft, the KCA-01 has been declared a cruise missile by Rota not a surface to air missile.  

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/116553-kamchatka-military-actions/#entry3127473

 

Specifications

Weight: 3,150 pounds (1,430 kg)
Length:  20 ft. 9 in. (6.3 m)
Diameter: 24.5 inches (62 cm)
Engine: Williams International F107-WR-101 Turbofan Engine 600 lbf (2.7 kN) thrust
Wingspan: 12 feet (3.7 m)
Operational range: 1,500+ mile
Speed: 550 mph (890 km/h, Mach 0.73);
Guidance System: KPA Inertial Guidance Systems | On-Board GPS Systems | KPA TERCOM Systems
Launch Platform: TEL, B-52H Stratofortress Bomber[/quote]

(Actually its a copy of a US cruise missile)

 

It has absolutely zero attack capability against air units, change the missile to attack Tianxia units in the air is both stupid and illegal.

 

Now onto Rota's objections, the targets that I hit of Rota were found several ways.  First Tianxia satellites like all imagery satellites always fly overhead and are always collecting imagery, so basic detection is pretty simple.  Next when Rota turns on radars and LIDARs these release a huge amount of detectable energy which I then homed in on, there is very little way to avoid this especially at low tech levels.  Next aircraft which I targeted are all requiring large air fields, you cannot take off from dirt runways without destroying turbofan engines.  In regards to defeating radar, radar absorbent materials are very possible.  

 

http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?/topic/93857-united-federation-of-the-east-factbook/#entry2673297

 

Its laid out in my factbook, here is other articles if you wish to read:

http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs/16807/InTech-Microwave_absorption_characteristics_of_carbon_nanotubes.pdf

Different types of RAM coating and hull frames is on many objects today, including the F-117, F-35, F-22, B-2.

 

Further jamming radars is a commonly practiced technique, which I do know how works but I won't bore you with the technicalities of.  Here they are though dumbed down:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jamming_and_deception

 

So GMs if you could be so kind to wipe this post for all these many reasons, I'd sure appreciate it.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Triyun

[Beauty]

Do you have a tl;dr version?

[Triyun]

Your entire post is completely wrong, and the claims you made about my post are wrong and misguided, and you're talking about technologies which you do not understand the most basic system of.  You do not understand the difference in types of missiles, you do not understand the difference in types of missile guidance, you do not understand what shoot and scoot tactics are, you do not understand how different sensors work, you god mode detection with no reason for doing so, while claiming that you're immune to the same troubles with a much weaker nation.  You're post is in totality just astoundingly wrong.  

 

That's the tl;dr and that entire writing above supports my point pretty indisputably.

[Beauty]

In reality cruise missile detection by ground based targets is very difficult.  This is even more difficult to do when you have radar absorbent coating in the missile.  the K.I.A. is without any sort of advanced air defense system, Rota just built an air defense system yesterday and is using exclusively ground detection.  

 

Here are some sources augmenting this point as I'm sure Rota will insist on it:

http://www.fas.org/i...naic/part07.htm

http://www.marshall....egory.php?id=53 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Reply:

 

The detection was by telescopes watching the planes. Do you really think we aren't going to watch enemy aircraft outside our nation? Mountain Nations always have tons of Observatories. We saw the missiles via Telescope, and sight by telescope has nothing to do with Radar Absortant Coating. Also nations have weapons when they are created, atleast I have yet to see any nation RPing any building of their starting weaponry.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The KCA-01 Air Shark was constructed from bits and pieces of other cruise missile and Anti-Aircraft systems. It uses Inertial Guide, GPS Guidance, and TERCOM Guidance. The missile has the capabilities to fly at an extremely low range, enhancing stealth on ground radar. The missile is immune to Jamming and Deception techniques due to having no external emissions after launch and a fully on-board TERMCOM & Intertial Guidance System. The On-Board GPS System is not immune to jamming, and offers pin-point target accuracy, however TERCOM and The Inertial Guidance provided by the missile also provides extremely accurate impact points. The enemy's defenses are further hampered by the missiles' small size and low-altitude flight capability, which makes them difficult to detect on  radar.

 

 

As one can easily see detection right off the bat, especially by a low tech air force is extremely challenging.  It'd be hard enough to detect by someone with a high tech one.  Further for whatever reason Rota
thinks his post (Which btw he ripped from wikipedia) is a higher standard of detection proof than a Tianxia missile, which has been tested many times and obviously starts at a higher tech level.

 

Therefore this part of the post would have to be considered a god mode:

 

Since the incoming missiles were subsonic (or slower than the speed of sound which travels at 1,236 kph/768 mph) and they were fired from 250 kilometers outside of the nation, All targets shoot and scoots would have at the very least 5 minutes before the missiles entered the nation's border. Due to the rapid Shoot-And-Scoot maneuvers being carried out by National Defenses [OOC]Source[/OOC], these would prove very useless against TEL and all mobile units including the air force which was also shooting and scooting.

 

Additionally these shoot and scooting tactics are irrelevant to the targets attacked.  The defenses targeted were clearly marked by me as the following:

 

With that stealth F-5 and F-6 fighter aircraft began launching very low observable stand off range missiles from 250 kilometers hitting air defense sites across the UPRK.  They employed combinations of GPS guidance along with radar seeking and ir seeking (for the lidar) systems that would rapidly attrit defenses while flying well below what missile defenses could detect in more than half a second response.  In the final phase of the approaches the missiles would engage their second phase ramjet boosters and execute high gee super sonic turns that could evade defenses easily before slamming into targets. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Reply:

 

 

My military was practicing Shoot-And-Scoot in my military thread in preparation. When you shot your missiles, we could see them from the observatories telescopes. We immediatly RPed ordering an immediate shoot and scoot or more simply a moving of all targets as you did not specify any heat seeking or anything other than target based attacks. My anti-air systems are mostly mobile. Systems like these can easily be moved by a nation fully prepared and already practicing these techniques.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Its a semi mobile system not a mobile system.  Meaning it could not disassemble itself and move out of the way before a missile came in.  

 

In addition there are currently 0 IRL operational large scale LIDAR systems.  For Rota with 50 tech to have one seems unlikely.  In regards to the MIM-72 I never RPed engaging those, those are IR guided and thus not applicable.  Now there are some that had been modified  with radars but they had to once again be towed and are very low powered, how they'd engage either a stealth fighter or a cruise missile is just dumb.

 

Additionally:

 

Due to the rapid Shoot-And-Scoot maneuvers being carried out by National Defenses [OOC]Source[/OOC], these would prove very useless against TEL and all mobile units including the air force which was also shooting and scooting.

 

This is just wrong.  Air Forces do not shoot and scoot, they can fly up but then they are in the zone of engagement.  Its hard to argue that they can shoot anything from the ground.  Further its hard to argue you can move them around en masse on the ground in a mountainous area.  Movement of all of these units is not undetectable but rather highly vulnerable to ground moving target indicator radar and synthetic aperture radar both featured in Tianxia's arsenals and again Cruise missiles are course correcting when guided by source feeds.

Yes it is noted in the source about the air force, please read the role play about its accuracy. If you have missed those details, it leads me to question if you read anything before feeling entitled to being right.

 

You have no listed any ground moving target indicator in any of your role play or your fact book.

 

This next part of the post I don't think Rota understands the roles of different missiles:

 

The Kamchatkan Defense launched MQM-107 Streaker's for every incoming missile to deceive them off course. [OOC]Since you never specify anything and say "all your base are under attack. You can read more on how these are used against AAM and SAMs here.[/OOC]. Approximately 4 Non-Mobile SAM launches took damage.

 

The missiles being decieved were air to ground cruise missiles, the launch of drones would do absolutely nothing to deceive them, its a target drone for S-Air and A- AIR missiles.  Its hard to argue and I don't think anyone here will except maybe Rota that you can deceive a air to ground missile to hit an air target.  

 

I'd point out to Rota that they are used to engage air to air and surface to air missiles:  http://en.wikipedia....QM-107_Streaker  This when they are deliberately targeting a drone.  Nothing is said about fooling even surface to air and air to air missiles.  Instead it is purely talked about as a target practice system.  I ask this be wiped for its sheer ridiculousness.

 

With all of these missile intercepts are way outside of Rota's tech range, and he simply lacks RPing putting up any flying airborne sensors that could help.  He lacks the tech to link those airborne sensors to ground defenses, and he lacks the missiles that are capable of engaging cruise missiles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Reply:

 

What are you talking about? You have failed to read up on or realize what systems are used in these missiles. Please read up on all weapons used, as they are carefully read to be pre-1984 systems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My Reply:

 

I was afraid you would say this. I even added on my thread, which I linked you too because I wanted you to read. TERCOM is a map system comparing 3D Virtual Maps and locating objects that don't match up. When your plane would be found on these systems, it would be targeted. You can also read about Inertial Guidance, which located where the missile is and other objects are on the map. Please read my thread. This is why I copied Wikipedia because I thought if I summed it up it would look unprofessional to keep up with your weaponry intellect. I have summed it up here so it won't go over your head. Sorry about the mix up.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rota never specifies what planes and the first sentence makes no sense.  Inregards to the drones, the drones have no defensive capability I am not sure exactly what he's trying to accomplish here other than to flood theair space with radar signatures.  However if it is to attrit air to air missiles, it should be pointed out that Tianxia's F-5s have powerful AESA radars which can distinguish different radar signatures, F-16s and F-18s have a much larger one and move at different  speeds than the drones and thus such deception is pretty useless.  Additionally missiles operate with a radar lock, not just fly towards the nearest thing.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Upon the launching of these, Kamchatka revealed it's greatest newly constructed weapon: The KCA-01 Air Shark. Approximately 3 KCA-01 Air Shark's, and 3 more Painted Chukar Deception Missiles would be launched in random  orders at enemy aircraft which defenses were to be un-armed by the Painted Chukars.

Aside from Rota really having no way of detecting stealth aircraft, the KCA-01 has been declared a cruise missile by Rota not a surface to air missile.  

 

(Actually its a copy of a US cruise missile)

 

It has absolutely zero attack capability against air units, change the missile to attack Tianxia units in the air is both stupid and illegal.

 

Now onto Rota's objections, the targets that I hit of Rota were found several ways.  First Tianxia satellites like all imagery satellites always fly overhead and are always collecting imagery, so basic detection is pretty simple.  Next when Rota turns on radars and LIDARs these release a huge amount of detectable energy which I then homed in on, there is very little way to avoid this especially at low tech levels.  Next aircraft which I targeted are all requiring large air fields, you cannot take off from dirt runways without destroying turbofan engines.  In regards to defeating radar, radar absorbent materials are very possible.  

 

http://forums.cybern...k/#entry2673297

 

Its laid out in my factbook, here is other articles if you wish to read: http://cdn.intechope...n_nanotubes.pdf Different types of RAM coating and hull frames is on many objects today, including the F-117, F-35, F-22, B-2. Further jamming radars is a commonly practiced technique, which I do know how works but I won't bore you with the technicalities of.  Here they are though dumbed down:  http://en.wikipedia....g_and_deception

 

So GMs if you could be so kind to wipe this post for all these many reasons, I'd sure appreciate it.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My Reply:

 

It is a copy of a U.S. strategic missile which I copied. I also copied the link to the original post, noting it was "Modeled After" those yet wanted to customize the look and include systems from different missiles. If you would read the source, which is in the post you didn't read all the way, it notes that it can be used against aircraft as it is a tactical and strategic cruise missile. Also could be known as a universal type of missile. I apologize for not copying all of the Wikipedia page. I do not appreciate you attempting to insult my intellect though. I do skim through some things myself, but I spent hours doing research for this planned attack with help from other role players.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 I ask the GMs to re-consider the wipe and research both strategies. I also ask an official ruling is not done, but a compromise as I am confident I provided a tactical move here that is useful despite technological differences. I am fighting this war very carefully, planned, and tactical as it is obvious that I can't rely on technology or numbers to win this one.

 

I also ask the rest of war be approved by a GM before any posts are made. I don't like arguing anymore, and wish not to. This is getting out of hand.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Rotavele

[Captain Enema]

I'll send a message to shammy and cent and we'll discuss. But seeing that as rotavele's very first response to how to deal with this was, "COURT", I don't see the required effort at settling it privately on Rotavele's part. 

 

I'll keep this in mind and it will affect my decision accordingly, which at this point is technology be damned, no effort on rot's part means no effort on mine.

 

Unless Shammy and Cent have something compelling to say about it, that's about where I stand. 

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tidy Bowl Man

[TheShammySocialist]

 I ask the GMs to re-consider the wipe and research both strategies. I also ask an official ruling is not done, but a compromise as I am confident I provided a tactical move here that is useful despite technological differences. I am fighting this war very carefully, planned, and tactical as it is obvious that I can't rely on technology or numbers to win this one.

 

I also ask the rest of war be approved by a GM before any posts are made. I don't like arguing anymore, and wish not to. This is getting out of hand.

 

This is getting out of hand because you do not seem to essentially understand the technology you are throwing around, at the moment, it seems as though you think you have some revolutionary way of fighting and missiles that have "never been thought of" before. To be quite honest, Rotavele, you seem as though you read something on Wikipedia, found it attractive technologically, and then you just throw it up, without understanding how it works. There isn't really anything revolutionary here in tactics so far, that is negating the technological edge that Triyun has, that I can find, at all.

 

"Shoot and scoot" doesn't exactly work when you need to have units stationary so they can actually perform early warning measures (like semi-mobile radar units), its not a viable tactic for anti-air defense forces for the most part. When you also have outstanding situational awareness, it pretty much negates the effect of shoot and scoot anyways, as most can just track defenses as they move. "Shoot and scoot" was a tactic that was typically employed back in the Second World War, for self-propelled artillery, particularly rocket artillery, because of the smoke trails that rocket motors used to give away when launched. Against a first world military nowadays, it has pretty much lost its effectiveness due to battlefield surveillance assets.

 

Despite your claim that you are doing this "very carefully and planned", it just seems like you are throwing technology and tactics around without understanding how it (or they) works, or reading up on it completely. While this isn't against the rules, it also comes with the stipulation that when you throw it around at someone, they should be able to ask you what you are doing and how you are doing it, and how it works, to a point where you are actually correct, if you can't dole those answers out because you didn't know in the first place, it becomes problematic.

 

Instead of trying to talk it out with Triyun, you came running to the GM's Court immediately, and that poses a problem, one, because you seem to not even care what Triyun has to say, so how is it going to be any different here. Two, it shows there is no real interest in mediation, and you think you are right, so you don't even want to hear what the other side has to say, this was proven quite clearly by you asking for a "tl;dr" version of what Triyun said. If you want to have a war where you're throwing around technology and tactics, and swing it with Triyun, you're going to have to be willing to read those posts, and respond to them in an organized fashion. To be quite honest, speaking from experience, its better when these issues are settled privately and without the use of the GM Court.

 

So instead of complaining how you have consulted others, and skimmed through a bunch of pages on wikipedia and are doing this "very carefully and planned", give a serious effort at private mediation with Triyun a chance before bringing it back here. Members of this community need to be able to talk to one another when they have issues, so I am telling you now, do so. GM's are elected to deal with serious disputes, not be babysitters, and when someone says "tl;dr" in response to someone's legitimate post, that tells me that I am not dealing with a serious dispute.

 

That is my decision, the other GM's are welcome to reverse it, but that is where I stand at the moment.

Edited May 5, 2013 by TheShammySocialist

[Beauty]

I'll send a message to shammy and cent and we'll discuss. But seeing that as rotavele's very first response to how to deal with this was, "COURT", I don't see the required effort at settling it privately on Rotavele's part.   I'll keep this in mind and it will affect my decision accordingly, which at this point is technology be damned, no effort on rot's part means no effort on mine.  Unless Shammy and Cent have something compelling to say about it, that's about where I stand. 

 

Centurius said:

 

 

I'd recommend you to take this up and discuss it with Triyun before requesting a GM ruling. There are methods of mapping, with great accuracy, underground facilities and your state is too young to have built the kind of underground structures that could manage to evade
those. As such unless Triyun uses a method that is way out there the GMs have no role on this matter.

 

With this he was quoting my post about Triyun locating my bunkers. I assumed it had nothing to do with Triyun's disagreement with my roleplay as triyun wasn't complaining previously. However, I am sure with two GMs and a friend of his assuming he said everything with Triyun should be taken up privately, he will change that.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

This is getting out of hand because you do not seem to essentially understand the technology you are throwing around, at the moment, it seems as though you think you have some revolutionary way of fighting and missiles that have "never been thought of" before. To be quite honest, Rotavele, you seem as though you read something on Wikipedia, found it attractive technologically, and then you just throw it up, without understanding how it works. There isn't really anything revolutionary here in tactics so far, that is negating the technological edge that Triyun has, that I can find, at all.

 

Revolutionary for my nation as I had not had that weapon revealed to my nations people yet. The revolution was roleplay for my people, I am not saying it is world revolutionary. However, You seem to think it would be impossible to use drone missiles that are used for tests to replicate the missiles for testing SAM and other systems would not be possible. Do you mind me asking how in the world anyone would be able to tell what
is and is not an actual missile in real life? I do admit I have not researched that scenario specifically, but It would be common sense that Radars don't label them as tests, otherwise that wouldn't test anything with the missile systems. So tell me, how that could not be possible to use them as a deception and I will happily agree with you as I am pretty open minded. I could have just used a load of Anti-Aircraft missiles, yet I thought the roleplay and realism would be better if I act as a debt ridden nation who uses cheaper weaponry and a tactic such as this.

 

"Shoot and scoot" doesn't exactly work when you need to have units stationary so they can actually perform early warning measures (like semi-mobile radar units), its not a viable tactic for anti-air defense forces for the most part. When you also have outstanding situational awareness, it pretty much negates the effect of shoot and scoot anyways, as most can just track defenses as they move. "Shoot and scoot" was a tactic that was typically employed back in the Second World War, for self-propelled artillery, particularly rocket artillery, because of the smoke trails that rocket motors used to give away when launched. Against a first world military nowadays, it has pretty much lost its effectiveness due to battlefield  surveillance assets.

 

So what you are saying is I can't move my military units constantly to avoid being hit by missiles. I did not fire anything early-warning wise and my radar is jammed by Triyun so I wasn't using that? They weren't shooting anything, only moving around basically to avoid getting the location as I had role played seeing the drones in the air via observatories (Large Telescopes). If you are telling me mobile units cannot move, I have to say you are wrong about that as nothing was fired until post attack.

 

Despite  your claim that you are doing this "very carefully and planned", it just seems like you are throwing technology and tactics around without understanding how it (or they) works, or reading up on it completely. While this isn't against the rules, it also comes with the stipulation that when you throw it around at someone, they should be able to ask you what you are doing and how you are doing it, and how it works, to a point where you are actually correct, if you can't dole those answers out because you didn't know in the first place, it becomes problematic.

 

Reading it is how I know it would work. The problem is that you are not asking me anything, but rather accusing me of wrong doing. If you had asked me, "Rotavele, how did you do X?" you call me ignorant and try to insult my intellect. Granted, I did skim through the incoming missile roleplay. I will re-read that one part as I am not 100% sure on that. However, everything other than that was pre-planned and verified as a good idea by numerous role players.

 

Instead of trying to talk it out with Triyun, you came running to the GM's Court immediately, and that poses a problem, one, because you seem to not even care what Triyun has to say, so how is it going to be any different here. Two, it shows there is no real interest in mediation, and you think you are right, so you don't even want to hear what the other side has to say, this was proven quite clearly by you asking for a "tl;dr" version of what Triyun said. If you want to have a war where you're throwing around technology and tactics, and swing it with Triyun, you're going to have to be willing to read those posts, and respond to them in an organized fashion. To be quite honest, speaking fromexperience, its better when these issues are settled  privately and without the use of the GM Court.

 

You ask me to sit there and talk with someone I am at war with, who has banned and kicked me several times from the game channel including tonight, and ask me to trust them? I figured a bully tactic was coming into play and wanted everything well noted and verified by third parties before it was considered valid. Besides, the last time I tried to talk to Triyun when I was at war with him as Svalbard, I told him of my attacks before hand to avoid argument. I had told him he had forgotten a certain weapon and I would easily be able to use a missile to destroy his ships. His response was point blank  "Thanks, Edited". To automatically assume I am intentionally trying to cause you more work, and make your life worse, makes me feel like you could care less honestly.

 

Put yourself in my situation there, Would you discuss what you planned to do or did with someone who edited their post to prevent your attacks previously? If so, please allow me to go to war with you as I am quite low on land myself. I have asked if GMs can read over my Roleplay before I post it, so that there is no argument. I find it would have saved us all time in this situation as well.

 

So instead of complaining how you have consulted others, and skimmed through a bunch of pages on wikipedia and are doing this "very carefully and planned", give a serious effort at private mediation with Triyun a chance before bringing it back here. Members of this community need to be able to talk to one another whenthey have issues, so I am telling you now, do so. GM's are elected to deal with serious disputes, not be babysitters, and when someone says "tl;dr" in response to someone's legitimate post, that tells me that I am not dealing with a serious dispute. That is my decision, the other GM's are welcome to reverse it, but that is where I stand at the moment.

 

You didn't even consider any of the situation before posting this. Last night you didn't even want to read anything about this and wanted Cent to handle this, however I had to keep asking you before you would even help me out as I didn't trust Triyun. Why didn't you bring it up then to talk to my enemies to negotiate before hand with him at that time if you wanted me to?

 

You haven't read it all either or you would know his whole Role play is flawed in the first place. Its all marked classified and Triyun somehow found out what philosophy my Government has been practicing. I have rarely talked to anyone outside of my own personal roleplay as my juche form of government is based on role playing with myself because I don't trust most of the players here and nor would they care to even role play with me unless I am on the opposing side. I am sure now that there is some rule about all forms of government being known throughout the community because god forbid someone take responsibility for their actions around here.

 

Here is the results for every thread on this forum about my nation, If you can tell me where it was publicly noted my monarchy would be focusing on a Juche philosophy, I will be more than happy to admit being wrong about that.

 

No I am not upset or mad about any of this, I just wish to see us learn from our mistakes rather than recreate them. I see this as a learning experience rather than any form of punishment against me. I would also like to note my whole roleplay was based on one Triyun did against me a year ago, himself. Triyun had ships in the Cuban bay to distract my aircraft and have them all fire their missiles, in which he had SuperCheese bring in aircraft to destroy them all after they were un-armed. [Thread Here] I rather did that with drones.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Rotavele

[Captain Enema]

It's not the GM team's job to provide relationship counseling for RPers. If you and Triyun are having issues, that's your problem, not ours.. If you want someone to sit in on an irc discussion that's reasonable, but voluntary on the part of the GMs. None of us exist to help RPers figure out their business. 

 

So..

 

GO TALK TO TRIYUN.

 

Again, be polite, it'll help. 

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tidy Bowl Man

[Beauty]

GO TALK TO TRIYUN.

 

Please read the bolded part of my post. I feel it is the most important part in what your telling me to do.

[Captain Enema]

Besides, the last time I tried to talk to Triyun when I was at war with him as Svalbard, I told him of my attacks before hand to avoid argument. I had told him he had forgotten a certain weapon and I would easily be able to use a missile to destroy his ships. His response was point blank  "Thanks, Edited". To automatically assume I am intentionally trying to cause you more work, and make your life worse, makes me feel like you could care less honestly.

 

Read it and my response is:

 

Go talk to Triyun. 

 

If you need someone to hold your hand, I'm sure you can ask one of the GMs to do it if they are willing. You shouldn't come a runnin' to the GM court without trying to work it out with the other person first. You didn't even try.

[Centurius]

Rotavele throughout your responses you have shown an inherent lack an understanding of even the most fundamental principles of the technology you are using. Observatories do not have the ability to identify a very fast flying low observability object. Even if you knew the exact location of the units beforehand, which is a godmod in itself, you simply wouldn't be able to get any kind of reliable information. TERCOM is a navigation system primarily intended for cruise missile navigation and has no ability at all to identify even a fifth generation steal fighter or for that matter just a fourth generation fighter. The entire concept simply isn't meant for that. And this list goes on, you have failed to answer any of the objections raised or even object to Triyun's own defense. You keep mentioning you consulted with other roleplayers so I'm honestly wondering who told you to do this.

 

As for the form of government; there are various means of intelligence such as SIGINT and HUMINT that would allow one to find out a form of government and it wouldn't require a single spyroll.

 

I honestly recommend you to attempt talking to Triyun because as it stands my ruling isn't going to turn out nice.

[Beauty]

Rotavele throughout your responses you have shown an inherent lack an understanding of even the most fundamental principles of the technology you are using. Observatories do not have the ability to identify a very fast flying low observability object. Even if you knew the exact location of the units beforehand, which is a godmod in itself, you simply wouldn't be able to get any kind of reliable information. TERCOM is a navigation system primarily intended for cruise missile navigation and has no ability at all to identify even a fifth generation steal fighter or for that matter just a fourth generation fighter. The entire concept simply isn't meant for that. And this list goes on, you have failed to answer any of the objections raised or even object to Triyun's own defense. You keep mentioning you consulted with other roleplayers so I'm honestly wondering who told you to do this.

 

As for the form of government; there are various means of intelligence such as SIGINT and HUMINT that would allow one to find out a form of government and it wouldn't require a single spyroll.

 

I honestly recommend you to attempt talking to Triyun because as it stands my ruling isn't going to turn out nice.

 

Oh my god. Ok I am going to give you a challenge. Go outside and look in the sky. You can see basic things in the sky. Go get a telescope. Voila! You can now see things at closer range. Now let me ask you this, your nation is at war. Your property could be the number 1 place to be attacked, you see a plane outside. Would you watch it with your new telescope? :o If it dropped something, you would be able to see that or the smoke trail, right? :o If a plane was subsonic, and didn't break the sound barrier. You would hear that ofcourse, so think of the last time you heard an aircraft break the sound barrier and see it flying. :o Now let me tell you something, Subsonic Missiles.. Travel slower than the speed of sound :O . No this isn't magic. I promise!

 

SIGINT and HUMINT? Its not my form of my government, I am monarchy, practicing a Juche philosophy. I stated a magical rule would appear where he could as stated in my post, seems I am right. I role played my entire nation being cut off to the world. Unless a spy came in or an immigrant escaped, which wasn't roleplayed, he has no idea what my government is secretly planning in their heads. That's the most unrealistic thing I have ever heard of. No one knew North Korea was practicing the Juche Philosophy until it was disclosed. It wasn't even commonly known what the juche philosophy was, until North Korea coined it publicly.

 

On the subject of talking to Triyun if you allow the use of metagaming, then so be it, I just don't want anything said if I do it too, Ok? Upon agreeing to this, I agree to use it.

 

When you refer to me god moding it makes me laugh in a way, what you are saying is that its impossible to attack Triyun.... Do you see the difference here?

 

TERCOM compares maps, so lets say map 1 looks like a circle. Now say map 2 looks like a circle with a dot in the middle. The dot would be hit. It is a cruise missile, but I don't see why it couldn't be used via surface to air if it has those capabilities. Do you?

Edited May 5, 2013 by Rotavele

[Markus Wilding]

You do realize it's near impossibly to observe something like a cruise missile with a telescope right? It's moving far too fast for you to track with your simple civvie telescope and a full-blown observatory won't be able to track it either. You're trying to do things that simply don't work.

[Beauty]

You do realize it's near impossibly to observe something like a cruise missile with a telescope right? It's moving far too fast for you to track with your simple civvie telescope and a full-blown observatory won't be able to track it either. You're trying to do things that simply don't work.

 

If you are watching a plane fly, and it drops something, or even if you didn't see it drop you would see a smoke trail correct? Were not tracking it with a telescope, this is how I saw the attack incoming.

 

I would also like to know how apparently Asteroids can be tracked via Telescope 17,000 Miles from earth for "Experienced Amatuers" but professional astronomers can't see a missile coming 250km away.

 

P.S. according to NASA the asteroid will be flying at 6 Diameters of the Moon per hour. (Diameter of the Moon is 2159 miles) .... You get it by now I would hope.

 

Source:

http://blogs.nasa.gov/cm/blog/Watch%20the%20Skies/posts/post_1360620288049.html

Edited May 5, 2013 by Rotavele

[Tanis777]

First off, you need to see the plane; however, most planes of this generation like F-22s are not suppose to be seen by the visible eye until it's too late.  Also, if the cruise missile is a terrain-hugging one, you'll never see it also, until it's too late. 

 

Let's be military realistic here, using telescopes or naked eye will not help you react fast than whatever is up against you, plain and simple. That is why radar exists, you can try to move and dodge incoming missiles by moving away, but without prior warning, escaping isn't likely and you just got a version of Pearl Harbor on your hands.

[Captain Enema]

Rotavele, it was suggested that you speak with Triyun once by myself. You have been told twice by myself and once by Shammy and again by Centurius to go speak with Triyun. Now you are arguing in the GM court and still you haven't gone to speak with Triyun.

 

 

With this in mind,  I find the merits of your argument are utterly inconsequential and I'm still leaning in favor of Triyun. That leaves Shammy and Cent to give their verdict, if they haven't already and I support whatever technoaddled ruling they managed to brew up between them.

 

In the future, please attempt to work out your issues with the other party rather than going directly to the GM court and starting an argument. 

 

Next issue please. 

 

As for the rest of you, use the OOC thread if you want to pile on with this debate.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tidy Bowl Man

[Triyun]

Rota no.  I won't go over what Cent says because he's 100 percent right.   

 

But on the telescope, I'm sorry but you're seeming to demonstrate a total lack of understanding here and its getting frustrating.

 

When everyone here is saying you're wrong, you're probably wrong.  No you cannot do visual observation of a cruise missile, they have the smallest and quitest jet engines in the world.  You have no way of seeing these planes when they are flying that far from your coast line because they are very very small relative to the sky.  There is no smoke, there are contrails but those are not as big a factor the smaller and more concealed you go.  Plus thats close up observation.  You could not even see a 747 flying 250 kilometers away with the naked eye or any realistic telescope unless you know exactly where to look ahead of time.  

 

A telescope not only does not account for cloud cover, curvature of the earth, or reductions in visibility, but it is myiopic.  You only have a small area of vision and no reference for other areas.  Thus it is virtually impossible to find an aircraft much less a cruise missile.  You RPed instant detection of these missiles.  

 

1)  You've got no point of reference to know where to look in the first place.  

2)  Cruise missiles are incredibly small (less than a meter across when they are coming at you and very narrow)

3)  They fly very very low, making it even harder to see

4)  Telescopes provide a very narrow vision

5)  Once you do see something flying and it gets closer (which would be real close) fast tracking it with visual observation is harder, its the reason that its much harder to visually a car going 80 mph 10 feet from you, then a higher up like a 747 landing at the local airport, which is in reality much faster moving.

 

On top of all this though you have the massive problem of (even if each of your observatories see something, which each would have a p-value of like .000001 per individual incident, so it gets even lower as you go through the hundreds of incidents you say) that gives you no indication where the missile is going within your nation, but you assumed you knew destination and sent word.  The missile is going to be travelling then far faster than you'd be able to figure that out from visual observation, then you'd have to tell the people to pack up the radar, then you'd have to run away.  That five minutes is going to have elapsed 30 minutes ago from the time it takes to do that. You RPed that you knew where they were going and gave orders to flee.

 

Thanks TBM, honestly, Rota you can either listen, or not.  Last night rather than talk about your misunderstandings you asked me if you could use Dino DNA.  You're behaving like a complete troll, and if that's what you want to be I will treat you as such, but you have no knowledge of this stuff it seems and as I told you last night everyone will agree you don't yet you're still fighting.  I'm not going to bend over backwards when you don't acknowledge you are wrong when you clearly are, but if you want to ask how these things actually work I can explain them too you.

 

Lastly, I'll mention all of Rota's prep work occurred in less than 24 hours both IC and OOC.  You'll note when I gave my original proclamation I gave Rota 24 hours to reply, at which point I started military action.  To argue any significant period of time for him to do all this has occurred would be a god mode.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Triyun

[Beauty]

Why would you be a game master if your advice is "Talk to the other Player, I am not listening". You aren't even reading what I am saying anymore by your own admission.

 

I know Game Masters are player-created. I know you are powerless with no one to enforce your rulings, as the fantasy roleplay section is free to everyone who wishes to use it. I know that most of these people only care to read my roleplays when I am on the opposing side. I also only roleplay on my own due to this. I gave you my time of day, and you repay me by a childish tactic of "Lalalala i'm not listening". Maybe you should consider just being a roleplayer instead of anyone to mediate or enforce rules since you obviously do not care to listen to both sides of the argument. You also ignored the fact of every other time I have talked to Triyun he has purposely used it to his own advantage.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Rotavele

[Captain Enema]

As I said about 18 posts or so ago you needed to go speak to the other rper first. It is not my job to provide relationship counseling. It isn't my job to be your mum. It sure as heck is not my job to sort out your problems.

 

The GMs are there for when communications and negotiations have failed completely. 

 

You haven't tried to speak to Triyun at all from the looks of it.

 

and really?

 

Dino DNA?

 

:facepalm:

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tidy Bowl Man