The GM's Court

[Centurius]

Personally, I think of ICBMs as something that goes up and comes down in the same conflict, usually in a very short span of time. Something kind of like this.  However, Triyun claims that this is no different than an ICBM, so I say we allow it on the condition that it is subject to SDI effects.  I'll wait for Justinian to either agree or disagree with that ruling.  However, I do agree that Triyun has full knowledge of the nuclear tests, as it was not labeled as secret in any way, and was in fact spread out over the news, likely ending up on YouTube, Reddit, and possibly 4chan in a matter of hours.

Current ICBMs aren't subject to SDI's, they only cover nukes.

[KaiserMelech Mikhail]

Well then, as long as this weapon only does as much damage as a normal ICBM, I see no problem with it.

[Triyun]

Exactly what Cent said, Melech.  You really need to learn the rules about that basic a thing.

 

Also Ikrolm you're mistaken.  Fractional orbit means fractional orbit.  It went up over India when through a fractional orbit and then over the south pole and up, it didn't complete a full rotation.  I spelled that out because it also allows no other power to detect it by radar as I control the flight path for most of the way.  I admit I have the theoretical technology to leave something in orbit (so do a lot of people) but so can an SLV/ICBM if setup properly, something I referenced the USAF pointing out about Iran in my previous post.  Ballistic missiles and space launch vehicles are the same technology, its how you steer in mid course further up that's the issue. 

 

Rods from god are different issues, in that they are in permanent LEO.  I never did so.  Also the reason I'm the only one who can detect most of this has a lot too to do with geography of the strike, rather than anything else.  Control antarctica and there isn't much between it and the target.  South America lacks advanced countries with the exception of Chile who'd have very little warning.  Radars can't peer through the Earth's crust.  If you want to do space track as well as the Tianxia-Athenian joint space track network, you're going to need to send in military forces to expand to where you cover most of the globe.

 

Also Aggron, you didn't use counter UAV measures because counter UAV measures aren't a thing.  That post was a one liner of none-sense.  If you had posted you fired a SAM missile at the plane, or tried to jam its reciever that'd be a thing.  But instead you posted a big ball of red angry OOC text with one line of what amounts to IC drivel.  Also my satellites are always orbitting.  I've stated this a lot.  You really need to understand that you cannot behave like a spoiled North Korean style nation, then go rage OOC and try to god mode.  If you don't understand tech, don't arm provocatively, you won't get shot.  Its simple.  If you do this stuff your nations will be razed to the ground one after another.

 

Also you really need to explain how you instantly go from a nuclear device test to a weaponized force of ICBMs.  Also those ICBMs would have to be liquid fuel to do the type of targeting you did, which means they take a while to fuel up, and you rarely keep them underground so they'd be exposed on launchers.  Also you're going to have to explain how you're tracking Eva's moving fleet.  

 

Is this a fair fight, no, but really this is basic rules and science.

 

Edit:  Oh yeah and in regards to information, it doesn't matter whether its an internet protocol, a radio broadcast, or a TV broadcast, its got nothing to do with getting leaked.  Its the fact that once you put something out there like that, it travels around the world and can be intercepted by another nation.  You need to RP significant measures (I originally had encryption but editted that cause that's not enough), to protect a communication like that and certainly you can't do it internal to the whole nation.

Edited October 31, 2013 by Triyun

[iKrolm]

Exactly what Cent said, Melech.  You really need to learn the rules about that basic a thing.
 
Also Ikrolm you're mistaken.  Fractional orbit means fractional orbit.  It went up over India when through a fractional orbit and then over the south pole and up, it didn't complete a full rotation.  I spelled that out because it also allows no other power to detect it by radar as I control the flight path for most of the way.  I admit I have the theoretical technology to leave something in orbit (so do a lot of people) but so can an SLV/ICBM if setup properly, something I referenced the USAF pointing out about Iran in my previous post.  Ballistic missiles and space launch vehicles are the same technology, its how you steer in mid course further up that's the issue.

I'd like to see a source that claims it's possible to transition from a geosynchronous orbit to an unstable orbit over the south pole in a single pass with a midcourse vehicle, because that's a pretty incredible a velocity change. No, that wasn't clear from your post and I'd be surprised if it can be done. Edited October 31, 2013 by iKrolm

[High Emperor Aggron]

Personally, I think of ICBMs as something that goes up and comes down in the same conflict, usually in a very short span of time. Something kind of like this.  However, Triyun claims that this is no different than an ICBM, so I say we allow it on the condition that it is subject to SDI effects.  I'll wait for Justinian to either agree or disagree with that ruling.  However, I do agree that Triyun has full knowledge of the nuclear tests, as it was not labeled as secret in any way, and was in fact spread out over the news, likely ending up on YouTube, Reddit, and possibly 4chan in a matter of hours.

There is no internet in Bolivia thats a freedom not afforded.

[Triyun]

I'd like to see a source that claims it's possible to transition from a geosynchronous orbit to an unstable orbit over the south pole in a single pass with a midcourse vehicle, because that's a pretty incredible a velocity change. No, that wasn't clear from your post and I'd be surprised if it can be done.

 

When did I mention going to Geo?  Show me the post. I don't always take things to Geo on it.

[High Emperor Aggron]

Also Aggron, you didn't use counter UAV measures because counter UAV measures aren't a thing.  That post was a one liner of none-sense.  If you had posted you fired a SAM missile at the plane, or tried to jam its reciever that'd be a thing.  But instead you posted a big ball of red angry OOC text with one line of what amounts to IC drivel.  Also my satellites are always orbitting.  I've stated this a lot.  You really need to understand that you cannot behave like a spoiled North Korean style nation, then go rage OOC and try to god mode.  If you don't understand tech, don't arm provocatively, you won't get shot.  Its simple.  If you do this stuff your nations will be razed to the ground one after another.
 
Also you really need to explain how you instantly go from a nuclear device test to a weaponized force of ICBMs.  Also those ICBMs would have to be liquid fuel to do the type of targeting you did, which means they take a while to fuel up, and you rarely keep them underground so they'd be exposed on launchers.  Also you're going to have to explain how you're tracking Eva's moving fleet.  
 
Is this a fair fight, no, but really this is basic rules and science.

God mode you fucking dick? i clearly stated that was a mispost to Eva if you'd read. I'm not arming provactively, you're just a cunt who can't deal with people who disagree with you. I never fucking said anything about Satellites, plus I can fuel the damn missiles if I want to in fact I'll do it right now. Also I had been building up missiles since I started, if I want to build a nuclear stockpile sure as hell I'm going to. You're the fucktard who ruins the game for people. It's people like you triyun, you take a fun game and drive it into the ground with your bullshit. I'm not behaving like a north korean nation, and even if I did thats up to me because this is a fucking fantasy setting. So Fuck you, Fuck your friends and Fuck what you're doing to cnrp.

[iKrolm]

When did I mention going to Geo?  Show me the post. I don't always take things to Geo on it.

Then the weapons are moving at just under 2 km/s, still flying in the wrong direction, and doing their best to fall into an Ocean now too because they weren't released into any orbit at all. I thought Geosynchronous would be easier, personally. Edited October 31, 2013 by iKrolm

[Evangeline Anovilis]

God mode you fucking dick? i clearly stated that was a mispost to Eva if you'd read. I'm not arming provactively, you're just a cunt who can't deal with people who disagree with you. I never fucking said anything about Satellites, plus I can fuel the damn missiles if I want to in fact I'll do it right now. Also I had been building up missiles since I started, if I want to build a nuclear stockpile sure as hell I'm going to. You're the fucktard who ruins the game for people. It's people like you triyun, you take a fun game and drive it into the ground with your bullshit. I'm not behaving like a north korean nation, and even if I did thats up to me because this is a fucking fantasy setting. So Fuck you, Fuck your friends and Fuck what you're doing to cnrp.

1. Indeed you said it was a mispost. Though you may actually go fix it, I guess. But you're right that you stated that.

2. What is acquiring nukes, but arming proactively?

3. North Korea would not exist if it had not more powerful countries backing it. Sadly if you'd think you can be the equivalent of the DPRK, there is no equivalent of such back up for you. And I hate to bring it up, but if someone then goes and kicks the door in, as it would happen if North Korea would be on its own, then that's not too unreasonable. Fantasy setting or not.

4. Please refrain from using such vulgar expressions in the GM Court, thanks. We arbitrate and try to make fair rulings, but we aren't some garbage dump.

5. The liquid fuel problem Triyun pointed out I see as a valid concern. While I'm not making a ruling on this, I still state my personal opinion, which is that even if you are frustrated and regardless of the circumstances, the fuelling will have to take its time, unless you can explain how you get around this, (without swearing).

[High Emperor Aggron]

okay sorry, on my phone but i most certainly can fuel the missiles by using the subway, specificaly the Fac11 facilities which are the production centre/priming stations for my country, if I want to fire them I'd of already fuelled them, the first "test" that triyun referred to was a contained detonation of a nuclearbomb, My staff which is very much alive dude yo never  being above ground has continously been making missiles, just recently I "announced" my nuclear capability when I'd been woking on it ahead. Themissiles, specifically Chico Alto are all prepped and would only require fire codes.

edit;: I modt definitely keep my warheads underground until I need them.
 
it is not arming proactively but  deterrent I now intend on using to deter.

Edited October 31, 2013 by High Emperor Aggron

[Evangeline Anovilis]

The issue is, the type of liquid fuel used in this kind of system won't be storable over long periods of time. I think it's due to the propellant being rather aggressive and thus damaging the rocket motor if stored over extented periods.

[High Emperor Aggron]

I promise to use them soon or dismantle them later then. It doesnt matter much to me if they become unstable. I know for a fact they will not be stored on an extended period of time

[Zoot Zoot]

Look here is my two cents on this nuke thing.

CNRP has never actively pursued the maintenance role play of a nuclear stockpile, which invalidates your point Eva about damage to the rocket motor, even if it is true in RL. It has never been CNRP policy to RP out the pre-launch process of a nuclear weapons, most people just do it for flavour if anything.

 

Triyun and Cent have both previously, and so have other nations I might add, role played extensive intel gathering programs and passive intel gathering, now normally, its just good sport to state in a post that a certain country is having a little more attention paid to it than others for the sake of clarification in situations like this, but it isn't required by the rules and/or guidelines.

 

Aggron, just calm down, make a concise argument, spell check it, and lay it out point by point, and if you don't be rude when posting, I am pretty damn sure that Triyun will respond with a point by point explanation in simple English for you to understand mate.  As much as me and him don't see eye to eye, he has always explained stuff when asked.

[Triyun]

Then the weapons are moving at just under 2 km/s, still flying in the wrong direction, and doing their best to fall into an Ocean now too because they weren't released into any orbit at all. I thought Geosynchronous would be easier, personally.

They have a booster to move them into LEO, as has been referenced multiple times.

 

@ Zoot: 

 

If he wants to just have an existing nuclear arsenal thats on solid state fueld ICBMs sitting in silos with pretargeting on Inertial guidance there is little need to do maintenance RP, but that's not what he's doing.  He's not doing that though.  He needs to mate the warhead to the rockets which requires a lot of time and space, then he needs to fuel the missile which takes a long time.  And Eva's right, liquid rocket fuel is nasty nasty stuff.  Super acidic, super toxic.  As for putting it in a subway, you can't fit ICBMs in subways nor do you want to be fueling a missile in a subway anyways because of the issue of toxic leaks:  http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com

 

These challenges are both practical and reasonable, as well as something you'd have to account for in a war plan.  

Edited November 1, 2013 by Triyun

[iKrolm]

They have a booster to move them into LEO, as has been referenced multiple times.

So in a Low Earth Orbit, which ICBMs do not achieve, the Tianxian weapons are amazingly similar to space-based weapons. Edited November 1, 2013 by iKrolm

[Triyun]

Yes they are but meets the sole requirement of transiting space rather than being stationed in.

[High Emperor Aggron]

They have a booster to move them into LEO, as has been referenced multiple times.

 
@ Zoot: 
 
If he wants to just have an existing nuclear arsenal thats on solid state fueld ICBMs sitting in silos with pretargeting on Inertial guidance there is little need to do maintenance RP, but that's not what he's doing.  He's not doing that though.  He needs to mate the warhead to the rockets which requires a lot of time and space, then he needs to fuel the missile which takes a long time.  And Eva's right, liquid rocket fuel is nasty nasty stuff.  Super acidic, super toxic.  As for putting it in a subway, you can't fit ICBMs in subways nor do you want to be fueling a missile in a subway anyways because of the issue of toxic leaks:  http://www.atlasmissilesilo.com
 
These challenges are both practical and reasonable, as well as something you'd have to account for in a war plan.

Triyun its not an actual subway and to be so dense as to think it is is foolish. Again its called the subway, its an underground military project, a number of fortresses connected by underground infrastructure Both military and civilian

[Lord Zephyr]

Yes they are but meets the sole requirement of transiting space rather than being stationed in.

I would be fine with this if we were given an opportunity to shoot it down before it lands like any other missile.

[Triyun]

You would if you actually had the geography of sensors to do it sadly you dint

[Lord Zephyr]

You would if you actually had the geography of sensors to do it sadly you dint

Well if you would let somebody else become a global power then I might :S

[Triyun]

I'm happy to let them if they earn it and take risks, just like I did you lazy bum.

[Lestari]

How to become a global power:

1. Take risks.
2. Get crushed by Tianxia and its allies.

[Vidarr the Terrible]

I'm happy to let them if they earn it and take risks, just like I did you lazy bum.

 

Triyun sounds like a baby boomer.

[Triyun]

OOC:  My nuclear facilities again are not above ground nor are they cratered. My radar is underground hooked up to thousand of nodes which are traditional ping-return's. I know it can't see F-5's but hell.

Ok so as has been said countless times you have to actually RP things being under ground, second of all you can crater entrances because they are entrances.  Third of all you can't put radar underground, it has to be above ground to create returns, and also a very spread out low return radar array creats very little returns vs single large radars for tracking stealth objects.  However, that's less of a deal if you say that you can't track the F-5s, of course you just did that.

 

 

Before the F-5s even made it into Bolivian airspace, The by the SAMS situated around the borders would open fire, their missiles tracking down the F-5s as they sped into the NFZ. To mask them however Short emp bursts would be emitted over the entirety of the U.R.B. via concealed nodes which linked to the main infrastructure of the Armed Forces of United Bolivia rendering the ground unseeable for moments at a time after the missiles had found their targets and finished them.

 

EMP bursts don't really work that way, you have to hit targets with EMPs to mask them.  Also again you have no real way of tracking the F-5s especially cause you never launched any high altitude sensors.

 

While the attacks that had been foolishly launched by Tianxians armies would begin, the four squadrons of F-22 Fighter Jets would begin intercepting. Luckily they had been launched prior to the attack and began their ambush in earnest. Descending on the unsuspecting F-5s they'd open fire with IR missiles designed to home in on the infrared signatures emitted by the jet engines.

 

Never RPed launching the Raptors ahead of time, and you're now saying raptors are more stealthy, if the F-5s are unsuspecting.  I don't think so.  Also raptors don't have an EO/IR sensor on them yet.  So you don't have that with your 300 tech.

 

A Mobile ICBM would then begin activation sequences to fire upon the Galapogos, Chico Alto their weapon. Though they had not left the safety of the subway, an underground fortress which connected each military base through titanium blast doors, and tunnels which stretched one end of Bolivia to the next.

 

Again can't move things in subway something you're ignoring.  You never RPed a subway system and its well established you need to RP it out and have a fall out shelter system wonder, something you lack to be the kind of big size you're talking about.  If you're talking about an actual subway, you can't fit missiles or planes in one.

 

Seriously can you try instead of just raging, you're just going to lose raging ridiculousness.  Lets save the tango and go to you actually constructing real posts.

[High Emperor Aggron]

Ok so as has been said countless times you have to actually RP things being under ground, second of all you can crater entrances because they are entrances.  Third of all you can't put radar underground, it has to be above ground to create returns, and also a very spread out low return radar array creats very little returns vs single large radars for tracking stealth objects.  However, that's less of a deal if you say that you can't track the F-5s, of course you just did that.

 

 

 

EMP bursts don't really work that way, you have to hit targets with EMPs to mask them.  Also again you have no real way of tracking the F-5s especially cause you never launched any high altitude sensors.

 

 

Never RPed launching the Raptors ahead of time, and you're now saying raptors are more stealthy, if the F-5s are unsuspecting.  I don't think so.  Also raptors don't have an EO/IR sensor on them yet.  So you don't have that with your 300 tech.

 

 

Again can't move things in subway something you're ignoring.  You never RPed a subway system and its well established you need to RP it out and have a fall out shelter system wonder, something you lack to be the kind of big size you're talking about.  If you're talking about an actual subway, you can't fit missiles or planes in one.

 

Seriously can you try instead of just raging, you're just going to lose raging ridiculousness.  Lets save the tango and go to you actually constructing real posts.

 

To the first point, you'd never see the entrances. I have rp'd it underground you didn't read. I can put radar underground, and put nodes above. I know how a radar works.

 

To the emp bursts okay. I didn't know that.

 

To the raptors yes I did, when I started my NFZ in my main thread I stated I had launched them. I didn't say more stealthy, I said they'd attempt stealth or the likes, I also got them from Paraguay. I know I don't have them with 300 tech.

 

 

Again can't move things in subway something you're ignoring.  You never RPed a subway system and its well established you need to RP it out and have a fall out shelter system wonder, something you lack to be the kind of big size you're talking about.  If you're talking about an actual subway, you can't fit missiles or planes in one.

 

To this in particular, nowhere in the rules does it say I need a fallout shelter. Also for the fifth time it's called the 'subway' its not a subway with trains and whatnot. I continually rp'd it, but because you feel like being ignorant won't read my thread doesn't mean it wasn't rp'd prior. I've never been talking about an actual subway. I can move things because there are tunnels, not single man tunnels but larger, much larger Show me where it is well established about needing a fallout shelter and I'll retcon it. But until then, its neither cratered nor is it needing the FOS.

 

Seriously can you try instead of just raging, you're just going to lose raging ridiculousness.  Lets save the tango and go to you actually constructing real posts.

Can you make a post without being a condescending dick to people? That was a "real" post, just because I don't know as much about military technology as you, does not give you the right to be an ass about it.