WorldConqueror

That's ok, I started it on that track with my mighty Jack Diorno crack, which was a result of the tone of the thread, not anything against you personally. So I apologize as well.

It's not irrelevant just because you miss my point. My point was that you are acting like I was conceding your point, which I wasn't. Thus why I pointed out the multiple 'ifs' in my post. I'm 50% sure you are not seriously this stupid. EDIT: Also hence why I said those posts aren't contradictory. You can try and paint it as such all you like, but it's not what I said.

I'm perfectly happy with letting ONOS RIP. I couldn't care less about ONOS. They spied, they died, end of story.

Way to miss the point. To quote myself: I helpfully bolded the relevant parts.

Your going against your own argument now and agreeing with what I originally said, nice work. As for why the NPO would still attack GPA after you forced them out of the #1 spot if it meant taking a PR hit? Well, why would NPO hit OV if they new it meant their own demise? I'm afraid in my case, Pacifican logic does not compute. Those two posts are not contradictory.

And if the war was all about taking the top spot, we already had it. Your reason is redundant. If GPA was losing members by the droves due to the threat of war, we could have kept the top spot easily, even if we weren't growing faster than them. Little war scare every month, GPA collectively &%$#@ pants, loses members. If we are so calculating and scheming, why wouldn't we do that instead of taking the PR hit of hitting a so-called neutral alliance? I don't know my alliance's history? I said we were on top before the war. I was right. Even a normal Pacifican grunt has more cause for pride than the creator of the fabled Abortion Disco.

How is that e-lawyering? That's fact. Just because it doesn't fit your 'evil Pacifica' mindset, where everything we do is unjustified and a crime against humanity, means it's a trivial detail. And yes, it gives me great pleasure to show all you people wearing those anti-Pacifican blinkers that are so very popular that we are justified, we are right, and just because you screwed up and got destroyed you can't accept that. Don't get me wrong, I like playing the monster. But I also like to prove you moralists wrong.

Oh sorry, I'm ignorant because I don't agree with the mighty Jack Diorno. I know what happened. I was there. We overtook GPA before the war. My point stands.

You don't think after GWIII that the Initiative had hegemony? Oooook. GUARD posed no military threat, and as you said it was a neutral bloc. GUARD had very little political sway. GUARD was a joke. BS because you were on the receiving end of them?

But they weren't deleted, he said so himself. They were moved. ONOS still had them in their possession. You are delusional if you think GUARD was a threat to anything.

We did overtake them. That isn't even refuted by GPA. We were #1 when the war started, and had been for a while. I don't remember the date of the war, but there are stats that prove I'm correct. If you really don't believe me I suppose I can go and dig them up. I addressed your 'ideological threat' point before. Just because some of those allies turned around and stabbed us in the back does not mean there is anything wrong with our ideology. If anything it proves its superiority, and they had to ally themselves with us and adopt our ideology to some degree in order to both survive and orchestrate their attack. If they had have been caught they would have been killed. Anyone acting against Pacifica is inviting an attack. We protect ourselves, forcefully if need be. We make no apologies for that.

So you admit ONOS was in possession in our guides. Thankyou. If ONOS had informed us and let us deal with Da Choice then, ONOS may still be alive. Instead you sat on the information, and then Da Choice himself revealed it to us. Fairly easy to see why he was given amnesty in that case. You hid the secret, and he atoned by revealing it.

Why don't you think about what you are saying. It may be inconceivable for you that our allies aren't puppets, that everything they do isn't somehow our fault. But surprise! It's true. Shock horror. You gave no evidence that Kuru was taking orders from anyone. You said the messages were sent by tiny nations. I gave an alternate explanation that didn't involve a Pacifican puppet master but of course you disregard that. You then go through the complaints that make up the CB. Individually, yes, they probably don't make a strong CB. But all together? Ever hear of the straw that broke the camel's back? You singled Lord Swampy out as the reason that our CB was unacceptable. EDIT: clarity

There is a thread called the Amazing Sanction Race. Our ideology has done perfectly well for us in our own affairs and in our ability to attract allies. I don't think neutrality or incompetent and inefficient democracy were ever a threat to the Pacifican way.

You ask me if it's hard to write the such I do, and then come out with a post like that? I'm sure there's others that could rip nice big holes in it, but I'll give it a go. First of all, our guides are our property. Doesn't matter if you already have the information, or if the guides are completely wrong, or what. They are ours, you took them, we punish you. Next, you admit you weren't high government in ONOS, but you somehow try to say that being #2 in Vanguard makes you an authority on what happened? Explain that to me. You say ONOS was attacked because you and GUARD were a potential future threat. You then go on to say that GUARD were incompetent cowards, who were not interested in improving their military capabilities, and had no ambitions except to survive. Sounds pretty scary. And then you try to claim that ONOS was going to first strike nuke all nuclear capable nations in WUT. Really? How the hell did ONOS get so many nukes and nuclear capable nations?

Oh come on. You can not be trying to tell me that GUARD posed any kind of threat to the Initiative. The very notion is ridiculous. GATO is some kind of military superpower? Since when? We were pretty much always stronger than them, and even if not in total NS, we had the stronger upper tier. Why am I wrong? Because they were attacked? They screwed up. Like I said before, if alliances screw up and stumble into the crosshairs, are we supposed to give them a pat on the back and say "better luck next time"? I think not. I'm not the one trying to say that GPA was attacked because they were number one when they weren't number one. >_>

Like I said, we had already passed GPA. We were growing faster than them. Doesn't that make your point moot?

Ah, and the truth comes out. An ex-GPA member. You really think it was about you passing us in the rankings? We repassed you in peacetime. We were growing faster than you. We were back on top for a while before the war broke out. So that argument doesn't really work. FAN was redeclared on because of widespread violations of the peace terms. Again, you can say you wouldn't have declared war for it, and more power to you, but we were absolutely justified in doing so. It wasn't about being secure or bored. It was about acting to protect Pacifica and its interests.

I described the above situations in favour of Pacifica, because Pacifica was in the right in those situations. And are you serious? ONOS posed a great threat to our domination? I don't think anyone could argue that with a straight face. GPA is an alliance of hippies, they are the last alliance that would be on the list to be taken out for realpolitik. GATO has never been a military threat to Pacifica. At most they were a kind of figurehead of the democratic alliances. FAN is the only one that is somewhat conceivable, until you look at the war and see that all their allies turned against them. You can't rule the world alone.

Why is that inconceivable? It is, but that doesn't necessarily mean Pacifica or Valhalla had anything to do with it. Kuru may have organized it himself in order to secure the Presidency. From the wiki: * Ignoring an insulting IRC name aimed at Bilrow, the official responsible was later expelled from GPA. * Valid editing a post by Dilber * GPA officials lying about punishing Valid (Valid was later punished and expelled. * Valid laughing about not being punished * Valid lying about Dilber swearing * A GPA member aiding a member of GOONS, and not kicked till almost 3 weeks later, with GPA lying to IRON about putting this member on trial for a week. It was later revealed that this was largely due to inactivity among key GPA government members. * LSF fiasco - Threatening people who had left LSF long before anything happened, threatening SPQR and TOOL if they didn't give up people who were full members of either alliances but had left LSF within a few months of the problems with LSF and the GPA * Valid deleting but being let back in under his new nation. He was not placed on the NPO ZI or perma ZI list, nor was the issue of his permanent fate resolved because he resigned from GPA and deleted before it could be determined. * Offering protection to Lord Swampy a nation on the Valhalla perma zi list. It turns out he was only offered affiliate status, which doesn't mean he was offered protection from anyone's ZI lists. He was expelled from GPA as soon as GPA found out he was on NPO's and Valhalla's perma-ZI lists. (Both groups did not inform the GPA, and came in yelling about the acceptance) Hardly all about Lord Swampy. You are putting the cart before the horse. Just because he went to a Continuum alliance after GPA does not prove that he was working for them beforehand.

I'm like Peter Pan! What 'simple facts' are you telling me? That there was a pity party over terms? That we tried to join Frostbite? They aren't 'simple facts'. That's unsubstantiated bull%&$#.

Oh ok. So people saying that ridiculous terms are ridiculous, is a pity party because the terms were intended for Pacifica. Gotcha. Read our terms. No treaties without approval from Karma. If we can't sign Red Dawn, why would we be allowed to join Frostbite? Also, I really, really doubt we would have seriously tried to get into Frostbite. You have to be joking.

Oh right, I forgot that we are the puppet masters and our allies have no independent thoughts or control over their actions. Silly me. Valhalla did it, so we did it. Right. Outside resources? Lord Swampy was only part of the CB. As for where Kuru went after GPA, that's neither here nor there.

No, no they weren't. The incidents were not fabricated. You can say that you may not have declared war over them, but the incidents happened. Chris Kaos was the one responsible for GATO being such a thorn in Pacifica's side at least since the GPW. It was a surrender term that he not be allowed back. He was, and the surrender was revoked. The FAN war was absolutely justified, and the reasons for it should be so well known that I shouldn't have to repeat them. But I will if I have to. ONOS was spying on us. They paid the price, like many before them. And GPA was a combination of government incompetence, provocation of Pacifica, and violating the DoN. So maybe you would not have declared war. But we were certainly justified in doing so.

Complaints? Pity party? Where? Give me an example. Calling out people for disregarding treaties? Yes. If that's complaining then gee CN is full of whiners, what with all the complaining directed at ODN, eh? Where did I say anything about becoming a member of Frostbite? You like to put words in people's mouths, don't you? Or maybe you just don't understand the English language. My condolences. EDIT: Also, I don't want your 10 foot pole anywhere near me or the NPO.