[You really want change?]

It was Dopp's post that made me 'ugh', then Random's... I guess I'm a masochist. But at least you guys are having fun.

OOC: Not mine? God you suck.

I will now proceed to throw down my gauntlet towards all Jedi to bring it. Let me show you the ineffectiveness of your...Ineffectuality. Or whatever.

[Declaration of Moral Support!]

This declaration of support of Sileath strikes me as a profound and utter renunciation of your previous beliefs.

My faith in Francesca has been shattered.

[I have a dream.]

You know...Based on what I remember of NPO's viceroys (I wasnt around for GATO's), the alliances that had them imposed on them actually wound up being all the better for them...NAAC actually had some efficient government structure (and had it lifted within a month...Although they always hated us from the outset), Legion apparently loved Zha, and ONOS considered Ivan their Godfather for awhile.

I really dont see how a breach of sovereignty in order to appoint an overseer is worse than crippling an alliance's ability to function in the most basic nature of an alliance; The ability to provide a safe, stable location to facilitate nation growth.

However, talking about how "At least the terms arent viceroys" isnt really a valid point when Viceroys are nothing but a Pipe Dream now. Oh well. Feel free to call me on this line of thought, Ill be happy to defend it.

[Declaration of war.]

The nation of Chronorica shall shower all attackers with airdrops of booze and Sith Pamphlets.

"The Sith, an alternative lifestyle that brings out the best in you."

[ooc]Its like Atkins, only not a scam[/ooc]

[You really want change?]

And what of those that find it easy to live in the shadows of greater men?

Easier to stab them in the back and take their place actually...

...

Shouldnt have said that.

A tenet of the Jedi Code is the world around you is all interconnected and, more importantly, interdependent, in a never-ending cycle of balance. It is by that that one understands that this leads to a balanced, objective, and realistic view of existence. Ignoring the world is not the Jedi way, understanding it is at the very core of who we are. It is only through that understanding is the truth revealed.

So what do you "Do" with the truth then? I still find my abbreviated description of the Jedi decision making process was accurate.

[You really want change?]

Hippies don't wear lightsabers.

Now I can see your mistake on thinking it takes millennium to come to a decision. I wouldn't expect one who simply lashes out as their emotions suit them to understand the simple yet difficult art that is control over oneself. Once you realize that, you also realize you don't need a committee dissecting an issue for centuries, all it takes is the Force and a clear detached mind.

So I see maintaining control over ones self means ignoring the world around you? Naive.

[An Ultimatum to iFOK]

People keep letting RV into their alliance too.

Hes considerably more entertaining than Sileath.

[Declaration of War]

So you have grown thicker skins and grown up?

We're Sith. We dont get mad...We butcher folks with Lightsabers.

...

Ok so maybe we do get mad a bit.

[You really want change?]

You use your passion to fulfill your appetites not to move forward. Only by understanding your emotions and putting them aside will one ever achieve inner peace and it is only through inner peace will one ever truly move forward. It is that inner peace that will allow the Jedi to always be relevant for there always will be people that understand only through understanding one's self and keeping objectivity will true freedom from self be reached.

And I'll have you know the showers at the Temple work quite well and my robes were laundered just yesterday, thankyouverymuch.

A hippy Jedi claiming to have showered? Now thats believable.

So, out of curiosity, what do you intend on doing with this freedom, anyway? Reflect on how the world could be better for a few thousand years, and then after coming up with a possible solution after millenia, you finally decide to take it to committee to be discussed for another few centuries before ultimately deciding that intervention leads to the dark side and ultimately refuse to do anything?

[You really want change?]

If you want to be technical, it's a statement of your opinion and not fact. You say you can overcome all obstacles, eh? How do you overcome the obstacle of hatred that is the Sith way?

Because its not an obstacle, its a means for strengthening and improving oneself. Unlike you filthy Jedi who are ineffectual and suppress your emotions, we Sith use our passion to move ever forward. That is why we will change the world, and you shall be irrelevant.

[You really want change?]

Force of will or force of arrogance?

My will is greater than yours, a statement of fact, not arrogance.

That will allows me to overcome all obstacles.

[You really want change?]

A pier? How random an idea.

Though, I recall hearing of a past Sith lord that used that very ability to stay alive. He would have probably lived eternally fed by his own hatred and self loathing. In the end, however, he learned that the fire that was prolonging his life was also the very thing that made him miserable. Instead of enjoying his prolonged life he felt trapped in a prison and hated every second of it.

Just throwing that out there.

I do it through sheer force of my being better than you.

Self-Loathing is for the weak.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

Feel free to read Delta's blog. If you don't want to believe him, that's your choice.

You cant reference something that isnt common knowledge and expect everyone to know it automatically.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

I'm glad to see you've resorted to beating your chest as ES is so fond of saying.

It's brave to play the opportunist card considering the convenient timing of this decree. Why didn't you immediately post a decree against the formation of Karma since we're all such back-stabbing hypocrites? Very convenient timing...

Im not Grub...And to be fair, I have been calling out hypocrisy when I see it.

[ooc]I kind of made a thread in the OOC portion of the OWF actually using one person as an example...Protip: If you're going to accuse someone of holding their tongue about calling folks out until the timing is convenient, dont direct it at me. Half the people in this thread had something to say about that particular "decree" of mine. [/ooc]

And the timing of this post apparently lines up with some anniversary of the Polars. Frankly ive lost track due to my returning to this world only two months ago.

I don't recall Sparta claiming the moral high ground, I think you're doing that. You cast stones from the sidelines. And just to clarify, I am not criticizing your neutrality, I am criticizing your willingness to suddenly get involved by publically slandering other alliances. You could have gotten involved diplomatically even but instead you opted to grand-stand. If anyone is making a play for the moral high ground, it is this decree.

Im not a Diplomat. Im actually a part of the NSO's media staff, which is considered Internal Affairs. I dont see why you're addressing that comment at me.

I have not responded to much of what we have already been beating to death over the past while. I'm sick of the "no, you!"s and I feel like I am paddling in circles and you are my oar.

From my perspective, the position is reversed...And you're not an oar, but a paddle. And you're being used to haze George the Great, which I frankly feel is a far more accurate image to describe whats going on here.

[You really want change?]

Ah, so the quick and easy path of poisoning yourself is your alternative. Well, the offer stands when your body gives out from the constant abuse you will be putting it through.

We Sith can keep our bodies moving through sheer strength of Will and the Force. It shall never give out.

Even if you drop a pier on me.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

You too, I see, drank the kool aid to get a chance to score points with your buddies in the back ground. Of course I know you well enough to know how you like to ignore inconvenient evidence and jump straight to fantastic conclusions.

EDIT: spelling

Evidence?

If Sparta/TOP/etc have provided any evidence to rebut Grub's OP, I frankly must have missed it. I also don't recall any conclusions Ive jumped straight to in the face of such unseen evidence.

Although, to be fair, it's not Kool-Aid, its Hawaiian Punch. I can see why you wouldnt be able to tell the difference, but thats not really important right now. Besides, Im sure someone like you can do more to refute my posts than a simple "snip" and dismissal.

[You really want change?]

/Oh, and if you're bound and determined to bash your heads against the wall, I can offer lessons on healing trances. Barring that, perhaps some Wookies might be better suited to the task.

Nah, Sith alchemy has made my skull nigh-indestructible. I dont need your weak healing arts designed to make up for your weak body's shortcomings.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

Ok, last response to you. You seem to have an axe to grind with Sparta ever since Grub and GtG butted heads. Surprise. Let that be a lesson to all who question Grub, right?

We didn't identify with NPO's enemies, who are you talking about when you say NPO's enemies? heh. George said that we had begun contemplating what we would do if NPO continued to ignore us and got more aggressive. That's not a plot... it's considering the state of your relations.

Identifying with "Karma" in the present context isnt identifying with the NPO's enemies?

What would you call Karma, then? As they're not some kind of a bloc, or group of friends, or hold any other common thread then wanting to destroy the NPO-led Hegemony...Which by definition, kind of makes them the NPO's enemies. So....You also just said that this wasnt about OV, but about the fact that the NPO didnt love you enough?

Really? You decided to betray your former ally over communication issues. Thats one of the most laughable excuses ive frankly ever heard.

There is no way you can tell me that not being informed that an ally was going to declare a war during peace negotiations that you had already stated you would not support would not make any alliance want to cancel their treaties. You can't just dismiss that as irrelevant. The only way cancellation with NPO was inevitable is if they continued to ignore us and get aggressive towards alliance we didn't feel had earned their aggression. As it turns out, we didn't have to wait long because they did exactly those things and declared on OV. You may think it is irrelevant but it sure as hell was not irrelevant for us and I would say it wasn't irrelevant for many people on Planet Bob. Unless you consider the entire war irrelevant. heh.

No, but George saying that Sparta identified with Karma months before an incident like the one your describing was even hinted at occurring pretty much makes that line of argument baseless.

As I had just said; If it wasnt OV, you guys would have sold NPO out for another convenient reason. OV was just an incredibly convenient one that came up now.

You still have failed to address who we conspired with and why you seem to be targetting only Sparta with this slander about betrayal. When would it have been acceptable to cancel in your eyes? Oh wait, you're not in Sparta nor are you in NPO, so you really have no idea what was going on...

Oh no, what Grub and pretty much everyone else is pointing out is that it isnt just about Sparta, although you lot have been the most brazen about it, but it's about all sorts of Continuum/1V alliances selling NPO and the Hegemony out when it became convenient, and then attempting to claim the moral High Ground about why the NPO deserves this and that when frankly, you lot are just about as responsible as them, and a hell of a lot more responsible than a couple of other alliances that were beat up in the Hegemony.

The point I just quoted and responded to was a straw man, by the way. As it actually accuses us of unfairly targeting Sparta with charges of hypocrisy when frankly that is not only not the case, but saying it is is a blatant attempt at victimization.

Anyway, you've made up your mind that Sparta is the boogey man, or at least you want people to think we are. I doubt anyone is going to change your mind. Keep your eyes on us. If we're as bad as you say we are, we'll be declaring war on some small alliances ourselves soon enough, right?

You're hypocrites. Not the boogeyman. I dont think anyones actually intimidated by you enough to consider Sparta anything except as Hypocrites and opportunists.

Also another straw man, by the way. And if thats your final response to me, then keep on trucking with whatever you're doing. Since clearly calling out your comments for what they are is such a terrible, immature thing to do.

Edit:

EDIT:

It's relevant to me as you insist on accusing my alliance of unproven speculation and insist that the declaration of war on OV by NPO was not significant. You of all people cannot complain that this discussion has gone off topic.

Am I to infer that you no longer believe that NPO started this war and that nobody was in the right to declare war against the NPO? Because you keep telling me that the declaration on OV was irrelevant to the justice of this matter and I keep insisting that you are wrong about that.

I havnt speculated anything. Im just referring back to George's comments on the side Sparta has been on since long before this war. Nice mischarecterization, though.

Im saying that OV itself is irrelevant to the hypocrisy of your alliance, and those like it that attempt to claim the moral high ground despite their complicity in the crimes of the Hegemony. Of course, only after dropping the NPO like a hot potato when convenient. Thats the point of the OP and this thread, not that amusing tangent on the NPO's incompetence (which anyone whos being honest with themselves has realized by now). But please, present another straw man or mischarecterization, at least its something different compared to what you tried to use to "respond" to Grub's point.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

Heh.

So, then why was NPO negotiating again the night you declared if negotiations were over as you say they were?

This is a silly and highly entertaining tangent you have here.

I dont see what the NPO's declaration of War has to do with the Topic at hand. Here I thought we were discussing Karma. And the terms theyve given to the members of the Hegemony.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

So, to summarize your points, you base your posts on whatever you feel like pointing out.

We only ever argue against staw men with assailable speculation and content-less posts.

You invite me to continue aruging with you like I have been.

You've been arguing against straw men. Not me. A fact ive pointed out in each specific reply by pointing out how your response had nothing to do with what you had quoted.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that you are admitting that your posts are not of the variety that deserve to be addressed. I am sure this is not what you mean to say but it is, in fact, what you've said.

Aside from discrediting yourself, you've also managed to... er... discredit yourself by following up the first part of your rant with a bunch of assertions and statements with no grounding.

Another straw man, followed up by a fairly pedestrian attempt at dismissal. I dont believe Ive made up any assertions, actually, Ive pointed out the blatant flaws and straw men made in your own posts.

Are your own arguments so worthless they arent even worth the effort of defending? Thats quite the admission, if so.

For the record, I believe it was the accusations made by Grub against GtG and Sparta at large that started this 'bizarre tangent' you speak of.

It was actually George's response to that post which tried and throw up a smokescreen and a couple of straw men to distract away from Grub's stated meaning.

Once again, when you give an honest response instead of a comment made entirely of straw men, Ill cease calling you out on throwing out nothing but strawmen.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

If you could restate this "undeniable logic and truth" in a new post, that would be great. I think I missed it. That, or it doesn't exist.

No, it indicates you didnt consider yourselves allies at all, and were already preparing to sell out the NPO and whomever else you could ensnare with this war.

Theres a pretty big, distinct line between "drifting apart" and "moving against" an alliance. Identifying yourselves as being on the Karma side months before the conflict occurred is actually a blatant example of the latter.

Thats irrelevant. As all of Karma has acknowledged, OV was a recent occurrence around which "Karma" coalesced. The fact that you identified with that group even without any kind of specific treaty motivation...As George said "Months before the war", pretty much is an admission that if it hadnt been OV, it would have been someone else you would have sold out the NPO for when the time came.

You havnt provided a single fact that actually rebuts the core issue of your alliance's own hypocrisy. As Grub said, this entire issue isnt about "Justice" its about honesty and hypocrisy. Facts indeed.

I see Drosdan made a response with a strawman to this latter point some time after the conversation had already moved on to a new page. So Ill respond to that here:

Yes, it was inevitable that we'd cancel on NPO if they stopped talking to us and then started declaring wars that we had previously said we would not support. We "sold out" the NPO when they decided that it wasn't important enough to even talk to us before declaring war on someone during peace negotiations after we had said we wouldn't support that war. You don't think that 'betrayal' cuts both ways at all? You've got an axe to grind. I get that. Keep grinding it but it doesn't make it any more true.

Why would I have an axe to grind? I dont know you.

And that, once again, is irrelevant. Sparta, as someone who had identified with the NPOs enemies for some time prior to the OV incident, really cant throw up their hands and say "Oh! We abandoned NPO because of a communications issue! Clearly theyre all ebil and stuff so we have the moral high ground!" and expect to be taken seriously.

Really. As I said in the part that was quoted; The incident with OV is really irrelevant, even if it had never happened, you've already admitted you would have betrayed the NPO later down the line regardless. The OV thing was just an extremely convenient set of circumstances for you.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

If I could find the logical and undeniable truths you speak of under all the assailable speculation you bury them under, I might be able to address them.

You talk about spin, Navy has quoted the same Grub post in its entirety at least twice...

You ask an impossibility, you ask me to disprove plots that have never been proven to begin with. If you have logs of us plotting, by all means, dump them so that we can stop this pointless bickering.

I dont speculate. I call out hypocrisy and make posts based entirely on logic or whatever I feel like pointing out is flawed about another persons comments.

And like I said in the quoted portion, you guys only attempt rebuttals through obvious straw men. You have yet to give an actual, honest attempt to deny the basis of the OP, rather, we have some kind of bizarre tangent where you all spam or talk about how your betrayal is the NPOs fault regardless of the fact you had been intending to do so for a long time before OV even became an issue. Or about how the NPO is an exception to a moral standard the overwhelming majority of you publicly trumpeted at the beginning of the war.

But like I said, feel free to reply to the points I made in my posts, or others, if you all want some kind of argument to address.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

I particularly enjoy the fact that the only posts Spartans target are the ones with assailable speculation rather than the ones with undeniable logic and truth behind them.

Or when they do, they throw up straw men liberally then claim to have rebutted the post itself.

Its highly entertaining.

Edit:

I don't mean to take a hostile tone, but you haven't even provided me with anything to refute. Just allusions to some rumour whose various parts have come true in your opinion. I don't know the rumour, I don't know the parts, and I don't know what did or did not come true as you put it.

Two things: If you want a post to respond in an attempt to refute, feel free to take up all the ones where the absurdity of your denials is called out on.

Second: You cant really dismiss a rumor on its contents or lack thereof when you simultaneously admit you dont know the rumor.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

You forget the considerable contingency of NPO attacking OV.

You can furiously try to exploit an ambiguity or you can discuss. I still hold out hope for the latter. We were allies who were concerned that our ally was going to make an aggressive move that we had expressed our disapproval of. You still act as if this war had no cause at all. It's absurd. So in your mind, you're married to an alliance no matter what actions they may take? Genius. That's a great definition of justice.

I only continue to argue because otherwise the truth will be completely buried. Your accusations are baseless and even the fake basis you claim they have are purely unproven. Those are the facts.

Thats irrelevant. As all of Karma has acknowledged, OV was a recent occurrence around which "Karma" coalesced. The fact that you identified with that group even without any kind of specific treaty motivation...As George said "Months before the war", pretty much is an admission that if it hadnt been OV, it would have been someone else you would have sold out the NPO for when the time came.

You havnt provided a single fact that actually rebuts the core issue of your alliance's own hypocrisy. As Grub said, this entire issue isnt about "Justice" its about honesty and hypocrisy. Facts indeed.

[Imperial Decree - New Polar Order]

I fail to see how this constitutes plotting... GtG is simply confirming what my post indicated: that relations had been poor for a while. The fact that Sparta was feeling growingly more alienated from NPO doesn't even come close to refuting my super-powered wall of text. But as usual, nobody wants to read but would rather have conspiracy theories stuffed down their throat.

The point is that what you brand as conspiracy is nothing more than the drifting apart of alliances over time and the swelling of tension that broke at the outset of this war. You act as if any alliance who considers the future of its relationship with its allies is an evil puppetmaster alliance.

No, it indicates you didnt consider yourselves allies at all, and were already preparing to sell out the NPO and whomever else you could ensnare with this war.

Theres a pretty big, distinct line between "drifting apart" and "moving against" an alliance. Identifying yourselves as being on the Karma side months before the conflict occurred is actually a blatant example of the latter.