[TPF Capitulation]

o7 Nordreich!

o/ TSI

Good luck for both of you, and good show for common decency!

[An Announcement from OV and GGA]

People like to hold grudges apparently.

I dont consider it a flawed point, nor do I consider myself holding a grudge. To the contrary, I shed no tears and was all for the Viridiacide back then. I simply felt like pointing out my own personal criteria for what would constitute "change" for the GGA. Such a watershed as accepting responsibility and apologizing for something which upstanding moral types like yourselves would surely regret, would serve as a pretty potent symbol of your "reformity", as it were.

However, if the GGA still feels it was in the right for starting the Green Civil War, then by all means, continue in that belief.

[A Message from the Land of Misfit Toys]

My deepest and most sincere congrats!

[An Announcement from OV and GGA]

Further back than that, I'm REALLY old school.

Right.

Well, Im Older school than you in any case, and given how cranky old men can be, Im not in much of a mood to play guessing games with a kid like you right now. This is about GGA, after all, not VE.

[An Announcement from OV and GGA]

Hmm Its rather complex, Perhaps even I don't understand my feelings on it I could list factors contributing to how I feel (I was going to) But I finished a short list and I realized while looking at it that while they were good reasons they still didn't feel like how I did.

So in the end, I feel like its worth waiting, seeing what happens. Couldn't explain why, just going with my gut.

Or maybe I'm just an old fart who's stuck in the good old days, who will be very disappointed in a few months time, who knows?

Well, at least you're being honest about the discrepancy. Although I dont know what you mean by the last bit, as the "good old days" involved VE pissing off GOONs, leaving the Initiative, and being curbstomped because the GGA wanted more Senate seats.

But like I said, Ill believe in the GGA's "change" mantra, when they start disowning the many, many, many benefits they "suffered" as a Hegemony player.

[An Announcement from OV and GGA]

This "Coup" as you call it, is prove that the GGA has solid internal procedures. Though i will admit that the current leadership is more committed to change than the previous leadership, the first steps towards turning the alliance in a different direction were already taken before the onset of the karma war.

There is nothing disingenuous about stating the truth that change was already underway.

The change in leadership and karma war just kicked it up into the next gear.

Well, forgive me for my skepticism of the capacity for GGA's ability to change, considering they were the ones who came up with the idea for the Viridiacide to begin with. When I see a big announcement from GGA with you guys taking credit and apologizing for it, then maybe Ill give that much hyped "reform" some due.

By the way, Typoninja, im frankly shocked that you'd hold such contempt for the rest of the Hegemony over that, but not despise the GGA with at least equal fervor. Why the discrepancy?

[An Announcement from OV and GGA]

I'll provide the link for those lazy folks.

We fully realize that the GGA has been ridiculed, portrayed as incompetent, unable to do anything without a big protector, evil, even bigger evil and so on.

We also realize that we have little political credit at this time because we were part of the political partnership now referred to as "The Hegemony".

What those who love to taunt/ridicule us are eager to forget is that the process of change was already underway long before the karma war.

We hope that people and alliances who first dismissed us because of our affiliation to certain alliances, now dare take a risk and talk to us to get to know us.

Ordo Verde and MASH both dared to look beyond anti-GGA propaganda and gave us the chance to show them and the rest of planet bob that we're nice guys. Thanks, you won't regret it.

I dont see how the phrase "portrayal as incompetent" can be considered anything other than an attempt to smooth over the obvious. Considering that not a month ago you had something of a coup literally just happen, in order to lead to your present situation, saying that the GGA has been on this path for awhile is kind of disingenuous.

Just saying.

[Three Years of King Penchuk]

I frankly don't comprehend how someone can have the mental stamina to last three straight years in this place. Especially with the hearthache and garbage you've gone through.

Cheers, regardless.

[An Proposed Alternative to the New Pacific Order Peace Terms]

I'm not only talking about that one term...

That the only thing that kept us from peace was the timetable of that term was laughable.

Well, if they say thats the only term that is being disagreed with, then more or less that makes it the only obstacle to a surrender, isnt it? Hardly a laughable claim.

[I have a dream.]

In that case I'll offer my services.

Chron I hate you.

You didn't say why.

Therefore you are fake debating and thus I shall make a 5000 word statement outlining why I think you are but not really targetting you specifically.

It's something I think Francesca would appreciate.

[I have a dream.]

They are busy.

Seriously?

What could be more important than making specious arguments and random tangents against Frostbite Members?

[I have a dream.]

It will die soon enough.

Someone needs to get Sparta in here, then. To expedite the process.

[It's Just My Destiny]

Well, TimLee, hope this turns out better than your last Red Team alliance.

Offense wasnt aimed at FIRE.

[A Public Apology]

Whoa! Your wit and mastery of your keyboard is overwhelming. Did you come up with that all by yourself?

Hold your horses there, me bucko!

No need to get your frazzles in a bedazzle over something so tiny!

Its only a single post. You should go on and take a breather, so as not to let all the wind outta your bag 'afore the nights through, as they say.

[I have a dream.]

I'm still waiting for you to link me to the posts you made criticizing the NPO when they decided to force GATO nations out of peace mode, warred the GPA, perma-warred FAN, imposed a Viceroy on Legion...

You're really cute, making an ad hominem attack against me to accuse me of making an ad hominem attack against HeinousOne.

Anyway, I don't hate the NPO. I just want them to embrace the passion that is within them.

Leave us out of this.

Im all for embracing one's passions, but letting them control you, rather than using them, is a sign of weakness.

However, I more or less agree with Heinous' arguments, and frankly, I just don't see any kind of logic behind your nearly fanatical attacks on him, and dismissals of his arguments. You're from GR, right?

If this is about the NAAC, and revenge, and etc, then NAAC is kind of one of the alliances with the least right to complain about the NPO's tyranny, as they were picking fights (and losing them) with the NPO since long before the alliance became the bastion of evil and treachery it has become...And back when it was something to be afraid of on it's own.

If it's not, then frankly, I dont see what makes you any more qualified than HeinousOne to share his opinion on a term meant to cripple an alliance.

Which he (and I) think no one deserves. The thing about standards, is that they apply to everything. Either its not okay for anyone, or it's allowed. Harsh terms are something a lot of folks were hoping would be one of the greatest casualties of this war...I guess its wrong to complain about being mislead like that?

[A Public Apology]

It was a joke. Feel free to lower your nose.

I think he clearly recognized you [we]re a jok[ing]. I mean its kind of clear from the post you just replied to he was joking around.

/pointoutobvious

[The Velma is Hotter than Daphne Pact]

If the name of the treaty is a lie, then what does that say about the bond between these two alliances?

[I have a dream.]

I think you must have missed the countless discussions that have already developed where Sparta has admitted that things are not black and white and I have personally said that I did not like the Karma moniker from the start. But it is hardly fair after the couple weeks that we've been 'on top' and are still engaged in the very war that severed Pacifica's grasp on the world to say that we aren't much different. There hasn't been a whole lot of time to distinguish ourselves has there? I agree that it remains to be seen. Pacifica sat atop this world for a long time to earn its reputation as a tyrant, let's not be so ready to brand everyone else because of one finalized surrender and another that is yet to be worked out.

I think you're deliberately glossing over the fact that you and your alliance (and others) were more than happy to enable the NPO's tyranny up until this war.

Denying the fact of Sparta's complicity in the Pax Pacifica is kinda disgusting, in my opinion.

[An Announcement from OV and GGA]

Such fragile bonds of loyalty.

Im frankly not shocked by that revelation.

Also lol at Bilrow being competent. That being said, I suppose this makes OV quite forgiving (or is it GGA that is?)

[I have a dream.]

If you want to turn this into a shooting match between who's alliance has committed the most morally questionable and hypocrite actions, then I’m game.

Lord knows the NPO has done much more than RoK and far worse.

And before you say it, no that does not make what they did right.

But your actions do overshadow it, I have not heard any word of RoK abusing it’s role as viceroy, and you are in no position to judge someone upon such an action.

Out of interest who was it that invented the idea of using Viceroys? I’ve heard it being accused at a few alliances in the past but I’ve not heard who actually came up with the damned idea.

The NPO did, only after coming to the conclusion that reps were worse.

Kind of ironic, actually.

[I have a dream.]

Except that ES for example was one of the people who pushed to brand Karma as it is. Once again, a lot of the previous argument was about attributing to all of Karma the faults of any one particular alliance in it. So far, aside from the Echelon terms being pretty harsh, Karma hasn't exactly strangled Planet Bob to death. So, in short, I find it hard to believe that there is anything going on currently that requires the sort of grand-standing that has been witnessed. It points to alternative motives.

Branding Karma?

Karma members openly saying they dont support lenient terms because theyd rather see Hegemony alliances ground to dust as an act of vengeance is some sort of major branding effort on Sponge's part?

And folks pointing that part out (disagreeing with you...how can that be possible?) is somehow evidence of some sort of secret plot?

Phenomenal logic right there.

As I have said before, it's a hard argument to make that we are bent on "destroying" the NPO. Especially when you see so many of us here trying to consider alternative peace options. If that is not the case, then what purpose does it serve to say such inflammatory things? If we're not destroying the NPO then Grub's entire point is worthless. I do not believe that we will destroy the NPO and I do not believe that the NPO's continued existence hinges upon Grub's decree. lol.

Funny how the one "non-negotiable" term was the one the NPO refused outright, and suddenly that makes Karma the ones striving hard to find an alternative peace option.

Really.

*insert Sponge's facepalm emote here*

EDIT: @Chron: Opportunism and conspiracy are not the same thing in case you weren't sure. If I see that a man dropped his wallet and I take it, that's opportunism. If I arrange with others for a man to drop his wallet then take it, that's conspiracy.

To play devil's advocate, when in the hell did NSO start supporting a world of peace and prosperity?

Im...sorry? I dont think anyone ever accused Sparta of conspiracy. I think Sponge said it best when he said that the idea of Sparta being some kind of puppet master is laughable at best. But if you concede Sparta is a blatant opportunist, then all the more power to you for your honest.

By the way, the continued existence of the NPO is something of an endorsement of a world in conflict, is it not?

[I have a dream.]

Edit: double post

[I have a dream.]

I'd respond to Chron but his arguments are more like personal attacks and that rarely leads to good discourse.

An excellent dismissal, I must say. But calling you out on specious claims is hardly some form of a personal attack. For your benefit, Ill continue to respond to your posts, despite your bizarre refusal to defend yourself.

I don't propose conspiracy so much as opportunism.

The irony of the bolded section is so staggering I may have been knocked out for a few seconds.

Yes, the idea that someone would exploit a situation for political advantage is just pure madness.

No, but blatant misrepresentation is annoying. Not to mention bold hypocrisy in pointing that finger at anyone else.

ONOS' highest position was Godfather. NPO demanded that Ivan be installed as Godfather of ONOS and run it. The former happened, and Ivan's lack of interest ensured that the latter did not happen. Many ONOSers despised NPO, Ivan and the viceroy idea. Ivan's lack of leadership during his tenure at the helm of ONOS just exacerbated the ill feelings. Furthermore, the lack of initiatives and progress that a Viceroy usually brings forth was non existent from him.

As for NAAC, it was the wars that forced them to become more efficient. Legion is perhaps the only time (based on my discussions with them) in which a competent Viceroy was rewarded with respect and admiration for his work. The other Viceroy Episodes ranged from complete failures to neutral feelings and very little progress (GATO).

Alright then, ONOS is conceded.

However, I believe Tyga would beg to disagree on the NAAC point. That place was a complete mess until Tyga restructured it during his tenure.

[I have a dream.]

...You don't remember too well.

I can handle being called out on what I wasnt around for, but mind explaining how I "dont remember too well"?

Viceroys are considered worse simply because they affect the self-determination of an alliance. It is worse on an ideological level.

So Viceroys are considered bad because they affect the self-determination of an alliance, whereas cutting off treaties, forced rep payments, forced warfare, and basically forced anything do not? What a wonderful distinction you have there.

[I have a dream.]

I am familiar with the term as I am a classicist. And it calls into question either the sincerity of your comment or your understanding of the term. Grub's decree came right out and claimed that Karma was out to destroy Pacifica. Which is an example of taking the most extreme members of a group and attributing their position to everyone at best and an example of purposely exaggerating at worst. Given Pacifica's obvious sit-and-wait approach to negotiations.

Hrrm...Well, accusing Sponge of misunderstanding such a term belies an immense lack of awareness on your part. That being said, of course Grub claimed Karma's out to destroy the NPO. There have been scores, even HUNDREDS of claims of that very intent from alliances fighting the NPO and TPF, and those who are member of Karma who fought in the peripheral battles.

There was nothing exaggerated about it. Karma members have stated their intent to crush Pacifica for a long time. Dont claim a blatant falsehood and then somehow expect folks to take you seriously.

Once again, not saying it's a conspiracy, simply stating the fact that those forces currently engaged continue to struggle and get dirty while Grub's hands are clean. Was Grub so afraid to talk to leadership that he felt the need to make a decree instead in order to make sure that Grub, Polaris, and Frost Bite were above the base efforts of those on the NPO front?

Im sorry? Perhaps you missed the numerous posts and section of that OP that pointed out that Grub attempted to take his concerns to those parties, only to be rebuffed?

Once again, you have claimed a blatant falsehood. Please don't expect folks to take you seriously.

It's intact because you didn't fight. Not this time. Say all you want, those fighting NPO now are the biggest reason you are able to be so brazen now. It's funny to see you pretend you gained nothing when you're a great example to the contrary. Though I do believe that you hope we fight each other to ZI and I take that to be your most earnest statement here.

Sponge never said he hasnt gained anything. Working towards Pacifica's downfall was his intent all along. Good lord, such Hyperbole from this one.

By the way, how would Sponge actually fighting take away his credibility, anyway?

I was going to make specific references but sifting through that is more than I can bear. I paid very close attention as Grub crossed the line several times with his allegations against GeorgetheGreat and Sparta alike. From whom did Sparta need protection in the few months leading up to the Karma war?

No one, but being on the sight of the Continuum and 1V was still an extremely convenient and comfortable place to be, wasnt it? Mind you, I highly doubt calling George out on his comments and actions was "crossing the line" when Sparta wasnt even the target of the OP to begin with. Hyperbole.

Many people seemed to be saying that we had layed a trap for the NPO and the NPO were dumb enough to walk into it. Yet nobody seemed to provide evidence aside from trying to read a GtG quote as poorly and out-of-context as they possibly could.

That wasnt what folks were saying at all. They were saying Sparta intended to backstab the NPO all along. Demonstratibly false claim. Good lord, you're full of them, arent you?

So once we had any association with the Hegemony there was no overcoming it eh? I hope everyone else keeps that in mind too.

Big difference between "association" and "willful participant".

Protip: If you're going to try to deny that there is any ulterior agenda here it's probably not a good strategy to then in turn brag about your ability to manipulate the world. You're synonymous with manipulating and were actually one of the most vocal initiators of this war in public. You've gotten too comfortable being a prophet, Sponge, and your ego has gotten the better of you. You can easily ask me to believe this wasn't a conspiracy but it is a much harder sell to try to say that you're not taking advantage of the situation and have no intentions of doing so. I fear most the person hypocritical enough to deny his own hypocrisy.

Oh, wow. Sponge has never denied anything about himself. You really are full of nonsense, arent you?