Cormalek

You know last time I offered you flag in exchange for backing off from your small war, I was serious, my tailors had a rough sketch ready and everything (even though stars and stripes thing did hold us back a bit.) For your consideration (although I doubt that you'd be able to do something again to get my lazy $@! on this case once more ): [img]http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/4251/unityfrontflagsketchs.png[/img] Of course minus the peace symbols and MHA sign. [not much can be done with stars and stripes...]

It's not complete, as I didn't fight against nor along all of listed alliances, I'm not into guessing on base, I guess OWF activity? I didn't use a 1-10 scale either, as I don't have a set of quantifiable criteria, which would make the list just a set of arbitrary digits. Instead, I made a list from top to bottom, with commentary. MHA is excluded, as I'm biased. 1st is ex aequo by: Orange Defense Network - they hold the line and fight in squads. Their members try to coordinate with other alliances, and even plan attacks for whole flight. I had really great time fighting alongside some ODN members (and by this I mean - all that I've met). and Independent Republic Of Orange Nations - unquestionably most fun opponents I faced - they know what they're doing, and they manage to stay hoopy even after 2 months of war (it's not a feat to stay classy when you're on the winning side). I only once, personally, had to fight against coordinated group, but that's probably: a) because they were outnumbered greatly b) had many nations in constant anarchy c) It seemed that MHA had low prio on IRON's target list. And I did see coordinated attacks on some other hitchhikers, so it wasn't lack of abilities. Special shout outs for Derrenos, JoeyF, HelloMoTo and The Warrior of TKE Nation (listed by date of declaration). Go Orange! North Atlantic Defense Coalition - no flight coordination (and they were the attackers, so... you know...), but at least I was always able to find nations with full sets of GC's and some barracks to declare on. Good individual ability, no turtling, but without noticeable alliance coordination. Still - fun and making me keep my guard up. Although not listed: TUF, Echelon, and GGA - well you know. meh. No flight/squad coordination, little activity, not always fighting back. Rarely full sets of GC's and barracks. Basicly tech farms. While I was supposed to declare only on those who attacked my fellow hitchhikers, at this period I was fighting against NADC members (as in actual warfare), and TUF, Echelon and GGA allowed me to maintain stable levels of resources [ooc: tech] to keep my army going despite losses [ooc: rebuy lost aircraft at higher levels despite losses of tech to NADC CM's]. Multicolored Cross-X Alliance - yuck. No retaliations (not even CM's), few GC's and barracks, hiding under other aa's (including POW), slur PM's. In terms of military prowess, same level as aforementioned, but there was a huge difference in class. [note! From what I gathered from other members, Umbrella and Fark! were just as helpful and able as ODN from my point of view, but I didn't meet any of them, so you know.]

Ah! Too late? Hope not. Happy Birthday, guys!

Wow, I was going to go along the lines of: "Wow, the embargo is really working!" or "well penny collecting pays off", but apparently my mileage varies? As I don't feel the urge to feel outraged about at least one thing at any time, allow me to provide some context to those numbers: 5 out of 560 MHA nations trade with Gre, so that's 0.89% Considering how big impact OWF actually has on most nations of Digiterra (little to none), I'm suddenly really pleased with the work of our Ministry of Towels, as they are apparently really, [i]really[/i] efficient at keeping both tech and cash within our borders. As to the Ebil FAR... pssh xD 7% of their nations trade with Gre, hardly an organized system of aid. Or, since the numbers seem to be hip right now - 1.4% of their theoretical export abilities [ooc: aid slots] are involved in trading with Gre. Filling 4.75% of Gre theoretical import abilities [ooc: again, aid slots]. Oh yes. They're really[i] turning the odds[/i]. Looking at the spread here, I'd rather point out, that Gre will be able to find trade partners regardless of any actions taken even by majority of big alliances of Bob. This might not be true, but to confirm/deny it, we would need data regarding Gre trades [i]prior[/i] to this situation. Without control group this is just a bunch of numbers, and has nothing to do with reality.

[quote name='Alterego' date='14 April 2010 - 07:30 PM' timestamp='1271266216' post='2260258'] You must have missed the post where MHA said they dont know what Shamlins are up to but think Ramwedge has a plan and think this is an acceptable situation for treaty partners to be in. It that context it was a fair comment. [/quote] Times and times again I forwarded people to where they can find more insight on this. I'd like to ask you not to use condescending voice when speaking of Shamshir in context of this issue. Doing so only suggests having little to no knowledge about who does, says, and stands for what here. Rest of the post... [quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='14 April 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1271266672' post='2260266'] Apparently many people have been talking to the Gramlins for some time now. Doesn't seem to be working, does it?[/quote] Sadly no, it does not. But you must have good sources - last time I checked (rechecking now), none of the people who recently applied for diplomatic status within MHA received it yet, so I assume they didn't have a chance yet to judge our efforts on this matter (not to mention Gre forums, and personal discussions). But not to evade - no. There has been no apparent results of our efforts so far. It doesn't mean we did not take any though. Neither does it imply that we will continue to bang our heads against a wall endlessly. But for now... well, our foreheads have some tough days ahead. @ Heft - not a relief, as we have to monitor what is being done by our allies and rest of Bob, as well as assess our priorities here. I can assure you, that I would be happy to fight a war again. What can I say, I'm trigger-happy. It's the reasons for which I would fight that fill me with uncertainty.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1271263136' post='2260201'] How many times have I said that demilitarization and surrender does not imply that you can't return to a state of war from the table? I suppose at least you're being consistent.... Furthermore, I think the process of "demilitarization" is adequately outlined. You can correct me if I am wrong. [/quote] Sorry Matthew, but it does mean just this. Nation can build nukes, navy vessels and wonders only once for oh so often [ooc: daily nukes and navy purchase limit+wonder clock]. War battered nations have also overstretched resources. [ooc: negative improvements]. And if they agree to unconditional surrender, and then are presented with unreasonable terms, they will not be in a position to defend themselves, and even if they tried - they'd give Gre a semi-valid CB (for all it's worth at this point) to continue the war (but at this point in form of senseless beating). I remind you that this war has been going on for a while now, so money reserves [ooc: war chests] have to be depleted. [edit: "ooc" missing in a bracket ]

And if we don't support full-on assault of Gre while trying to help resolving this through diplomatic channels, then the answer is what? Gulgamesh? Nes? C'thulhu? This is not a yes or no question. Hell, there's even no question! Hopefully some of those directly involved will get much more info on this subject shortly (I can't help to speed things up - other masking privileges). There are many factors that relate to this, and OWF is not involved in resolving any of them.

Well CN doesn't end on OWF. Furthermore, because of some practices here, many regard OWF as irrelevant(at best) to real politics of Bob. Example - Pudge is probably unknown to many of people here; but claiming to know much about us at the moment, without knowing him is... a bit baffling. I was glad to see some new applications for diplomatic mask on our forums, the IRC is still a bit underestimated, but hopefully that will change with time.

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 11:49 AM' timestamp='1271238542' post='2259907'] I don't think its a cases of IRON wishing to do their thing and have fun continuing this as they don't want to unconditionally surrender, also observing isn't a clear position on what would happen if it escalated more, unless you're saying you would just continue observing in that case as well. Observing is usually what you do as you're still deciding on something.[/quote] We are not entering now. If there will be new facts in this matter to be considered - we will have to consider them. How many times does that need to be rephrased to get through? [quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 12:21 PM' timestamp='1271240463' post='2259931'] So its an agreement with you guys keeping IRON from bringing anyone in and you guys don't know what you would do if something out of IRON's control happened. Now it seems more clear.[/quote] Sort of, yes. We don't enter now, and since IRON said they won't bring more allies in - we don't have anything more to clarify at this moment. I'd hoped my definite answer would explain a lot, but apparently Douglas-made literature is not as popular outside of MHA ;-) So maybe an Italian mobsters metaphor? "So you know about the thing?" "What, the one with the guy with the hat?" "No man, I mean the fella with a whoohoo. You know. The bippabob on the..." "Yeah, forget about it. He did that thing though" "He's a friend?" "Friend of Johnny's, but he's a good kid. Heard good things" "So can he... you know?" "Wha', a... bombapop?" "Well you said it." "And does the pope wear a hat?" And we're asked to provide a yes/no question to the above. BTW: We all post here for some reasons. What are yours, Methrage? Your alliance entered this conflict, and MHA didn't counter. What do you wish to accomplish with your posts?

[quote name='Feanor Noldorin' date='14 April 2010 - 02:50 AM' timestamp='1271206208' post='2259384'] I didn't see any concrete answers from him when others asked similar questions. A "yes" or "no" is all that is needed. [/quote] Play chess. It's easy there, they're either black or white, to your liking. Here, things are a bit more complicated. Ok, so do you really want to know a straightforward answer to those questions? [quote name='Titus Pullo' date='14 April 2010 - 03:49 AM' timestamp='1271209774' post='2259483'] That would be fair too logical of an action for HARAMlins to make. [/quote] To the contrary - it would be illogical for us to do so. Apparently some people here understand this, explanation has been provided. [quote name='Il Impero Romano' date='14 April 2010 - 06:39 AM' timestamp='1271219933' post='2259717'] The question has been asked multiple times in this thread, and each it has been intentionally ignored. Given that, I doubt they will man up and be forthright anytime soon. Disappointing though, if they did not want this to reflect on them, now would be a good time to speak up. [/quote] Il Impero Romano - I personally answered like 3 or 4 of those (1 via PM). And now I feel silly about it, because apparently [s]most people here[/s] some of more vocal here, are unwilling to make the effort to read between the lines, and assess the situation. I trust that reading our posts (and where we explicitly pointed you towards like 3 times already for christ sakes) will help to change your mind about "MHA ignoring questions". [disclaimer - although I do ignore(as in not read them) some posts, yes. But 1 - they're from people not only uninvolved, but who cannot be reasoned with, 2 - I doubt they contribute anyway, 3 - I know there are hitchhikers who expose their minds to those posts. No need to increase the collateral on my side) OK, so you guys really want to get the answer on this one? You really want a simple answer to questions asked in this thread? So using my knowledge of our gov, I will give you a final, definite answer to questions asked in this thread, as most of discussions are being held at IRC anyways. And I can assure you, that[b] this is what our triums would answer[/b]. Don't whine if it is too explicit or not to your liking, you've asked for it. So the answer is [/me checks]... 42.

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 11:28 PM' timestamp='1271194105' post='2259127'] (Unless there is something I am missing, then I apologize) [/quote] About 50 pages, several MHA members posts, and some grasp of this situation. But other than that, way to go with antagonizing a side that's been trying to help. If you don't know how - see above. [quote name='janax' date='14 April 2010 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1271199447' post='2259251'] Anyone willing to jump on Ramlins isn't concerned about MHA. It's surrender terms preventing it. Edit: on another note, I know Ramirus has stated previously that he'd ignore Harmlins to attack MHA if they deserved it. I can probably dig that quote up if you like. [/quote] Was there no re-entering clause? Also - please do, would be helluva read. If it exists.

[quote name='MCRABT' date='13 April 2010 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1271181289' post='2258843'] MHA is an alliance I have long held a soft spot for, to see you hold confidence in some of the poorest behaviour in recent times is somewhat disheartening. I'm curious as to what aspect of these actions fill you full of confidence about the future prosperity of your relationship with Gremlins?[/quote] [ooc: I blame google.]Well I couldn't find appropriate translation of the idiom I had on mind (it works in french if that would help - avoir du crédit), so I hoped you'll get what I meant. Imagine trust as an asset, one that can be credited (on base of past actions). The amount of given asset (cash, trust) at hand is secondary to general ability to produce and sustain it at high levels. We might disagree or doubt current actions, but we have to regard our past here. Really, I'm not good at being cryptic, am I? [ooc: Toyota brakes thing. Would you get into a new Toyota sold in US right now? Do you think of Toyota cars as reliable on general? One does not exclude the other, though it can change the latter in the long run.]

[quote name='Alterego' date='13 April 2010 - 07:32 PM' timestamp='1271179916' post='2258823'] Sounds like the actions of lemmings. [/quote] or maybe some confidence in actions of gov of our friends Potaytoh, potatoh.

Maybe it is, and I just rationalize. But I tried to stress in my posts that we do [i]not[/i] look the other way. I even provided hints (twice now) as to where one can find some more info on this (although only partial). [quote name='The Warrior' date='13 April 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1271177196' post='2258780']I understand that MHA is "friends" with the gRAMlins, although what I don't understand is [b]why[/b] you are still friends, but there is a really easy way that MHA could help see this problem resolved. Seeing as the gRAMlins CB has expired, you could easily excuse any one or more of our allies from the term that does not allow them to aid us until this situation is resolved.[/quote] If an ally pulls moves one disagrees with, he changes his treaties. When a friend does that, one tries to influence him, and do whatever needed to remain friends (within some boundaries). As to peace terms - CB expired, but the war did not end. Apparently, there's a reason as to why Ramlins are doing this, but as you got the "magic box" option, we get the "Daddy knows what he's doing" line. From what we saw in this thread, we're on par with Gre members on this. As to aid - I cannot see how that would help. You have stronger low and mid tier nations, the general problem here is that if your high tier nations left peace mode - they'd face much stronger enemy; and mid tier nations can't develop for the same reason. At least this is my understanding of this situation. How would aid help to break impasse on this?

You people type too fast. [quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1271171862' post='2258722'] So you don't see standing in the way of us trying to end this as passively enabling the Gramlins behavior? Interesting. [/quote] I answered the question, not asked it. If you think those are the same thing, why did you phrase them as separate questions? Or was it a trick to see if I notice that there's (in your opinion) no difference? No, I don't see it as equal. Despite our disagreement with current Gre actions, we still think of Gremlins (members) as of our friends, and will shield them if it's necessary. As "passively enabling the Gramlins behavior" I understand twiddling our thumbs, and looking the other way. Much like with the case of when TOP reps were being discussed - the fact that you don't get many intel on it, does not mean we do nothing. [quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1271171862' post='2258722']Since you say it depends when discussing attempting to restrict our actions, do you see MHA as having actually left this war?[/quote] Yes. [quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1271171862' post='2258722']Also, what specific actions would you attempt to restrict if you have a say in the matter?[/quote] Show me specific actions that can be/were taken, and I'll elaborate. IE, if GGA, MCXA, NADC or Echelon wanted to join IRON and DAWN in their fight, that would be against our peace terms (re-entering). The Citadel declared on Gre, and we did not retaliate, but this should be perceived by the prism of the impact they made on this conflict. I really don't want to theorize. Each case has to be handled separately. [quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1271172490' post='2258732'] I take that to mean you don't want your thoughts public on the OWF. Mind if I hunt you down on IRC and discuss it with you at some point?[/quote] I'd love to, however I generally prefer PMs, as I don't write all that fast. But I guess IRC would help to get more-to-the-point answers from me Although, in my post I was referring to embassies. [ooc: I'm a GMT+1, so I'm online mostly between 10 AM to 6PM CN time.]

Well what'cha gonna do, I noticed appropriate area for this [ooc:OWF propaganda thread] only recently, so only MHA and CSN had access to it. I can provide editable version, but wont do it myself, as I'm sort of under the blanket myself Hehe, the IRONy of this situation is killing me. I'm enabling this, even though I disagree wholeheartedly. [Brannigan voice]: It's sort of... poetic. To elaborate on my "no": OWF is not the only widely accessible/public CN forum, ask your FA people.

[quote name='Matt Miller' date='13 April 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1271165234' post='2258641'] I'm happy you disagree with their aims. The question is for all those currently paying lip service to this issue, will you stand in the way of this getting handled? Will you attempt to put restrictions on what DAWN and IRON can do to bring this situation to a close? Will you passively enable these "friends" to continue down this path? The answers to those questions are the only words that matter at this point. [/quote] Yes, it depends, no. Dochartaigh, Delirious Propaganda Department created one of these after NSO particularly... high pitched DoW, but nobody used it here [img]http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6006/nsodow.png[/img] [ooc:I still have a xcf of this in case someone wonders]

[quote name='Starfox101' date='13 April 2010 - 11:44 AM' timestamp='1271151864' post='2258564'] Boo hoo. All of you whining about Gramlins keeping IRON at war supported the NPO doing the same thing. What we can all assure though, is that this war won't last near as long as the one you supported. [/quote] I guess it's the difference of whether one looks to:[list=a] [*] what is the general standard of given community [*] what are the highest standards to look up to [*] what one can get away with.[/list] The first option I listed is also the one that is most commonly held in any group. To question community standards is to question community itself (at least for some), which is one of the reasons why so many people voiced their opinions regardless of general political interests, and/or alignment. /me goes back into the shadow to twiddle his thumbs.

Vladimir... Um... Would you happen to have some free time at hands? We will be releasing new issue of Don't Panic soon, and this is [s]simply great![/s] evil propaganda. I'm not 100% sure, but IMO our editors would [s]be thrilled[/s] allow to run some [s]cool articles written from other point of view[/s] propaganda about this past war/it's ending. Could be good way to [s]rebuild good relations [/s] know the enemy. As to "is this a new war"? Not quite. The merit of this war was the TOP and IRON v CnG front. But as MHA's involvement with GGA, NADC, Echelon and MCXA was still part of the same front, Gremlins fighting IRON after others back out - is still the same war (even more so). [b]If[/b] an alliance would join in - it might start a new war. But alliances that agreed not to rejoin this conflict - are still bound not to do so. Should they re-enter... well, then new war / old war will be semantics differentiation only. To continue Vladimir's metaphor - the businessman's friend (I passed other pick for this out of respect for IRON) now can't get back home, because one of the guys from the alley is standing with a bat between him and his car. But should other concerned citizens go out of the Community Club see this picture and start attacking the bloke with bat - well the fella in blue shirt (because I guess it was supposed to be MHA?) is [s]in the bar across the street, having taco[/s] in the pawn-shop, cashing in a golden-tooth. [ooc: it's sort of like WWII as Russia and Japan never signed peace.]

Aimee Mann - hehehe... Aren't you that guy that checked [b]every single[/b] option in the Gre poll? I actually double checked, it [i]was[/i] you. I hope that you won't hold it against us if we ignore you from now on, on the basis of thriving on conflict and questionable logic.

[quote name='Haflinger' date='05 April 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1270466980' post='2248959'] Didn't expect MHA to leave Grämlins fighting. Interesting. [/quote] Well, you might recall this: [quote name='Cormalek' date='21 March 2010 - 07:15 PM' timestamp='1269191721' post='2232224'] One of the reasons we are friends with Grämlins is because they would never pull crazy $#&% like that. Feed us some variables that would make it possible, and I will be able to sincerely answer your question. But if Grämlins would get into a curb-stomp, and we would be anywhere lower than 10 on a WTF scale about their reasons - Yes. We would stand by them[/quote] I was 9.5/10 when it was talked about, dropped to 9 on the eve of Gre elections after some members voiced their opinions on this, 10 when I heard that Ram was still at the steers on the next day, and them my WTF-o-meter ran out of batteries. In retrospect, throwing it against a wall didn't help either. And from what I understand this is only because I don't have enough info. People directly involved had to implement a new scale for this. And you might want to look at the poll. Oh, and you might see that even though MHA was involved with IRON, and 5 smaller alliances (with collective NS 2 mil higher than MHA's) we did not ask for ANY reps. Hell, we're not even listed on the "surrendered to". If you stopped to process that, it might've become apparent, that prolonging the war to get unconditional surrender was [b]the exact opposite[/b] of our position. All in all, I feel hurt. I'm an attention-whore, and you paying apparently no attention to what we say, do, and stand for... it hurts me. It aches in my id.

peace is good, yadiyadiyada What I'd really like to say here is: Hail IRON! \o Guys, I really enjoyed fighting with you. It was your members that made most formidable opponents. Not ONCE have I seen any dishonourable actions ([ooc:like aa swap/alteration, fake POW-ing and such]) by your members. I'd especially like to give shout outs to: Derrenos - my first opponent, it's been good, all-out war [ooc: "They Live!" style]. HelloMoTo - fighting to the last soldier, doing GA's with whatever % you can. The Warrior of TKE Nation - for my first nukes (we cut back on street lamps thanks to them), and a fun war querraran - my BlackJack war - 21st this conflict, and halfway to 42nd - what better end could I hope for, than fighting a #94 IRON nation? TORN - we did not meet at battle, neither as allies nor opponents. But meeting Lord Curzon here, was one of the best memories I'll have from this war. May we meet in some better circumstances :-) As to the "notes". Well The Poll was public, no need to elaborate.

[quote name='King Chill I' date='02 April 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1270217898' post='2245324'] (...)The whole unconditional surrender thing is an idea along these lines. Its new, its interesting and its got all of your panties in a bunch. [/quote] If that was supposed to be a rock-band metaphore, then it seems you've mistaken rocks for panties. I'd reccomend not building fortresses from the latter and not wearing the former. Aw snap! It seems that I chewed through my gag-ball. Gonna go look for a new one, and get some batteries for my WTF?-o-meter while at it. They run out really fast lately for some reason. Must be the global radiation levels.

"will we believe what the mayans said hundreds of years ago ?" Seriously, lol. The Mayans designed a kickass calendar, one that was better that any other, since it was exact. No adding extra day every 4 years, or having the new year occur at different dates. Easy to track, too. It had one slight handicap. It went only to a year that for us is two years from now. As we know, that was much of an overkill anyways. By this logic, The Mighty Engineers from XX century "foretold" end of the world in 2000, when calendars in many programs ended. There's no such thing as Mayan prophecy about end of the world. It is simply not true. And pointing out that their calendar was not perfect is at this point quite rude ;-) BTW. According to my wrist watch, it is 9:02 PM, and thus the world will end in less than 3 hours.

[quote name='Lord Brendan' date='23 March 2010 - 12:20 AM' timestamp='1269299987' post='2233591'] So basically you're saying that a problem which has plagued your alliance for over a year (your conflicting treaties) caught you by surprise. [/quote] Fallacy. You're twisting my words to fit your agenda/talking point. I'd really appreciate if you'd refrain from doing that, it for some reason grinds my gears. One glance on how long I've been part of MHA [ooc:ie on left from my post/aa seniority] would reveal, that I'm part of MHA for only 3 months, and thus my explanation cannot be stretched to fit 4 times longer period. You also sort of missed the point of what I said. We've recognized the problem and were working on it. So seeing it cause more complications is hardly a surprise, now is it? Not only that, but you completely ignored second part of post you've quoted. I pointed out the important arguments, and shifts in opinions this conflict brought to our attention. So even if we'd work much faster and managed to address [b]all[/b] problems visible a [i]year[/i] ago, we'd still end up having some problems with it in this conflict (vide TOP treaty). Don't quote me on statements you did not read and comprehend, please. Next time just write "MHA sucks!" and get over with it, it will save both yours and my time. [edit: mine->my d'Oh!]