R&R-Viking

enjoy the retirement man, if you enjoy it half as much as I do, you'll be fine o7 Sera

ok guys next time let's actually put terms in because these pubbie tears are golden

At this point it's down to only two or three people on the NSO side just spinning in the wind, it's really funny to watch.

No, seriously. It's not that common to admit someone with active wars regardless of the circumstances. I've been here four years and that is pretty much a constant. You work out the issues on behalf of the applicant before admission, admittance before solution has historically led to problems. That's why they make "XXX Applicant" alliance affiliations.

[quote name='shilo' timestamp='1281727591' post='2414667'] No one doubts that when an alliance gets threatened with war by the dominating coalition, being more than extra-careful is the smart thing to do, however, isn't it common diplomatic courtesy that before you start filling slots of a nation currently (as was known then) being part of another alliance, you try to give them time to sort this out internally, give them time to judge the evidence that led you to consider him a rogue (and responding to being spied on is only roguery when you think that a nation fighting back at a tech raid is a rogue as well), kick him out, and then start filling his slots? The nation in question wasn't even able to slip in peace mode, so why the rush? [/quote] NSO is the only alliance I know of that lets in nations with active wars. You aren't suggesting that common diplomacy measures were discarded, you're asking RoK to bend the normal rules of diplomacy because NSO is a special snowflake. This could have been prevented right then if NSO didn't have a policy outside the boundaries of what all alliances on both sides of the web consider normal.

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281658678' post='2413475'] Oh, okay, just making sure. You hate THE Hegemony, whereas I just hate the [i]practice[/i] of hegemony. You sir, just lost the right to complain about hegemonic practice as an idea. Even if it's against your friends. [/quote] I don't claim I hate the practices, I hate the people. You can tell me I can't do something all you want, I guess.

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281653743' post='2413379'] Just so that I'm clear on what you're saying, could you elaborate on this a bit more? Weak vs. strong... 'cause it seems to me that you're either opposed to hegemony or you're not. See, where everyone seems to be going wrong is that they've come to the habit of taking the name "Hegemony" and sticking it to an alliance. This may have been appropriate prior to the Karma War, but things change over time. "[i]Hegemony[/i]" is an idea. It's a practice. You can come out and preach against it all night and day, but then when you do something [i]hegemonic[/i], and you stand your grounds on it, that [i]makes[/i] you hegemonic. It's very clear to all of us here I think that while the CB is a valid CB, the fact that a DoW was posted anyway over something so trivial goes to show hegemony in action. I'm against hegemony, no matter who practices it. Where do [i]you[/i] stand, exactly? [/quote] I hated the Hegemony because they used their tactics against my friends, not because of their tactics. Try again.

[quote name='PotFace' timestamp='1281649499' post='2413295']Part of being a part of the Karma coalition was to fight against those types of practices. It was inherently opposed to hegemony. So, somewhere, somebody has lost some integrity here. What I want to know, is, who?[/quote] Half of Karma was screaming at the other half for being weak during the entirety of that war. Since you are defending the other side, I hope you don't mind if I paint you the same as Hegemony, right?

[quote name='William Bonney' timestamp='1281650415' post='2413315'] I'm sorry but isn't that clearly not the case according to these logs? [/quote] There are logs with Sedrick in the NSO channel. Do some legwork.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281631170' post='2412828'] No, everyone who fought in Karma had the [b]exact[/b] same points of view and were all fighting for the [b]exact[/b] same reasons. We were all moralists trying to make the world a better place. Now shut up and fall back in line, man! [/quote] I forgot, I'm truly sorry. I'll get "puppies and rainbows" tattooed on my forehead in reverse so I don't forget again.

[quote name='Branimir' timestamp='1281630056' post='2412805'] I am just hitting the final nails on the "karma war propaganda--we are better then you" coffin. [/quote] If you knew anything about the alliances in question, you would know the Karma analogy doesn't work. Keep hammering that nail, though.

[quote name='Sulmar' timestamp='1281597650' post='2412479'] Because we weren't going to pay reps if he wasn't guilty? [/quote] You believe he's not guilty, correct? You went to war over him, and are losing badly. Guess what you'll probably have to do anyway!

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281594671' post='2412423'] "Will be considered" and "Is" are two entirely separate concepts. The former basically grants a license for RoK to respond, and then contractually obliges it. The latter claims to alter reality.[/quote] Just gonna go ahead and quote this so more people see it. This is the defense NSO is reduced to.

[quote name='kulomascovia' timestamp='1281579795' post='2412000'] I think you already attacked West Point first. [/quote] I doubt they care, which is why I love GOONS.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281579493' post='2411990'] Okay this argument is dumb but somehow has to defend basic logic. RoK declaring war on us, or anyone, does not prove anything about whether an attack on TENE is an act of war against RoK. That whole statement is just a pile of mush, really. [/quote] If you keep thinking that, maybe the war will disappear. Maybe.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281577803' post='2411913'] I did not claim it means nothing. I claimed that writing something down does not make it true. The world would be pretty awesome if you could just write stuff down and it became a reality, but that's not how it works. Just like Hoo is not god and he cannot dictate things to make them a reality. Although admittedly some people seem to think he is, including Hoo himself. [/quote] An act of war against TENE is an act of war against RoK. We know this is true and not false because RoK declared war on NSO. Why you're claiming the wording means something different is beyond me. e- I think the post I quoted is the most absurd line of thinking I've heard yet in this conflict.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281559567' post='2411506'] That's your point of view. You may not care about our opinions, but we certainly do. [/quote] That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. Wars are most likely to be started over differing opinions, though, and if yours is valid to you, ours is just as valid to us. [quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281560868' post='2411531'] Another way of saying this is "There was never any time for negotiations." You will, of course, be ignorant of what the negotiations I refer to would have been about. So I have to spell it out for you: Negotiating a solution to [i]Heft's error in aiding the NSO member.[/i] You'll still ignore it, though. The other alternative is that you believe NSO should have been negotiating a solution to the problem before the problem occurred, but that's just absurd, right? ...Right? [/quote] Don't aid, negotiations between Heft and Hoo probably would have been fruitful. Once Heft sent aid, negotiations were over. This has been spelled out numerous times, and I'm more privy to what negotiations went on than you may believe.

[quote name='Heft' timestamp='1281565273' post='2411626'] Well, it was more like this, from my perspective: Heft: Hey, you're attacking this guy we just told you we were protecting. What? Hoo: Yes, we are. Heft: But we just told you we're protecting him? Hoo: We don't care. Heft: Well now if I defend the guy that would lead to war, even though we just told you we were protecting him, so I'll just send him some aid instead. Hoo: That would be an act of war. Heft: I'm sure you won't declare war over that because that would be incredibly retarded. Clearly I did, in fact, misjudge. I underestimated the apparent severity of the situation, I guess. And violated some policy or whatnot. [/quote] Very apologetic of you!

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281559175' post='2411499'] Alright. As long as you're not saying that we didn't try to negotiate after we sent the aid. And for your information, I don't think RoK did much diplomacy before or after the aid was sent. This may be irrelevant to the war, but it is a something to remember. [/quote] They didn't have to. NSO interjected itself into a situation they had no business being in.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1281557776' post='2411469'] stuff [/quote] So NSO attempted negotiations after the time for negotiations had passed?

^TENE was already at war with him, TENE is RoK's protectorate, therefor RoK was already at war with the nation before NSO accepted him. [quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281557295' post='2411460'] Let me clarify. He's not apologetic that we accepted sedrick into our alliance. He's not apologetic that he was being ignored in his talks with RoK. He's certainly not apologetic for not allowing his alliance be played around. We are not apologetic for any of these things either. The only thing we are apologetic for is for sending aid to Sedrick. That's it. From our point of view, this is the only thing that we did wrong, and it is the only thing that matters right now. Everything else is just debate about things irrelevant to the cause of war. It may be relevant to formulating their views on NSO/RoK, but it certainly isn't relevant to resolving this war. [/quote] I'm talking about the aid itself.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281554122' post='2411418'] Except, no they didn't. [/quote] Well, going in to PM certainly is a response, so it's kind of true that they attempted a fix of sorts.

[quote name='Jrenster' timestamp='1281551148' post='2411354'] Heft told us this after he sent the aid: "Okay I totally $%&@ed this one up and misjudged a few things." I'd like to think that sounds like he's apologetic. Heft understood, you are correct, but he definitely misjudged some things. This legitimately was not us trying to provoke. I know you probably won't agree with me, but I this is the truth from my standpoint. [/quote] He might well be apologetic behind closed doors, and with good reason. I don't doubt you for a second. Unfortunately I've read chat logs and seen his posts here, and he's not portraying the same feelings. That's probably more crucial at this point and time than what he says to his alliance in private.

[quote name='mike717' timestamp='1281546767' post='2411230'] 1) alliance level stuff is (admittedly) a completely different animal, than what i was talking about, which is a tech raid. 2) i wasn't aware i had a "side" 3) keep in mind that i think this whole war asinine. Heft shouldn't have ordered the aid, Hoo shouldn't have had such an itchy trigger finger, threats are to be taken seriously, people should have been notified sooner, everyone was in a hurry to whip out their junk for a measuring contest, etc etc etc. I understand perfectly well why and how it happened, I also think it's dumb. [/quote] First, let me apologize for painting you into a side. I hate when people do it to me, that was a mistake on my part. To clarify, I mean people who disagree with the historical precedent of not aiding someone at war with an alliance. This started before the nation in question was a NSO member. He brought baggage to the NSO and as such it was up to NSO to be more diplomatic. If I was in Hoo's position I probably wouldn't have done the same thing, but his reputation is well known and this all could have been avoided if Heft didn't order aid. That's historically an act of war, and while he was more quick to exercise the military option than I would have been, he was completely justified in my opinion.

[quote name='memoryproblems' timestamp='1281546374' post='2411223'] You know what else isn't ok? Having 3 members declare war on a member of another alliance without even talking to said other alliance about the situation. Regardless of what NSO did, I'd consider that a more valid act of war then any aid that NSO sent Sedrick. [/quote] Admitting a member with active wars is right up there with aiding people with active wars against established alliances, as far as things frowned upon historically go. We've had a bit of a paradigm shift the past few days and suddenly both are ok because why? NSO said so? Then it's clearly ok to launch a war over the aid because Hoo said so. -also, good to see you didn't quit after the Karma War like you said you were going to when I bill locked you. I'd hate to have a nation quitting being on my conscience.