Keve69

o/ Good luck IAA!

YES! This is one of the best announcements I've seen in a long time. Good luck in the future OO. o/

Congratz on the 5th birthday GATO!

The cancellation of this treaty makes sense. o/ RIA, good luck in the future. Not that'll you need any

[quote name='DictatatorDan' timestamp='1294641921' post='2570870'] [color="#FF0000"]I know you know that I know. Make a guess.[/color] [/quote] Which one is a reroll of Sam!?

Gratz on the new lineup Polar its looking damn good.

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294562444' post='2569590'] Conveniently you forget to mention everything after that leading up to this point.... [/quote] Thats what all the previous pages of this thread are for...

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1294560812' post='2569560'] Really? Masks get forgotten when dealing with a group of rogues that have turned into a huge issue? That's not poor organization, it's either (a) arrogance in thinking no one will notice or (b) criminally negligent. As for it leading to ZI. What lead to YOUR ZI, as far as I can tell from my non-gov armchair, was you stating that certain things would be done... and then not doing them. So, answer the original question. If you REALLY feel the way you say you do here, why did you take this train so far down the tracks? Why would you not immediately stop the negotiations, remove the users and be done with it? "You have several nations attacking our nations" You have two choices here (a) "Sorry, they were stupid and didn't check for a protection notice.. Tally your damages and we'll compensate" or (b) "I told them to peace out, they refused. They're officially rogues, removed from our AA and you are free to do with them as you will" INSTEAD, you choose C, which is somehow a mixture of A and B with a heavy dose of arrogance thrown in. Why? [/quote] To answer your question I've never intended to take this this far, I'm not the one rehashing this topic again on the OWF. I've been trying to end this issue ever since it started to be honest. In fact as soon as I heard about it I went to AiD and got the situation resolved in less than an hour. The reason why I went with Option C is because I wanted to help AiD, genuinely. They didn't want to attack the rogues and the rogues didn't want to pay a damn dollar to AiD. I got AiD the peace they wanted and I thought 'jeez, those AiD guys all have their slots empty' let's see if I can't do anything for them. I proposed to get them sorted out with tech deals and it was promptly accepted. Furthermore, *I* went out of my way to post a public apology that night, AiD didn't ask for one and didn't care when I offered to make one. The fact that I did is not an act of arrogance. Now before you come out and tell me that I was somehow looking to make a profit with those deals, thats just plain silly. Tech is worth a lot more than money and we all know that, additionally, its not like UINE has a shortage of buyers for that tech or that I was desperately looking for someone to pick it off us from, please. In a situation where I wasn't at fault I took tech which would have been bought by our own nations and gave AiD first dibs, nothing was forcing me to do that and sure as hell wasn't arrogance. UINE didn't owe AiD reps and the fact that what was originally an act of kindness has been twisted and construed like that is nonesense.

[quote]I'm only glad I got to play my part thats all.[/quote] You mean your glad to air your little grudge in public again... [quote]1. You are arrogant and overconfident. 2. You are a friend to your alliance and you are certainly no leader (far from it) 3. You keep people in office who are completely incompetent and you appoint your little buddies opposed to able bodied people. 4. You messed with the wrong group of people this time [/quote] This has zero relation to the issue at hand, glad you think I'm a friend to the people I play CN with though.

[quote name='EViL0nE' timestamp='1294559728' post='2569540'] Why does it matter if [GOVERNMENT] rogues are still members of an alliance or not? I've seen you say some pretty foolish things, SCY, but I refuse to believe you're actually that stupid. If BigZ and Mixoux go rogue tomorrow on MXCA but retain their status in GOD, but Xiph tells you to go ahead and ZI them, is that ok? Are we good there? Do you really think attempting to set that kind of precedent is a good idea? [/quote] Actually thats just plain false, none of them were government at the time of it happening. True Matarrese still had a deputy mask but her account before this little issue had been inactive since August. We forgot about it, poor organization? Criticism taken, but masks being forgotten happen from time to time and in no ones wildest dreams should this ever lead to ZI's or ingame conflict. Never.

[quote name='Toshiro Hitsugaya' timestamp='1294558908' post='2569519'] Well it seems like there is justice on the Planet Bob after all. I only wish it was big-joe right along with Keve69. Good decision on all parties involved. I am glad to see a true and just resolution to a problem that could have been ended swiftly a week ago. [/quote] If you think this is a 'just' resolution to this issue then you might want to tell me what else you see in your protectors arse cuz your head is pretty far up there...

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294558090' post='2569500'] It was easily solved then more uine nations attacked and AiD was told to "war reps out of them". Then they got pressured into accepting ridiculous deals and that's where we stepped in. People complain about a 200 member alliance bullying a 100 member alliance. Well that was after that same 100 member alliance bullied an 8 member alliance around. UINE has made clear they felt superior to AiD because of their size, with the same reasoning we can feel the same about UINE. Push people around all you want, but don't cry like a little child when someone pushes back. [/quote] You keep saying how this was 'easily solved', what you keep ignoring is that this "easy" settlement was negotiated between rogues and AiD and that later when i asked the rogues to pay what they had agreed too they told me they'd rather go for ZI. *Poof* there goes that 'easy' settlement, oh right, it was never really there. I guess that will teach AiD for negotiating with the rogues raiding them. Also, how does UINE saying: "No we aren't going to pay you money you negotiated with rogues" us bullying them in any way?

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294556635' post='2569467'] A day after the fact, all still had masks. When this was brought up, their primary masks were removed and the primary permissions they had were shifted to secondary - under the mistaken belief they weren't public as well. Keve has behaved like a snake, and his ZI was added to the terms because of it. Had he negotiated like any even average leader, and in good faith, this would've been solved a very long time ago. [/quote] These people lost access to all gov parts of the forums the moment they went rogue. In all honesty over my CN career I've dealt with quite a few rogue issues and no one ever got butthurt about if a rogue could see our spam areas or not. Once it was pointed out how big of an issue this was I immediately removed all permissions from the affected people so as to try to cool down the situation. These people were all in UINE for extended periods of time and had all held several positions over their stay meaning they had tons of different masks. In between dealing with another round of 'negotiations' I forgot a single mask on a single account [i]which hadn't been forum active since August 12th[/i]and somehow I'm switching permissions to secondary masks? Please take the tinfoil hat off. Also, forums are OOC and noone but the owner has any sort of buisness telling us who may or not may be posting on them. If you want to pay for our forum then you may raise a rucus over whos allowed to post in our spam threads.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294555150' post='2569444'] Cute, but that was never one of the terms AiD's side wanted. I clarified that myself in negotiations, and when it somehow found it's way into the final set of terms R&R ensured it was removed. I'm sorry we deprived you of some cheap moral outrage, though. Try harder next time. [/quote] Yes, we are *clearly* making this up... /rollseyes [quote][17:49] <EgoFreaky[RnR|Tri]> First off the previous agreement will stand, which was the 5 rogues ZI'ed and expelled, [b]SorelC permanently expelled[/b]. We already offered 4 rogues a reduced sentence to 1 week of war instead of ZI though before this went on[/quote] P.S: The bolding is mine.

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1294554303' post='2569411'] Know what I call extortion? I call extortion a pathetic, insignificant alliance like UINE raiding a tiny alliance like AiD and then, when AiD requests reparations, they respond [and I'm quoting here]: You can either do 3m/100 tech deals with us, or "war it out of us." That's what I call extortion. I'm so, [b]so[/b] sorry for UINE that AiD happened to have friends they couldn't push around so easily, but Keve should be thanking his mother$%&@ing lucky stars I'm not writing his terms - and that instead, he gets these. He doesn't deserve them, and yet he still complains. SIRIUS clearly wanted a war out of this, and why is a mystery to me, but if you guys really support some crap like that then you're all failures and deserve all the misery association with folks like that bring down on you. It won't bring much of anything else. [/quote] You see the issue with this is that: UINE did not raid AiD, a few members decided to go rogue, thus UINE would not pay reps for them because we weren't interested in saving rogues from what they were supposed to get (and deserved). AiD clearly stated on multiple instances that they weren't interested in attacking the rogues, I worked my ass off to get those rogues to start peacing out as per AiDs demands. The rogues didn't want to pay reps and rather fight to ZI, something which went against AiD's number 1 consideration: ending the conflict. I offered to help out the nations attacked by filling them up with tech deals I'm not sure where in this whole sequence of events the tech deals at the end become reps, those tech deals were me trying to help AiD in a situation I had no control over. The fact that UINE was not responsible for the raids means that they did in fact have the two choices you mentioned: attack the rogues or get peace and some tech because I couldn't force reps out of the rogues anyways, because quite honestly I didn't have to propose anything at all other than letting them attack the rogues. The fact that I did try to help AiD has somehow been used to paint me as responsible for the attacks. If you could elaborate on why I'd love that.

[quote name='Caffine1' timestamp='1294553392' post='2569387'] What part is pre-Karma Draconian terms? There's no permanent anything. We're not warring the whole alliance. Their leader gets ZI'd, and the aggrieved alliance gets $36 million. No forced disbandment, no permanent expulsion. [/quote] No permanent expulsion? I think you don't want to bring that fact up as it *was* the case until a few hours ago. Something you decided to rescind, *probably* so you could parade that in front of everybody as you are doing right now. Also, you might want to tell the public, you paragon of justice, how that 36 million isn't really intended as reps for AiD but is actually the cost of letting other government officials of UINE (totally unrelated with the rogues) go without a ZI.

[quote]No, not correct. We were happy with the talks after 2 nations attacked, then all of a sudden 3 more nations attack and UINE changed their stance to no reps before eventually trying to cheat us with tech deals. If it was as one sided as you proclaim, I doubt Keve's allies would've tolerated this decision. [/quote] Ah yes, because [i]clearly[/i] the government of an alliance is bound to *and* expected to pay for a deal you made with a bunch of rogues. Damn better head back 'Rogue 101' class, must've missed the part where they became entitled to enter in negotiations and make decisions on alliances behalf.

[quote name='Caffine1' timestamp='1294552616' post='2569374'] Notice how you haven't seen Polar making a statement of condemnation? Polar are exxtremely fierce allies, and if they didn't agree with this they would have said so. The truth is that Polar believes that Keve messed up as well. Anybody who actually knows what happened (and isn't in denial) agrees that this is quite a reasonable solution. [/quote] Or maybe, like the rest of the community, they are fed up with seeing you guys rehash this situation over the OWF and have made the smarter decision (which the rest of us haven't) to ignore this thread.

[quote name='TheListener' timestamp='1294550771' post='2569340'] I as the Minister of Not-a-member of UINE do hereby state this deal is null and void, please come to me, for any future deals, since I am clearly much more prominent a government than that failsauce of an Emperor keve. [/quote] You sir are defeated! You forget the part where I expressedly mentioned to the other parties that *you* were not allowed to negotiate this issue!

[quote name='Jaymjaym' timestamp='1294550265' post='2569330'] To be fair, same thing can probably be said when any micro gets raided. Anyway, I had no real involvement here aside from being a concerned cousin, so I have no idea about the finer details about the negotiations. This may have been warranted, or it may not based on those proceedings, however based on what I have read, this whole situation really should have ended at the nations being declared rogues. Like I said in the previous thread, who and/or why someone is masked on an alliance's forum is really of no concern to anyone else. [/quote] Ever read the Merchant of Venice? When someone wants a pound of flesh bad enough, they'll use whatever they can get their hands on to get it.

[quote name='EgoFreaky' timestamp='1294548896' post='2569307'] Now let's hope this is the last agreement that has to be made and that we soon all can put this behind us and move on. [/quote] I'll hold you to that when you guys show up in a few weeks saying the deal has been made in bad faith and has to be canceled... once two thirds of the deal has completed.

This announcement saddens me a great deal o/ NNK

[quote name='Cyber Nationz' timestamp='1294207065' post='2564074'] Binocular eyes I see, Perhaps I was rehearsing my Francais [/quote] Dear sir, En Français, the word 'rouge' never has 'd' at the end. Thanks.

Ok, I think it is time to set a few things straight here... There is no mis-education involved here. Those 5 nations knew blatently well what they were doing from day 1. They told me face to face that they knew UINE's raid policy (in fact one of them had participated in writing it months prior) and that they willingly chose to ignore it. In my book that qualifies them as rogues, as per our raiding policy through such actions they open themselves up to any and all repercussions by those they hit. Now, from day 1 I gave AiD the opportunity to hit these nations, as I believe they were well in the right to do so. However, AiD was practical about it and wanted a quick end to the conflict possibly involving reps for their nations. Our 5 nations told me again face to face that they would rather face ZI than give any amount of reps, that was their choice and they knew exactly what they were doing. Now, this action was not sanctioned or organized by UINE so their was no way I was going to force other nations, who had not commited any wrongs, to pay for the actions of the few. Since AiD was still not interested in ZI (or following a military solution) I did what I could to help them out and we came to an agreement. 1) I would would get all nations to peace. 2) I would post a public apology. 3) Since UINE was not at fault, but some members who were deliberately doing something they knew was wrong, I offered to fill the slots of the affected AiD nations with tech deals to help them cope with their loses (which were minor after only 1 night of attacks). People question the morality of tech deals as 'reps'. However, this has nothing to do with the issue at hand. These tech deals were not 'reps' as the alliance here was not at fault. These tech deals were me doing my best to help the 4 affected AiD nations. To think this was done for profit is simply silly. UINE has more than enough buyers within its own AA and to think that I was doing this to somehow benefit the few smaller guys who would send AiD the tech is to be completely ignorant of the value of tech vs money or of the quantity of potential buyers which exist around CN. As far as I am concerned I had met AiD's desire to bring the conflict to its resolution and since the rogues were unwilling to pay for a situation they created by their own hand, I did what I could to help AiD and those which were targeted. Let me be blatantly clear here, theres a difference between someone doing something they are unaware of, doing something wrong by accident or even because they were not educated properly. But when someone does something knowingly of the consequences AND is not willing to pay for their mistakes its a completely different matter. There is no comparaison between the two. Now, theres been talk in this thread of '6 million' dollars of reps. Once again, these are numbers invented by the peanut gallery and they have nothing to do with reality. The actual amount of reps that was thrown around was much more than 6 million, and execuse me, but there was no way a responsible alliance leader would let innocent nations fork that sum over for nations who ignored the guidelines and who weren't willing to dish over anything for a situation of their own making. If select members are not willing to cooperate then I'm not going to force others to take the responsibility for the actions of the few, that's basic commonsense. UINE has always been willing to deal with mistakes genuinely made by newer members or even mistakes made by the government. However, we have always taken a harsh stance against rogues on our AA or the AA of others. This involves, and has always involved, letting the other AA deal with the nation(s) as they see fit. This was not a case were such mistake was made and thus the cost of taking responsibility for it should not fall on the membership at large. For now that is all, I'll answer any questions of course... *Edit* Typo

[quote name='Omniscient1' timestamp='1294100250' post='2562426'] The problem is Sirius isn't shooting to control the world. This is a color unity bloc. We're not out to make the blue team control the world. [/quote] Wow wow wow, wait a minute... We aren't? /me leaves