Unko Kalaikz

[quote name='Sigrun Vapneir' timestamp='1285956198' post='2471236'] Your analysis is interesting, and clearly took some time and effort.[/quote] Thank you, although it was a fairly brief and spur of the moment effort. [quote]This is a key part of the timeline and you have it disastrously wrong, if only by omission. Your "age of unprecedented prosperity and peace" for Q was in fact an era of unipolar arrogance. To hear you tell it, the lulz side was pretty ineffective and incompetent all along, so why do they suddenly become inhumanly powerful propagandists and manipulators overnight just by teaming up with 'some ambitious outcasts?' The lulz0rz did not cause Karma, as you imply repeatedly they were never capable of it. Instead, they hitched a ride on the tsunami of blowback that Pacificas own actions had already set in motion. This is a fundamental misunderstanding caused by your refusal to admit the faults of your own Alliance. [/quote] You misunderstand. I never denied the presence of pride, having faced it as a former enemy of the Order; indeed that is the key weakness that the Enemy seized upon. Even Francoists are human and have human failings, after all, but we also learn and strive to put aside base emotions in favor of realism and applied materialism. [quote=snibbmaster]Hah. I object to the idea of calling all conservative alliances Francoist (although MK is far from conservative). Many strong alliances have rejected your ridiculous doctrine in favor of something else, and remain strong. The NpO, while they were indeed raised on your system, have long ago trashed it in favor of a far more moderate system, not too dissimilar from the ones you preach against. And the MK is as far from Francoism as one could possibly get. What's more, if only chaotic alliances perish and fall (as you say), why are the continuum and all of your "moral" friends not still in control?[/quote] I cannot speak for Polaris but they modified their alliance to fit their analysis of material conditions. Whether that analysis is correct and the specific changes that were undertaken, I am currently not familiar. As to Francoism, I believe only the New Pacific Order is truly Francoist, as few if any have both the cultural background and democratic autocracy necessary to work. "Conservative" alliances as you put it do tend to do better because they focus on the primary goal: removing their interests from the state of nature.

A wider analysis would conclude that the decline of civilization and the temporary return of philosophically lulz or chaos idealizing alliances is the root cause of this and other problems.

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1285895904' post='2470473'] uggh.... GOONS nor \m/ truly bring much to this world other than annoying threads such as this. that being said, i reject any notion that Francoism truly exists anywhere outside of Pacifica. another thing that is quite amusing is this little "fact": "Despite the fact that the Continuum ushered in an age of unprecedented prosperity and peace," that is basically one huge lie. There was so much fear, curbstomps, and mini-wars that occurred during the time of Q as well as a couple of massive wars (WoTC for one) that to claim there was unprecedented prosperity (unless you were in Q or sucked their dick) and there was very little actual peace. [/quote] I disagree. The only reason you generally had to fear was if you decided to be part of an alliance that was antagonistic to the Hegemony. I'm not saying there was never abuse of that power by clinger-ons and smaller allies (like GOONS before... and GOONS today...), or poor decisions made by Pacifica (we're human too ). But the reason why so many embraced Order was because it was good sense, and the francoist policies that brought Pacifica security and prosperity spilled over to less gifted alliances who were eager to seek the light.

[quote name='Trikoupis' timestamp='1285837982' post='2469588'] The answer is to be found –partially at least- in the doctrine itself. Having developed for long the promise of order and civility, NPO has prepared its own downfall, the Vox demand being nothing more than the demand that the promise NPO made to the world be, finally, realised. All –well, almost all- the cronies, allies as well as enemies of NPO having actually been assimilated to the Francoist doctrine and adopted authoritarian forms of government, there was no excuse left why they shouldn’t be independent. The old “we are more organised, we are more serious, we are more efficient, we are more civilised” NPO argument, just couldn’t stand anymore, since those treated as children, barbaric tribes, underdeveloped alliances had actually adopted NPO tactics long ago. At the end they revolted and claimed, naturally enough, that they be set free.[/quote] This is incorrect on several points. NPO never made any promises to the world... NPO doctrine has simply been to remove its members from the state of nature. However, the security and stability that was established on the red sphere soon spilled over to it's allies; Pacifica in my estimation never specifically desired the position of world leader but as the best alliance it increasingly took upon that mantle. Democratic Autocracy is the most efficient form of government. Additionally, imitation does not always lead to success. This was true in my case as Emperor of IAA, and in other cases as well. The cultural background and intellectual foundation of NPO is what truly sets it a notch higher than other logistically and militarily potent but less sophisticated alliances. Later on you describe Pacifican rule as "despotic," which is unfounded. Having been on both sides of the Order's wrath It is my opinion that in general Pacifica merely attempted to protect its interests. It was the times when the Hegemony made poor decisions and made unnecessary enemies that provided enough activist discontent for a popular drive to karma to develop. Eurosoviets a long time ago published an essay that comrade Vladimir [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?app=blog&module=display&section=blog&blogid=104&showentry=555"]discussed[/url] some time ago on his blog which dealt with incorrectly analyzing our world using the measures of other realms. As Eurosoviets noted in 2007 [i]"there is no grand international proletariat."[/i] It also follows that there are no masters or colonies in the sense used in other realms (ooc=earth). Francoism is really about breaking down barriers, not antagonizing non-existent economic classes, and I suggest you study it some more.

I'm going to commit a full response when I get back to my villa; but I will begin by saying comparing Pacifican political philosophy to colonialism is a flawed premise.

[quote name='Kevanovia' timestamp='1285832141' post='2469529'] The only reason I am not terribly upset that GOONS has returned is that they bring more members to Planet Bob. If Bob was on the rise, than I would love to see them rolled into oblivion. [/quote] New nations hanging around this festering lulz zombie is not a good thing.

[quote name='Biazt' timestamp='1285833915' post='2469556'] This right here. Saying lulz on the GOONS forums is usually not tolerated and will get you ridiculed on IRC. [/quote] Well, at least you guys realize lulz is nothing to be proud of.

Thanks for proving my points with the one sentence replies fellas.

Moderator: Posted in wrong forum, can this be moved to World Affairs subforum?

With the fall of the Continuum and the achievement of Vox's goals we have witnessed the return of something many casual observers did not anticipate. In the old Order before the onset of the dark ages almost all "lulz" alliances had become untenable and either were destroyed or disbanded. The more lulzy the alliance the quicker the demise. This is quite natural; as global society develops alliances which follow Francoist principles (in name or otherwise) prosper while those with inconsistent or absent philosophies tend to flounder. An exception to this could be Mushroom Kingdom, which of course benefited from former Pacifican officers who were raised in a Francoist environment. In fact the eradication and decline of lulz was in a way too successful. Vox Populi, which was a movement mostly lead by a combination of lulz remnants and ambitious outcasts, managed to successfully convince the world that order and civilization was a [i]bad[/i] thing. Despite the fact that the Continuum ushered in an age of unprecedented prosperity and peace, many reminisced for the days of war, glory and conquest, when leaders proved their merit on the battlefield rather than the office. [i]Stagnant[/i] became the new description of world affairs. In hindsight we can see just how right Vladimir was in describing the Voxian ideology as [url="http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/Despotic_Primitivism"]"despotic primitivism,"[/url] considering that the movements popular appeal was based upon romanticization of earlier, primitive eras in history and a rejection of order and civilization. As comrade Vladimir noted: [quote]These [Vox Populi founders] names are significant for their place in relation to the existing structures on Planet Bob before they became founders; namely, the majority of them had been rejected and come to exist outside of said structure. We can begin therefore to understand their opposition to it – it is the environment in which they failed to survive.[/quote] Why did they fail to survive? Quite simply, because of a rejection of the principles of civilization. They were warmongers, schemers, or lulzmeisters who were unable to adapt to an ordered world; so their motivation was simple and practical: destabilize the world to a point where they could thrive, at the expense of everyone else. And as we see with the Karma war, they have largely succeeded. What do we have today as a result? Political instability, the return of tech raiding, reformation of lulz alliances like GOONS and \m/. The world is still a long way off to economically recovering to prewar levels. We have indeed returned to a more primitive state of affairs, just as the warlords and lulzmeisters intended. This chaotic state of affairs drags all alliances closer to the state of nature and retards growth and development in all fields. This state of affairs is cherished by the (philosophically) chaos-embracing alliances. Which nicely ties to the next point. Many wonder why Mushroom Kingdom and other alliances ally with GOONS. After all, they are physically insignificant, not even ranking amongst the top twenty alliances. They are poorly organized and relatively close to the state of nature, with inadequate leadership and poor discipline in the ranks, as demonstrated by Schattenman recently in his article [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=92632"]Institutional Anarchy.[/url] Yet they seem to be the standardbearer of the forces of chaos, just as Pacifica was the standardbearer of Order in the days of prosperity and reason. Which is exactly why they are sheltered and defended by MK and others. GOONS is such a terrible alliance that it is the perfect poster boy for the dark ages; engaged in barbaric tech raiding, a complete lack of intellectual substance, and a level of lulz that puts banned member to shame. For those who fight against Order and progress GOONS is the alliance to aspire to, with ideals of degeneracy that are impractical yet lauded all the same. Ironically their allies will not actually embrace the state of nature, because that would weaken them. Hypocrisy? I leave that to you to decide. It is interesting to note that Ejayrazz and his Ninjas have volunteered to be the frontlines against lulz and chaos by attacking GOONS. I believe this is simply the first tremor of popular discontent with the forces of chaos, a mass rejection of dark age mentality and a general desire to return to Order. Which will, if history is any lesson to us, inevitably occur.

[quote name='JT Jag' timestamp='1285822614' post='2469399'] We're pretty pleasant guys when you get to know us! [/quote] I don't doubt it. Some GOONS seem like cool people. But as allies...

I'm curious why anybody would want an alliance with GOONS in the first place. Well done Ejay. I think what we are seeing is a reverse Vox Populi beginning to take shape; a grassroots movement of the masses that seeks civilization and order over barbarism and lulz.

NVM accidental post

[quote name='Freelancer' timestamp='1285444618' post='2464487'] Opinion's vary, however Vladimir does in fact have something special, I bolded your own answer, while you may deny the fact, it's a talent not many have. He does it with pure precision. [/quote] I cannot deny that arguing the truth is a talent many here don't exercise.

I hardly believe I qualify as "the masses," nor do I believe comrade Vladimir to possess special powers of influence, he merely argues correctly in a consistent manner... which won me over in time.

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1285324589' post='2463193'] That wasn't a "lol ur allied to lolegion" jab, it was a "you have Stockholm Syndrome - just like Legion" jab. Hope this helps. [/quote]I suppose comrade Dementual and other former enemies also suffer this syndrome. Honestly, I don't feel much like a hostage, being a full Pacifican and the alliance bangah taking care of small problems. (ooc) although I do have a strong attachment with NPO... it stems from RL(/ooc)

[quote name='Arcturus Jefferson' timestamp='1285313637' post='2463147'] Whoa, man. That's like, far out. Anyway Junkalunka, at least you joined up with the NPO after all your talk about how great they are. If you guys don't already have one you should set up a dedicated subforum for recycling Comrade Vlad's garbage, spare the rest of us. [/quote] Thank you former comrade. I must admit NPO exceeded my highest expectations, I do think however you could do FCC some good taking some time to study our "garbage" as I noticed you have not grown at all since I left almost three years ago.

[quote name='Voytek' timestamp='1285308089' post='2463095'] So you're essentially Legion personified? [/quote] I'm guessing that's supposed to be a jab... but on the converse I'd much rather be like our ally Legion than your ally GOONS.

[quote name='Michael von Prussia' timestamp='1285292737' post='2462842'] The difference between attacking an alliance for doing wrong, and attacking a nation for personal profit, is so large and glaring that this topic is irrelevant by its own nature. [/quote] Excellent point. Raids are purely opportunistic and their only purpose is to steal tech; alliance wars are generally presented as defensive in nature, as a retaliatory or punitive measure.

[quote name='Banksy' timestamp='1285290328' post='2462769'] Only by ignoring the facts. So far none of this is standing up to closer inspection. [/quote] Even not counting the number of AA ghost raids that [i]were[/i] cleared before hand, It appears that the rest of the data and overall theme is still correct, no?

[quote name='King Vladimir VIII' timestamp='1285181127' post='2461190'] I do not buy into the idea that violence in our world can be equated to chaos or a lack of order. As the OP pointed out, our world is one that inherently revolves around violence and the threat of war. The steps we take in developing our nations nearly always relate to the threat of war, and the stability of an alliance is a direct result of the intrinsic violence of our world. A Bob without violence would be a world without purpose, overrun with circular arguments and pollsters... and [i]that[/i] would be true chaos. [/quote] Remember that violence is just one form of conflict.

Another excellent production and research analysis by Schattenman. We can clearly witness how GOONS is very close to the state of nature; through tech-raiding it raises the level of internal and external conflict considerably. Indeed its poor leadership seeks out unnecessary conflict and depends upon its larger allies to be the muscle to their will. Any Francoist can clearly see that GOONS is creeping toward irreversible demise should they not improve.