Seerow

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329947898' post='2925744'] This is not the nature of Bronies and we will mercilessly expel and level anyone in our ranks who thinks that running a scam operation of this nature is a good idea. This just isn't who we are. We are honest and upstanding ponyfolk. [/quote] Only if it can be proven. The case is based on the idea there is no proof because the seller didn't save his exchange with the UE member. You can say nobody will take advantage of it, that doesn't mean nobody will. And if you're not going to trust your members saying it was unsolicited when no proof indicates otherwise, it raises again the question of what is this policy for?

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1329947296' post='2925738'] This has been covered in the thread; this policy only applies to unsolicited deals, period. As much of a problem as I have with it on the whole, they at least had that much foresight. [/quote] They've also however said that it is the buyer's responsibility to keep screenshots of any contact with UE sellers to prove that they accepted the deal. If you don't screenshot it, it's your word vs theirs, and their government will obviously side with their member. This puts UE members in a great position to prey upon unwitting buyers who aren't aware of this policy and keep solid records of every exchange they have with a seller.

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329945313' post='2925717'] Nopony is forcing you to send us aid. My issue is in the act of wiring money over to UE nations with an attached [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrink_wrap_contract"]shrinkwrap contract[/url]. If you wish to negotiate a transaction, [i]do so before wiring money.[/i] Do not wire money over to UE and then just expect we magically agree to your contract. A contract can be had by: 1) A UE nation actively soliciting tech deals, by going to MK/Umb/NG/VE/whoever and asking if anyone wants to buy tech; 2) Your government coming to our government and getting put on the white list; or 3) A nation holds a PM exchange with one of ours, during which a tech selling contract is negotiated BEFORE any money is wired over. (We recommend that your nation maintain screen shots of such exchanges) [/quote] So now it's our responsibility to maintain screenshots of all contact with your members, or else they can jack our money, and the only form of recompense is causing us to lose more tech? In what way do you believe this is a good policy?

[quote name='HeroofTime55' timestamp='1329944455' post='2925700'] I acknowledge a personal flaw here: I am extraordinarily obsessed with making the language as precise as possible; What would be the definition of "coordinated" here? We could get fifty offers from an alliance and the gov could claim them as individual acts. I would rather not make assertions in an endless cycle of "no u" debates. There was a punitive attitude in the writing of it, as it was done in response to an impending assault on our aid slots. Many of the parties know full well the context, and are feigning outrage for PR gains. Techbombing is a coordinated assault on unknowing newbies, with the intention of tripping up tech deals so that threats and extortion can be carried out. An experienced nation knows better than to accept aid of this nature. A newbie sees a $3m offer in his inbox and &*&^es himself, clicking accept without a second thought. [/quote] Whatever your reasoning for this is, your response makes it worse, not better. This statement won't stop whatever people have planned, they'll still do it, and when you don't pay tech, yes they will still be upset with you. Posting a general statement like this isn't going to get you out of paying for money accepted. And as has already been pointed out, your refund policy makes things worse for buyers who get screwed, not better.

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1329943690' post='2925691'] What I'm saying is that if there is a nation who legitimately didn't know of your policy and has a valid claim for a "refund", they have no reason to want to do so. They have all the economic incentive to just let UE keep the money. If they go through the refund process it will use up [i]at least[/i] 10 days of a slot which is equal to ~33 tech, or ~$1M. This is on top of the 10 days that the initial aid takes to expire, which totals ~67 tech (~$2M) in losses that are a direct result of this policy and of no fault of the buying nation. If they don't do the refund (which is their best option), they're then out ~33 tech (~$1M) plus the initial ~$3M. [b][i]This policy has the potential to cause unnecessary economic harm to completely innocent nations.[/b][/i] [/quote] Seriously, the only way to make any 'refund' policy remotely fair would be to send tech to the person equivalent to what they paid for... in which case why bother with this policy at all instead of just completing the tech deal? This policy is robbery dressed up pretty, nothing more.

Funny, I always thought ponies were supposed to be all about friendship and love, not stealing. Have I been wrongfully misjudging this show all this time?

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329879222' post='2925380'] I heard something similar from a few individuals within the now defunct MJ bloc. Where there is smoke there is usually fire. [/quote] In this day and age, smoke means somebody smoking far more often than a fire.

[quote]The risks were lower back in the day, and encouraged action. Nowadays, every losing war only furthers the stats gap between the top alliances and everyone else, and exponentially increasing extortion doesn't help the situation in the slightest. Nobody wants to put even more distance between themselves and say Umbrella or TOP, because that just increases the effort and resources required for a victory on the next attempt. Every failure increases the difficulty of the next attempt by increasing margins. It's not the size of people's balls that have shrunk; The cost-benefit equation has altered to make it idiotic to make the moves that made rational sense to make back in the day, when we didn't have alliances of 100k average NS and a guarantee that you're going to be extorted for everything you have the next time you lose a war. [/quote] tl;dr: You agree with what I've been saying for 4 or 5 years now. Tech dealing is ruining planet Bob.

[quote name='zzzptm' timestamp='1329578421' post='2923375'] Empty ideas from an empty vessel. [/quote] What an accurate summation of your posting, but it seems kind of off topic here.

About time. And some tasty tech to boot. Congrats TOP.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329495844' post='2922627'] If I am in longer in your plane of reality, how am I communicating with people? Weiss, stop being a moron. [/quote] Latent psionic powers?

[quote name='Xiphosis' timestamp='1329369753' post='2921533'] The above: UPN. [/quote] bros clarified on air it was a case of an anonymous info dump. Given he outright admitted to looking through UPN's government forums, I see no reason why he would lie about this. If someone you don't know passing you information and saying "do with it what you will" constitutes spying, I'd be willing to bet there are very few rulers on Bob who have not spied by that standard. The accusation was bros using his forum access to get information, we have one case of that confirmed.

[quote name='Charles Stuart' timestamp='1329367142' post='2921505'] Bros is the worst spy ever. [/quote] Agreed, bros is far too honest to be a good spy. As soon as asked directly he tells everything. bros But the point remains that bros did debunk every claim that he was hacking forums, abusing FTP access, or anything along those lines. The only case that was legit 'spying' was the UPN thing, where they actually let him maintain admin access. Interestingly, the only people who really should have any problem with the spying (UPN) have said "I would have done the same thing if I were you" and accepted bros' apology. Archon stated pretty clearly on air had they requested reparations or a public apology or anything of the sort, they would have gotten it. At this point anyone who wants to continue to try to press the issue is less outraged at what actually happened, and more trying to push on a personal vendetta that is completely unrelated.

[quote name='Roadie' timestamp='1329273856' post='2920820'] *snip* Assigning targets did not mean your nations performed, they were largely turtles (Not talking about 30k nations - up to 50k at the beginning - where we had you outnumbered). Upper tier I'm sure everyone knows we used that super awesome Legion strategy so there really isn't much to talk about there other than the few we did have out [b]got sent packing in a big hurry largely by Umbrella, not MK[/b] - though that could be due to the [b]insane activity levels of Um.[/b] *snip* [/quote] [quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329279507' post='2920870'] Basically, what MK wanted was for Umbrella to handle every alliance [b]before their overactive upper tier could get to it.[/b] They got hurt because they were prone to overdeclaring, something they decried PC for doing in 2009. [/quote] Emphasis mine. Thanks Roq, for defending our activity levels even when you are out to destroy us. Glad we could debunk that little rumor so quickly.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329276455' post='2920844'] So, Valhalla, Dark Templar, and allies, will you leave us out to dry or step up to the plate? [/quote] I'm confused, are you asking for them to step up and attack us? If so I'm sorry I ever doubted you, you really are a good friend to me

People lack the attention span to fight at their full attention for months straight? Say it ain't so! Even at our most innactive, we still fought harder than the vast majority of alliances involved in that war. Anyone who decides to believe the line that MK are paper tigers is welcome to try their hand at it, but don't be surprised when you pull a stump back.

[quote name='hobbies0310' timestamp='1329269042' post='2920740'] Spying is bad, I agree. Now why dont you guys do something about it and attack them? If you wont do anything about it then just shut it. [/quote] But Roq is in Sparta, who is uninvolved, and have no motive to get involved except for Roq. Even if they did get involved, can you imagine Sparta trying to declare war on MK? We'd get about 12 wars declared on us, then 80% of the alliance would hit peace mode.

I figure worst case we see a few people wagging a finger at us threateningly and people have more forum downtime as bros stops fixing their forums for them. Assuming all of the allegations and proof is real, the pretty 'meh' intel gained from bros is probably still inadequate payment for the effort he puts in to make sure half of Bob's forums work. [size=1]Disclaimer: This is not the official position of the Mushroom Kingdom, I speak for myself, and have not held any position of importance within the alliance for more years than I care to count.[/size]

[quote name='Garion' timestamp='1329252198' post='2920531'] I'm not sure about what this will accomplish. Probably nothing. [/quote] Roq seems to expect MK's closest allies to drop on them for an incident of spying from over a year ago that they likely already knew about, and even if they didn't as far as I can tell don't really care about.

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329239206' post='2920382'] Meh, I remember talking to Vektor at one point and I found out he lived in SoCal. That's about it. Oh, and getting Seerow off a ZI-list, but you don't care about that. I love this analogy, though. [/quote] I'm confused how did me getting off the ZI list come up here? Either way, it was appreciated. After being told to go $%&@ myself for about a year and a half, getting me off was a good thing. But seriously, I'm saying this not as a member of MK, but as the one person here who has known you longer than anyone else on Bob, and probably has more reason than anyone else in MK to feel sympathy towards you-You need to back off. You are taking negative comments from a few people, and blowing them up out of proportion. You have gripped on to this "destroy MK" platform and are holding on so tightly you seem incapable of letting go. However, even if everything did work out exactly as you hope, and you got all of MK's treaties canceled, and MK rolled immediately after, MK would still survive. As a community, we aren't going anywhere. If your goal is to destroy our community, you won't be successful. If your goal is to make the rest of Bob hate us, you're a pretty long way off of accomplishing that. If the whole RoK thing a few weeks ago didn't do it, some year+ old spy info isn't going to do it either. You are lashing out in petty spitefulness, and rather than accomplishing what you want, all you are doing is burning bridges with those who would call you friend. And for what? Denial and 1337 being mean to you? Quinoa and Tamerlane trolling? Is it really worth it to you to trash all your good will and relationships to get back at a few people? You've had plenty of time now to vent and blow off steam. Everyone in the world now knows you had issues with some people in MK, and how certain decisions were made. A lot of your gripes still seem irrational (I still don't get why you're so upset about the MK-TOP treaty for example), but at least a few have a real root concerns. But at this point you've gone way beyond venting those concerns or getting payback, and are just making the situation worse. Rather than making people see you're right, your continued lashing out is turning more people against you, and gaining you support only of the scum of the planet that prior to the last few months you never wanted anything to do with.

Unknown Smurf sure seems to know a lot about how to spy on forums using FTP access. makes u think...

[quote name='Jacapo Saladin' timestamp='1329201335' post='2920012'] If they were fake we would have no way of knowing, considering he screencapped them with his toaster. [/quote] My toaster might have higher resolution.

[quote name='Drai' timestamp='1329198964' post='2919976'] I think the only MK people who 'outright lied' were those who had no idea. [/quote] Nah man, the entirety of MK received that same PM. Don't you remember? We clearly all knew and were just struggling to cover it up.

[quote name='tamerlane' timestamp='1329198311' post='2919962'] I'll let him rub my helmet but I'm afraid he won't want to. After all, I deceived him. [/quote] What's really impressive is how you managed to conceal the truth after allegedly sleeping with him. Do you have a sister or someone else to stand in for you in situations like this?

[quote name='Roquentin' timestamp='1329197014' post='2919919'] Meh, whatever you have I'm not afraid. I don't know what you're referring to, but I hope it's good. I don't mean much as an individual. The ideas have been communicated. [/quote] But we can't lose you before finding out what Nagasaki is!