delendum

I just want you to know, so far I'm feeling left out. Also

You're right, I am basing it on public forums, and you have a point - I'm sure you received plenty of support from your friends as well. However, they were not the friends your move screwed over. Hopefully for them, they will have the benefit of this position in the future as well. I certainly don't see any reason why they wouldn't support you, nobody was sympathetic towards \m/. Like I said, if it was worth it, then it was right for you. Unfortunately, it was the wrong thing to do should you care about the positions you've ended up putting some of your friends.

Your notions of what makes a move right or wrong (or not appropriate if you so desire) were very subjective and selfish in this case, seeing as you've pretty much disregarded what your allies thought would be the right thing to do. There is a difference between doing something which is generally perceived as being right, and doing something which you personally feel is right, and I don't see how you could possibly compare this to Karma. There have been plenty of voices cheering your move, but I personally find it a bit strange if nothing else that they should predominantly come from people who weren't your friends. Don't be naive in thinking they were all supporting you because the cause was just, after all, you didn't see them going for it, and most of your supporters would have had no allies to sacrifice in doing what you did. The move itself wasn't smart because of the price you ended up paying, and it wasn't right for the price you forced some of your friends to pay for you. Though if you think it was worth it, then this move was indeed the right thing to do, at least in what yourselves are concerned.

I suppose so, though you can only tell once the dust settles down, and it looks like a long time before that happens. In this case, there was also a base price paid in allies. All in all it may have been a fun move, but it was pretty far from smart.

Well you still ended up fighting their allies, I guess you weren't smart enough.

Have fun guys. No matter how this plays out, you will still have a friend in MK.

Good luck guys.

You can't blame us for the treaty web mess. As an alliance who has been politically isolated for the better part of our existence, we simply inherited a system other people started and propagated, and unfortunately we need to be a part of it in order to survive. Polaris has just as many high level treaties as we do, yet you don't see us ever having put them in a situation even remotely similar to this. This world is anything but one sided at this moment, in fact, there are two rather obvious poles staring straight at each other. There have been two times in recent history where they nearly declared on one of our DIRECT treaty partners. This time, they declared on RoK's direct treaty partner, and by letting this escalate, they've put us in a position of having to watch our friends kill each other. The motivation for this whole mess was enforcing their own brand of justice and a hurt ego over petty words. Since they so often have an obvious problem with our side of the woods, what prompted them to sign with us in the first place? edit: fixed some you's.

We didn't force them to be allied with us. If we were limiting them, I would have been perfectly fine with a cancellation prior to them taking action. Also, every alliance here has their own beliefs, and no two alliances hold beliefs truly identical to each other. To presume to enforce your own set of beliefs arbitrarily on people is arrogant to say the least. If you think it's perfectly fine for one of your allies to attack another one of your allies, then good for you. If you think it's justified for one of your allies to disregard all your efforts and continue to push for something even though it would end up leading to your allies fighting each other, again, good for you. As far as sovereignty goes, nobody is forced to sign with us, and I'd hope that anybody who feels it's acceptable to attack our other allies on account of a moral outrage, takes this as an invitation to cancel on us. I know i'll personally thank them for it.

You need to get your "who didn't accept what"'s right first. It was Grub who didn't accept the word "wrong", not \m/. We never defended \m/'s actions, actually we called them what they were from the beginning: retarded. Responding to a retarded action with more retarded action is not the way though, especially not when you have no obligation to do so and end up !@#$ting all over your allies in the process.

We were a bit more than pissed when Polaris nearly did to us what they did now to RoK, namely attacking a direct ally of ours on account of moral outrage or whatever else you want to call it. Call it what you will, it was a pattern that raised serious concerns, and we were sympathetic to the situation RoK was put through. Regardless of how much we tried to reason with them before they attacked, we were still willing to show support, but them refusing to reach peace on account of a synonym was the straw that broke the camel's back. This is obviously a complex story, but in the end they managed to prove that their allies don't really matter so long as there's ego and "morals" involved. That could be perfectly fine for some people, but it isn't for us.

When you post your view, it's an argument, but when we do it, it's propaganda?

\m/ were not our allies. Contrary to what some of you seem to fancy, MK doesn't make a habit out of trying to advise on policies belonging to alliances we are not tied directly to. We fully believe RoK should have handled this, and I'm sure they would have, even if that meant eventually cancelling on them if no agreement was reached. Unfortunately that really doesn't work when somebody plugs their ears and goes "LALALALALALALAALALAL I CAN'T HEAR YOU" while charging head first into the wall.

We've been calling everybody involved in this mess stupid from the beginning, yet it stops being funny when it escalates to it's true potential and you are forced to watch your friends fight each other on account of one man's ego. What can I say, I wish only the best of inter-ally fights in your future, you seem to fancy the idea.

I don't even know how to reply to this. MK has spent the last few days doing nothing else but trying to reason with Polaris, through any means we had available. And not for the sake of \m/, which most us don't really give a $%&@ about, but for the sake of not finding ourselves in this retarded situation we are in now. As you can plainly see, it all fell on deaf ears.

Wait, hold on a bit. Fair by whose standards? If my memory serves me right, the whole raiding incident was settled to everyone's satisfaction well before Polaris declared on \m/. Like it or not, it was just a matter of what YOU considered fair, and I don't see why the rest of the world has to abide by your views on that. Alas, I was referring to reaching peace after you had already declared on \m/, which believe it or not would have been attained and we could've all went home, had it not been wrong instead of not appropriate written on the piece of paper. Though yeah, you could consider me a lost case by this point, there is no way you'll get me to agree your actions so far were justified.

Just because Grub suddenly felt inspired to voluntarily launch himself on a crusade, we were obliged to think the same way he did? I don't remember MK ever signing the world police petition, and I doubt we would have signed this treaty had we known that's what they planned on doing. Even so, it could all have been settled by reaching peace before it ever got to this point, if not for the power of semantics jump starting his ego into overdrive once more. What it comes down to in the end is that bashing \m/ mattered more to them than putting their allies in this position.

Lets get something straight, \m/'s allies were still their allies even though they $%&@ed up. It doesn't take a scientist to figure out where attacking them might escalate, and there were countless other means of striving for these community standard goals in the long run if that was really what this was all about. FOK had a choice of letting their allies burn alone or come to their assistance. And please, I prefer the term "not appropriate".

I don't know what view you have on offensive clauses, but if they're written on a treaty, I'm guessing it's because they were intended on being used. FOK supported their ally. The only reason I'm criticizing you is because you held all they keys: you were the one who could have refrained from doing this, and you were the one who could have settled it with peace before it escalated. In both instances, ego's prevailed. Hey, MK likes war just as much as the next guy (even more than most), but the thought of attacking an ally's ally never really appealed to us as a good way to rid ourselves of boredom. We're just silly like that. (inb4 BUT MK IT WAS AN ALLY OF AN ALLY OF AN ALLY)

I can't believe you think MK would shred any of its allies over Polar's desire to enforce "community standards". We didn't have a choice in this, it was forced upon us, despite our pleas. Oh how silly of me, I should have known Polar had a sudden revelation and realized MK's side of the web are evil enablers. You'd think they would have cancelled on us and RoK first, or were they just trying to save us with this move? Thank god for daddy. I didn't know the NSO supported the larger community standard picture. I could have sworn you were recruiting from neutral alliances just a while ago. Aren't you guys suppose to be all evil and devious?

Keep chugging on the ally of an ally of an ally argument, it's not like you're currently at war with one of our best friends and this whole !@#$%^&* conflict will escalate into us having friends killing each other on both sides. It's obvious MK was wrong in asking you not to attack \m/, your little moral battle was far more important than this. Oh, and reaching peace was just not appropriate it seems. Your opinion on our treaty doesn't change the fact that it is pretty much a sinking ship by this point. I personally like a lot of Polar's members, as most of MK do, but a treaty between us simply can not exist anymore. Of course, that's just my humble opinion until (and if) a cancellation is posted.

We reminded you of treaties ever since you expressed your intention to hit \m/, but Polaris doesn't really care much about those lately. You are correct, we still have a treaty together. I personally hope it won't be for much longer.

You could always move to purple, I'm sure they'd welcome you with open arms.

Let the bodies hit the floor! Let the bodies hit the floor! Let the bod... *delendum falls asleep and slips off his chair*

You and STA both have my love, and I agree in full with the points you raise. I admit (as I have earlier) that what I'm doing now is very poor form. I just don't take it lightly when an ally tells me "we don't care what our allies think, so long as we feel strongly about something" and flaunt it like it's something to be proud of. That was just a slap in my face (and not mine alone), as somebody who does feel pretty strongly about this, but out of respect intended to just shut up about it. Regardless, I've said my piece and hopefully proved my point. I'll now tip my hat and leave the floor.