World, we have a problem

[Guppy Fish]

[img]http://i55.tinypic.com/ofolz7.jpg[/img]

The Grey Council has been launching attacks and smear campaigns against the Fellowship. The image above verifies my points found in the topic [url=http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=99677]here[/url].

Therefore, the Fellowship hereby declares war upon the Grey Council. (Not THAT war, real war.) Peace will be offered whenever GC decides to recognize this.

[LittleRena]

Clearly edited, no message window is that big

Good luck.

[Guppy Fish]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1299979413' post='2662102']
Clearly edited, no message window is that big

Good luck.
[/quote]

pshh,

EDIT: Oh, I just got it.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Guppy Fish

[PIMPTOPIA]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1299979413' post='2662102']
Clearly edited, no message window is that big

Good luck.
[/quote]
S/he could have zoomed in.

[LittleRena]

I was joking around, lol.

[Frostfirefox]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1299981740' post='2662162']
I was joking around, lol.
[/quote]

Jokes aren't allowed, this is the OWF. :3

Serious business.

[LittleRena]

I appologies for joking.

[Mark Reynolds]

Guppy Fish, it might surprise you to learn this but tournament edition has resets every two months. That means when a five member alliance gets raided by a member of a considerably larger alliance, the small alliance does not have anything to lose by retaliating. In other words, there are risks to raiding. And there are very big risks to raiding an alliance that had just retaliated against a raider. If your alliance is as disorganised as you have repeatedly told us, perhaps you should have avoided raiding other alliances until you had sorted out your internal problems.

I would be most interested if you could show me where we have conducted a smear campaign against your alliance. I know that you keep denying that you are in any kind of position of authority and you want me to retract that statement. However, you have rather weakened your case by publically announcing a decleration of war against us, as these sort of things are traditionally issued by or on behalf of the government of an alliance. You may only be a de facto official picking up the slack because you perceive your leadership to be inactive, but you are still a leader.

Even if I had any reason to want to make your alliance look foolish in the eyes of the world, I doubt I would be able to compete with the job you've done over the last few days.

[Karolina]

Aren't you guys already at war?

[Guppy Fish]

Mark Reynolds: In peace talks, Master_Ninja obstinately refused to recognize the insults and threats in your PM.
Karolina: It used to be more of a raid retaliation and etc. stuff. Now I'm calling in the actual war guys... for real war...

[Mark Reynolds]

He saw and replied to the public statement I issued acknowledging a state of war, and he had taken the war nuclear before I made that announcement, so it would hardly seem necessary for TF to subsequently issue a DoW.

[Guppy Fish]

[quote name='Mark Reynolds' timestamp='1299985660' post='2662215']
He saw and replied to the public statement I issued acknowledging a state of war, and he had taken the war nuclear before I made that announcement, so it would hardly seem necessary for TF to subsequently issue a DoW.
[/quote]

It is, given the situation. This used to be a skirmish; it's about to be escalated.

[Mark Reynolds]

[quote name='Guppy Fish' timestamp='1299985280' post='2662213']
Mark Reynolds: In peace talks, Master_Ninja obstinately refused to recognize the insults and threats in your PM.
Karolina: It used to be more of a raid retaliation and etc. stuff. Now I'm calling in the actual war guys... for real war...
[/quote]
I believe that Master Ninja and Dolphin made our position quite clear multiple times during the lengthy IRC conversations; we don't want you to raid us again. Neither of them were able to deduce what it was that you wanted because you were unable to make a coherent and logical argument. I can post the IRC logs if you really want to embarass yourself even more.

The "actual war guys"? Do you mean you have actually got members who are both organised and actually know that if you are going to buy 1k infra, a wonder and a bunch of improvements it might be an idea to invest in one or two soldiers?

If you have some "actual war guys" (whatever that means; why bother playing TE if you aren't a war guy?) then either your alliance is not disorganised as you repeatedly claimed, or you went cap in hand to another alliance because you need bailing out in a war against a five member alliance with no nukes, which you personally chose to start. Are you a liar or merely inept?

You have conspicuoulsy failed to explain why it is that you claim to have no power in your alliance, and yet you have issued a (redundant) DoW and in sending these fabled "actual war guys", now claim to be in charge of your military strategy.

[KOwens06]

GC give them hell. If this continues I will join your ranks to make Guppy eat his words.

o/ GC

[Master Ninja]

[quote name='Guppy Fish' timestamp='1299985280' post='2662213']
Mark Reynolds: In peace talks, Master_Ninja obstinately refused to recognize the insults and threats in your PM.
Karolina: It used to be more of a raid retaliation and etc. stuff. Now I'm calling in the actual war guys... for real war...
[/quote]

We have discussed this at length Guppy Fish. I told you we were more than happy to acknowledge that you were threatened and insulted by the PM Mark Reynolds sent you. But rather than reiterate what I felt I explained relatively clearly, I will just show them.

[spoiler]Mar 12 15:10:13 * Fish (Mibbit@coldfront-DA57E6CA.dhcp.embarqhsd.net) has joined #gc
Mar 12 15:10:22 <Fish> asdfjkl;
Mar 12 15:10:28 <Fish> hi
Mar 12 15:10:34 <Master_Ninja> Hi.
Mar 12 15:10:50 <Fish> thanks for that, Dolphin
Mar 12 15:10:57 <Dolphin> ?
Mar 12 15:11:17 <Dolphin> What? I was hoping that I'd get high enough odds to hit you today, but it is still below 30
Mar 12 15:11:19 <Dolphin> sad ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:11:39 <Master_Ninja> I still attack when I am at 5%. You get underdog bonuses then.
Mar 12 15:11:52 <Fish> lol
Mar 12 15:11:55 <Fish> that's 5-15 though
Mar 12 15:12:10 <Dolphin> yea well, you have no money master
Mar 12 15:12:11 <Dolphin> I do
Mar 12 15:12:14 <Dolphin> It costs a ton to loose
Mar 12 15:12:14 <Dolphin> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:12:34 <Master_Ninja> Actually, for some reason, even if the reports say I lose money, I never do.
Mar 12 15:12:43 <Fish> haha
Mar 12 15:12:48 <Fish> that's because
Mar 12 15:12:54 <Fish> soldiers and tanks you lose are added in
Mar 12 15:13:06 <Dolphin> Oh really? Nice
Mar 12 15:13:11 <Fish> as equipment... your soldiers when losing rarely drop wads of cash
Mar 12 15:13:13 <Fish> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:13:20 <Master_Ninja> Ah, that would explain it.
Mar 12 15:13:21 <Dolphin> If that means losses are being capped to 10K for me I'd be happy
Mar 12 15:13:30 <Dolphin> Its a pain to see 25K losses when attacking ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:13:41 <Fish> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:13:47 <Dolphin> I don't mind rebuying though. Hell, half the time I'm just suiciding my guys so i can rebuy them for defense
Mar 12 15:13:58 <Fish> lol
Mar 12 15:13:59 <Dolphin> Cause I know Fish is going to hit me again ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:14:05 <Dolphin> Actually, I don't really care about you Fish. You always win
Mar 12 15:14:10 <Fish> haha
Mar 12 15:14:11 <Dolphin> I buy decent troops I can keep off your minions
Mar 12 15:14:23 <Fish> not. my. minions ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:14:35 <Fish> if they were my minions they'd be my strength and demolishing you ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:14:44 <Dolphin> Haq Parast got lucky today though. 60 and 70 odds against him and he won both
Mar 12 15:14:48 <Dolphin> oh well, bound to happen
Mar 12 15:14:55 <Fish> lol
Mar 12 15:15:12 <Fish> I attacked a guy I was bound to lose against for casualty purposes..
Mar 12 15:15:15 <Fish> and won on accident >_>
Mar 12 15:15:28 <Fish> oh and if we don't peace by today that's going to be a waste of my nuke
Mar 12 15:15:34 <Master_Ninja> I did that once. Had a 5% chance of Victory. It was crazy.
Mar 12 15:15:40 <Fish> lol
Mar 12 15:17:20 <Dolphin> You do realize how little nukes phase us
Mar 12 15:17:43 <Fish> just about none
Mar 12 15:17:44 <Fish> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:17:52 <Fish> but today I attacked you with yesterday's leftovers
Mar 12 15:17:59 <Fish> not today's full deploy
Mar 12 15:18:09 <Fish> so, I failed to anarchize you :/
Mar 12 15:18:25 <Dolphin> I can't collect till the nuke effects wear off
Mar 12 15:18:31 <Dolphin> So I could really care less If I get anarchied
Mar 12 15:18:32 <Dolphin> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:18:56 <Fish> once again, you can't declare war that way
Mar 12 15:19:48 <Dolphin> I'm pefectly fine feeding on Smalls and Haq
Mar 12 15:19:57 <Dolphin> Once your out of the picture I'll be making money off of fighting them
Mar 12 15:20:17 <Dolphin> And they both declared recently, so they won't expire soon ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:20:42 <Dolphin> I had like 50 guys left and you still didn't anarchy me
Mar 12 15:20:49 * Dolphin <3 Gorrilla Camps
Mar 12 15:20:52 <Fish> no..
Mar 12 15:20:59 <Fish> you had deployed guys I would've sent home
Mar 12 15:21:02 <Dolphin> Well yea
Mar 12 15:21:03 <Dolphin> That too
Mar 12 15:21:04 <Fish> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:21:13 <Dolphin> I meant the guys who were still defending ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:21:18 <Fish> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:21:28 <Fish> anyway.
Mar 12 15:21:34 <Fish> So it seems you guys don't want peace, ever?
Mar 12 15:21:35 <Fish> oO
Mar 12 15:22:51 <Master_Ninja> Let me try to explain exactly what needs to happen for us to peace.
Mar 12 15:23:21 <Fish> it's probably what I heard from Dolphin.
Mar 12 15:23:38 <Dolphin> We're a small alliance ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:23:43 <Master_Ninja> We need you to add us to/create a no-raiding list. Meaning that your whole alliance does not raid us, and in the event they do, we deal with them accordingly.
Mar 12 15:23:59 <Fish> and I'll probably reply to you the same way as I did to dolphin..
Mar 12 15:24:11 <Fish> Not creating one, not implementing it, and have no real authority.
Mar 12 15:24:20 <Fish> and, no organization.
Mar 12 15:24:40 <Fish> http://s4.zetaboards.com/The_Fellowship/members/ < just look at my awesome memberlist... only dulceice is a current member.
Mar 12 15:25:18 <Master_Ninja> Okay, there are in-game PMs for a reason. And most of the people engaged with us, would probably understand the situation.
Mar 12 15:25:31 <Master_Ninja> We could PM them for you if necessary.
Mar 12 15:25:35 <Fish> er.. there's few people engaged with you...
Mar 12 15:25:43 <Master_Ninja> I have six people against me.
Mar 12 15:25:45 <Fish> more of a bunch that you decided to crush because they were easy.
Mar 12 15:26:12 <Master_Ninja> Actually, I believe nearly all our alliance has their defensive slots filled by now.
Mar 12 15:26:16 <Fish> 3 of them fit my above description
Mar 12 15:26:22 <Fish> and check Mark Reynolds... 2 open.
Mar 12 15:26:31 <Fish> I didn't even send the last guy against him
Mar 12 15:26:42 <Master_Ninja> Note how I said nearly.
Mar 12 15:26:47 <Fish> http://tournament.cybernations.net/search_...0293&Extended=1 < 2 open
Mar 12 15:26:49 <Dolphin> My full six slots are taken
Mar 12 15:27:10 <Fish> http://tournament.cybernations.net/search_...0293&Extended=1 < 1 open
Mar 12 15:27:12 <Dolphin> we may still have a few defensive slots open, but we're close to 100% utilization
Mar 12 15:27:34 <Fish> well, I wasn't arguing against this most recent point.
Mar 12 15:27:51 <Master_Ninja> Let me just lay it out in a simple fashion. You have a fair measure of power in your alliance.
Mar 12 15:28:09 <Master_Ninja> Deny it if you want, but you are controlling the alliance in all reality.
Mar 12 15:28:16 <Fish> I do, but none in the "Don't touch!" list
Mar 12 15:28:42 <Master_Ninja> Post something on your forum and notify your members.
Mar 12 15:28:50 * Dolphin sighs
Mar 12 15:28:52 <Fish> *cough* MEMBERLIST *cough*
Mar 12 15:28:52 <Master_Ninja> It is really not that hard to create.
Mar 12 15:29:11 <Fish> *cough* hereyougoagain *cough* http://s4.zetaboards.com/The_Fellowship/members/
Mar 12 15:29:13 <Dolphin> Yea we get it, the forum you created doesn't really function as a forum
Mar 12 15:29:15 <Master_Ninja> PMs in-game. I am pretty sure most people read them.
Mar 12 15:29:42 <Fish> remember, I have no real authority and Angmar's pretty pissed at me already for taking all this control and declaring war a while back.
Mar 12 15:30:04 <Master_Ninja> Look, we know both sides of the story. Angmar wants peace.
Mar 12 15:30:20 <Master_Ninja> Since you are active, you declare it.
Mar 12 15:30:39 <Master_Ninja> Seems pretty simple to me.
Mar 12 15:30:42 <Fish> well, Dolphin clearly hasn't told you what needs to happen for me to declare it.
Mar 12 15:30:53 <Master_Ninja> I know what you want.
Mar 12 15:31:01 <Fish> okay, and it sure hasn't happened
Mar 12 15:31:27 <Dolphin> Hey now!
Mar 12 15:31:32 <Dolphin> Don't blaim the aquatic mammals
Mar 12 15:31:40 <Master_Ninja> Okay, well here's the deal.
Mar 12 15:31:41 <Fish> lol
Mar 12 15:32:03 <Master_Ninja> You can save face and declare it, and Mark could possibly send you a in-game PM apologizing.
Mar 12 15:32:24 <Fish> *sigh* you guys like threats, don't you...
Mar 12 15:32:35 <Master_Ninja> Or you could ignore our offers and sell half your infrastructure to be able to declare on us again.
Mar 12 15:32:43 <Master_Ninja> As we smash your lower members.
Mar 12 15:32:55 <Fish> really...
Mar 12 15:33:03 <Master_Ninja> I am laying out the sides. Not threatening you. We told you many times how we deal with raiders.
Mar 12 15:33:04 <Fish> I disagree. I see a third option
Mar 12 15:33:36 <Fish> Where I call in all my "resources" and smash you to pieces using the guys who don't want to but still will fight you
Mar 12 15:34:08 <Master_Ninja> And we engage in a war until the reset where no one gets ahead.
Mar 12 15:34:23 <Fish> actually, some of my nations get ahead.
Mar 12 15:34:23 * Dolphin thinks this is going nowhere
Mar 12 15:34:23 <Master_Ninja> We don't flag run and are doing this for combat experience, so I am down for that too.
Mar 12 15:34:27 <Fish> and the rest don't.
Mar 12 15:34:32 <Fish> I noticed you don't flag run.
Mar 12 15:34:39 <Fish> I noticed I don't, either.
Mar 12 15:34:46 <Dolphin> Fish, you should get the authority to negotiate on behalf of your alliance
Mar 12 15:35:00 <Fish> actually, I appointed that to myself. That's why I'm here, no?
Mar 12 15:35:01 <Dolphin> So we can stop this nonsense of negotiating with no power
Mar 12 15:35:08 <Fish> ah!
Mar 12 15:35:15 <Fish> well, it's disorganized, see.
Mar 12 15:35:21 <Dolphin> Well well, We need some assurance that you guys won't hit us again
Mar 12 15:35:47 <Fish> Got a method?
Mar 12 15:35:51 <Fish>
Mar 12 15:36:04 <Dolphin> Generally... with more organized alliances... they maintain a list of .. you've heard the story
Mar 12 15:36:08 <Dolphin> bla bla bla
Mar 12 15:36:16 <Master_Ninja> Already stated. In-game PM and the creation of a no-hit list.
Mar 12 15:36:30 <Dolphin> and if someone hits us reguardless of that list, their alliance usually leaves them out to dry while we extract revenge
Mar 12 15:36:31 <Fish> Already stated. Not from me, not from Angmar, not happening.
Mar 12 15:36:40 <Master_Ninja> In the PM, you can say that members that continue attacking will receive no help from their alliance.
Mar 12 15:36:53 <Fish> I can't guarantee no help, can I now?
Mar 12 15:36:58 <Master_Ninja> What is the problem with creating a no-hit list?
Mar 12 15:37:04 <Fish> I can't enforce it?
Mar 12 15:37:10 <Master_Ninja> We can.
Mar 12 15:37:17 <Fish> No, you can't.
Mar 12 15:37:27 <Master_Ninja> They attack us, they get no help from the rest of the alliance, we smash them.
Mar 12 15:37:30 <Dolphin> Gah
Mar 12 15:37:32 <Fish> And if one of my guys decides to defend the un-innocent raider some time in the future,
Mar 12 15:37:40 <Fish> I'm certainly not leaving the Defender to die.
Mar 12 15:37:55 <Dolphin> Someone raids an alliance
Mar 12 15:37:59 <Dolphin> that alliance hits back
Mar 12 15:38:02 <Dolphin> that is a raid
Mar 12 15:38:09 <Dolphin> You bring it more people from the raiders alliance, it is a war
Mar 12 15:38:19 <Fish>
Mar 12 15:38:26 <Dolphin> You can't say "We want to bring these five nations to raid your five nation alliance, but not our otehr 10 weak nations"
Mar 12 15:38:30 <Fish> that doesn't show me how you'll "enforce a no hit list"
Mar 12 15:38:37 <Master_Ninja> With a no-hit list and informing them, I really think this problem is easily solved. I mean, how hard is it to keep people from raiding five nations.
Mar 12 15:39:00 <Fish> if I brought 5 nations, I'd probably be declaring war on you and I'd probably have anarchized you, in this case
Mar 12 15:39:14 <Fish> and it's not hard to say they probably won't.
Mar 12 15:39:17 <Fish> But, here's a scenario:
Mar 12 15:39:29 <Fish> One of my guys, most likely Haq Parast if it happens, attacks you.
Mar 12 15:39:36 <Fish> You pound and kill him.
Mar 12 15:39:44 <Fish> Sulucia comes and attacks... YOU.
Mar 12 15:39:46 <Fish> what do you do?
Mar 12 15:40:00 <Fish> A. kill Sulucia. Not acceptable from my point of view.
Mar 12 15:40:16 <Fish> B. Leave Sulucia alone. Er, not happening it seems
Mar 12 15:40:30 <Fish> I see no enforcement possible.
Mar 12 15:41:04 <Master_Ninja> Just tell them, you cannot raid these people. Everyone peaces out and the problem is solved. We did it with another raider and there was no problem.
Mar 12 15:41:16 <Fish> if you're talking about the OP one,
Mar 12 15:41:16 <Dolphin> It sounds like your AA's policy is to let your members do whatever they want
Mar 12 15:41:20 <Fish> I must ONCE AGAIN POINT OUT:
Mar 12 15:41:23 <Fish> NO ORGANIZATION!
Mar 12 15:41:31 <Fish> No, Dolphin, it isn't.
Mar 12 15:41:32 <Dolphin> You don't want give them rules
Mar 12 15:41:36 <Fish> However, there IS NO POLICY
Mar 12 15:41:53 <Dolphin> So you are basically a bunch of people under an AA with no organization
Mar 12 15:41:56 <Fish> and I, (...remember?) have no power! Except over the guys I listed to Dolphin.
Mar 12 15:41:57 <Dolphin> That is fine
Mar 12 15:41:58 <Fish> That's right.
Mar 12 15:42:10 <Master_Ninja> Can we at least attempt to make a policy?
Mar 12 15:42:19 <Master_Ninja> And see how it goes?
Mar 12 15:42:25 <Dolphin> I don't thinkt hat is the point master
Mar 12 15:42:40 <Dolphin> Their policy is not to have a poicly. Whatever
Mar 12 15:42:47 <Fish> No, that isn't the policy:
Mar 12 15:42:55 <Master_Ninja> I will personally message every one of your members about the no-hit list and point them to a post on the forums.
Mar 12 15:43:10 <Fish>
Mar 12 15:43:19 <Fish> you do that. Except, where would I put the list?
Mar 12 15:43:23 <Fish> "Public Announcements"?
Mar 12 15:43:28 <Fish> most of the forum's unviewable,
Mar 12 15:43:31 <Dolphin> Or even better, apparently you guys have an internal forum somewhere ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:43:31 <Fish> and they're not on the forum.
Mar 12 15:43:38 <Fish> yeah, well,
Mar 12 15:43:40 <Fish> I'm not on that one
Mar 12 15:43:41 <Dolphin> that isn't your forum ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:43:50 <Fish> cause I don't want to be on a Legacy subforum
Mar 12 15:43:58 <Master_Ninja> Post it wherever you like. Add it to the post on the CN forums.
Mar 12 15:44:14 <Master_Ninja> As long as they see you declared it, it should be fine.
Mar 12 15:44:30 <Fish> okay, I will add that.
Mar 12 15:44:40 <Fish> (later)
Mar 12 15:44:43 <Fish> but, once again:
Mar 12 15:45:10 <Fish> 1 sec.
Mar 12 15:45:13 <Fish>
Mar 12 15:45:20 <Master_Ninja> No organization?
Mar 12 15:51:03 <Dolphin> So master, National Research Lab or Stock Market
Mar 12 15:51:32 <Master_Ninja> For TE?
Mar 12 15:51:35 <Dolphin> no ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:51:48 <Dolphin> I'm up to purchase one. NRL is worth 130K/day, while stock market is 220K,b ut NRL gives me anotehr 1900 guys
Mar 12 15:52:00 <Dolphin> or basically two schools at 41K/day/piece
Mar 12 15:53:00 <Dolphin> + the tech bonus
Mar 12 15:53:06 <Master_Ninja> I always liked population increasing ones. Allows you to buy more improvements.
Mar 12 15:53:25 <Fish> okay, back
Mar 12 15:53:26 <Fish> NRL ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:54:25 <Dolphin> I wonder if people would be willing to do better tech deals if I got the FAC
Mar 12 15:54:32 <Dolphin> Does anyone even have the FAC? ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:55:04 <Master_Ninja> I do not think too many people have it. I was going to buy it today.
Mar 12 15:55:15 <Fish> Dulra has it! ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:55:21 <Dolphin> Hey, our alliance has 3 FAC's!
Mar 12 15:55:41 <Master_Ninja> Yep, I think that one will be next for me.
Mar 12 15:55:43 <Fish> 0 for me ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 15:55:53 <Dolphin> I think i'll go with NRL
Mar 12 15:55:56 <Dolphin> Should be good for a tech trader
Mar 12 15:56:11 <Dolphin> Then I have to go find a coal trade. Wonderful >.>
Mar 12 15:56:19 <Master_Ninja> So Fish, where are we at?
Mar 12 15:56:19 <Dolphin> They should bring in the "switch your own resources" to SE
Mar 12 15:56:32 <Fish> oh, yeah
Mar 12 15:56:36 <Fish> not no organization.
Mar 12 15:56:44 <Fish> once again:
Mar 12 15:56:59 <Fish> someone needs to acknowledge my points BEFORE peace is declared
Mar 12 15:58:13 <Master_Ninja> Acknowledge in what way?
Mar 12 15:58:29 <Fish> acknowledge their truth. Not their existence lol
Mar 12 15:58:39 <Fish> on a side note: you DO agree with them, no?
Mar 12 15:59:13 <Master_Ninja> Hmmm.
Mar 12 15:59:42 <Master_Ninja> The first point is technically true, though in reality somewhat false.
Mar 12 16:00:02 <Fish> well I told dolphin why that needed to be acknowledged:
Mar 12 16:00:21 <Fish> Although Guppy Fish is not the supreme leader of The Fellowship, he does have admin access on their forums and therefore holds a position of high authority within his alliance. His seniority in The Fellowship made this coordinated attack a severe threat to our soverignity, and we responded accordingly. We made multiple attempts to resolve the conflict diplom
Mar 12 16:00:22 <Master_Ninja> The second point is an opinion so therefore does not need to be acknowledged as truth.
Mar 12 16:00:38 <Dolphin> Master has seen the transcript
Mar 12 16:00:57 <Fish> there's a purpose to each point...
Mar 12 16:01:07 <Dolphin> We don't let our negotiators go in unprepared ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:01:20 <Master_Ninja> Your third point is entirely from your perspective, so has no bearing in any negiotiations.
Mar 12 16:01:25 <Fish> the second is there as an objection to THIS smear:
Mar 12 16:01:40 <Fish> the third has a point too... stop going so fast
Mar 12 16:01:40 <Master_Ninja> And the fourth point is a question not a statement.
Mar 12 16:01:41 <Fish> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:01:53 <Fish> the second point is an objection to this:
Mar 12 16:02:10 <Fish> Guppy Fish has rejected all our negotiation attempts and has got more TF members to join the assault. < :S
Mar 12 16:02:52 <Fish> Point 3 is for this: We made multiple attempts to resolve the conflict diplomatically after our initial counter attack.
Mar 12 16:03:01 <Fish> yeah, many efforts... but not very good ones.
Mar 12 16:03:22 <Master_Ninja> Point 3 is entirely subjective.
Mar 12 16:03:44 <Master_Ninja> So has no need to be recognized.
Mar 12 16:03:47 <Fish> well, if you acknowledged the fact he sent that PM
Mar 12 16:04:04 <Fish> the OWF world would see exactly that they weren't very.. nice efforts
Mar 12 16:04:09 <Master_Ninja> Okay, "Mark Reynolds sent Guppy Fish a PM."
Mar 12 16:04:28 <Master_Ninja> The contents of the PM are entirely subjective to the recipient.
Mar 12 16:04:34 <Dolphin> Gah
Mar 12 16:04:44 <Master_Ninja> Each person would view them in a different way.
Mar 12 16:04:55 <Dolphin> The e-lawyering in this room is amazing
Mar 12 16:04:55 <Fish> actually, not "a PM"
Mar 12 16:05:02 <Fish> "a PM with threats and insults inside"
Mar 12 16:05:11 <Fish> "a PM" obviously wouldn't show much. <
Mar 12 16:05:20 <Master_Ninja> What you perceived as threats and insults.
Mar 12 16:05:47 <Fish> Message: After more than two months of nobody attacking the Grey Council, some noob in OP attacks us, we retaliate and you thereupun decided to hit what you regarded as an easy target becuase you sensed that we would have our hands full dealing with the repercussions of our decision to retaliate. I have bad news for you. The guy who attacked us was a noob wh
Mar 12 16:05:52 <Dolphin> "Back off now" can be viewed as a threat or a warnign, depending
Mar 12 16:06:02 <Fish> I'm sure OP wouldn't appreciate an SS of that, either
Mar 12 16:06:16 <Fish> anyway, I don't need to copypaste each section.
Mar 12 16:06:17 <Dolphin> annnnyway
Mar 12 16:06:23 <Fish> You know what's in it, and you know what it means.
Mar 12 16:06:29 <Master_Ninja> I could say "Mark Reynold sent a PM to Guppy Fish, which Guppy Fish felt was both insulting and threatening.
Mar 12 16:06:42 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:06:47 <Fish> you wanna post the whole contents, then?
Mar 12 16:06:58 <Fish> "Mark Reynolds sent Guppy Fish this PM: Message: After more than two months of nobody attacking the Grey Council, some noob in OP attacks us, we retaliate and you thereupun decided to hit what you regarded as an easy target becuase you sensed that we would have our hands full dealing with the repercussions of our decision to retaliate. I have bad news for yo
Mar 12 16:07:06 <Fish> I'll even give you the SS
Mar 12 16:07:11 <Fish> or post it myself
Mar 12 16:07:19 <Master_Ninja> Look, I know what the message says.
Mar 12 16:07:25 <Fish> I know you do
Mar 12 16:07:31 <Master_Ninja> Let's not turn this into a feces-slinging contest.
Mar 12 16:07:37 <Fish> and I know you know it's got threats and insults.
Mar 12 16:07:50 <Fish> and, something OP sure wouldn't appreciate, of course.
Mar 12 16:08:07 <Master_Ninja> I know that it has the possibility to be threatening or insulting, depending on the way someone takes it.
Mar 12 16:08:19 <Fish> I don't know..
Mar 12 16:08:26 <Fish> show me a way, from my perspective, for it NOT to be
Mar 12 16:08:29 <Dolphin> Fish, you've made that vieled threat like 7 times now
Mar 12 16:08:30 <Dolphin> we get it
Mar 12 16:08:43 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:08:46 <Fish> you get it,
Mar 12 16:08:49 <Master_Ninja> I also realize it could be perceived as a way to show the history of the GC and put that into perspective.
Mar 12 16:08:49 <Dolphin> We are not that thick
Mar 12 16:09:03 <Dolphin> Yes, you could post a message that you think might hurt our relationship with OP
Mar 12 16:09:04 <Fish> but it seems you don't want to write this on the OWF:
Mar 12 16:09:22 <Fish> "Mark Reynolds sent Guppy Fish a PM with insults and threats inside"
Mar 12 16:09:23 <Master_Ninja> In all technicality, you could if you want.
Mar 12 16:09:36 <Fish> yeah, well, if you don't want to recognize that it's like that,
Mar 12 16:09:41 <Fish> I will, because it has to be known!
Mar 12 16:09:45 <Fish> well, not has to be.
Mar 12 16:09:53 <Fish> Nobody pays attention to announcements regarding the Fellowship.
Mar 12 16:10:06 <Dolphin> But they pay attention to the GC
Mar 12 16:10:06 <Master_Ninja> PMs are between people, and "legally" owned by the person who receives them. You just look like a jerk from posting things like that.
Mar 12 16:10:12 <Dolphin> So you want to use us as a bully pulpit
Mar 12 16:10:15 <Dolphin> and that is your cost for peace?
Mar 12 16:10:17 <Dolphin> Wonderful
Mar 12 16:10:51 <Fish> well, you don't seem to want to recognize its contents fully
Mar 12 16:11:01 <Master_Ninja> I recognize its contents.
Mar 12 16:11:05 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:11:12 <Master_Ninja> They can be taken a number of ways.
Mar 12 16:11:14 <Fish> worded differently:
Mar 12 16:11:22 <Fish> recognize them the way I mentioned
Mar 12 16:11:31 <Fish> perhaps slightly better worded, but not THAT much,.
Mar 12 16:11:43 <Master_Ninja> Mark Reynolds sent Guppy Fish a PM with insults and threats inside
Mar 12 16:11:57 <Master_Ninja> That is your perspective.
Mar 12 16:12:02 <Fish> yes, it is.
Mar 12 16:12:08 <Master_Ninja> Mark Reynolds sent Guppy Fish a PM with insults and threats inside
Mar 12 16:12:15 <Master_Ninja> Sorry, wrong thing.
Mar 12 16:12:25 <Master_Ninja> Mark Reynold sent a PM to Guppy Fish, which Guppy Fish felt was both insulting and threatening.
Mar 12 16:12:32 <Master_Ninja> That states exactly what happened.
Mar 12 16:12:36 <Dolphin> You do realize he sent you those to try to avoid this
Mar 12 16:12:57 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:13:10 <Fish> he had you guys attack those who have been attacked
Mar 12 16:13:16 <Fish> before sending the PM
Mar 12 16:13:20 <Fish> avoid what, an IRC discussion?
Mar 12 16:13:45 <Dolphin> The escalation
Mar 12 16:14:17 <Fish> there was no escalation, almost
Mar 12 16:14:31 <Fish> only ND got out of anarchy and attacked a couple more guys,
Mar 12 16:14:47 <Fish> and the guys you attacked first remained destroyed, slightly more but equally effectively
Mar 12 16:14:56 <Fish> you, of course, got nuked as well
Mar 12 16:16:15 <Master_Ninja> Have we resolved this point yet?
Mar 12 16:17:08 <Fish> 16:12 Master_Ninja - Mark Reynold sent a PM to Guppy Fish, which Guppy Fish felt was both insulting and threatening. - states what happened
Mar 12 16:17:25 <Fish> doesn't reveal anything, hence your willingness to post it ^
Mar 12 16:17:47 <Fish> 16:12 Master_Ninja - Mark Reynolds sent Guppy Fish a PM with insults and threats inside - practically also what happened
Mar 12 16:18:00 <Master_Ninja> No, it just lacks a bias, which your interpretation does.
Mar 12 16:18:18 <Fish> it's a bias most the world would agree with.
Mar 12 16:18:27 <Fish> Talking about the war against RE
Mar 12 16:18:37 <Fish> saying "Unfortunately, you outnumber us <5 to 1
Mar 12 16:18:49 <Fish> Regarding my "cowardice"
Mar 12 16:19:06 <Fish> Do the smart thing and negotiate an end to this war. - implying much?
Mar 12 16:19:16 <Fish> I have bad news for you. The guy who attacked us was a noob who was unaware that we always fight back when we are attacked. Having made our point, we peaced out with both him and his alliance. - bad news?
Mar 12 16:19:53 <Master_Ninja> Look, none of us have the right to stop you from posting that. If you really want it out there, post it. You will face any repercussions.
Mar 12 16:20:08 <Master_Ninja> My way is diplomatic and correct, and leads no bias to any side.
Mar 12 16:20:27 <Fish> the thing is,
Mar 12 16:20:30 <Fish> if you put that...
Mar 12 16:20:35 <Fish> you're acknowledging NOTHING!
Mar 12 16:20:46 <Fish> other than the fact that Mark Reynolds sent me a PM!
Mar 12 16:21:01 <Master_Ninja> No, I am acknowledging what happened. It is unbiased.
Mar 12 16:21:17 <Fish> that's not the point
Mar 12 16:21:17 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:21:20 <Dolphin> Again, I view this as a fancy "back off" PM
Mar 12 16:21:27 <Fish> fancy.
Mar 12 16:21:33 <Fish> ...
Mar 12 16:21:35 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:21:37 <Dolphin> Well, it was more words ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:21:47 <Master_Ninja> On our side we could say: Guppy Fish ignored our attempt to make peace with him via PM, so we had no choice but to continue the war.
Mar 12 16:21:55 <Master_Ninja> Both sides are valid interpretations.
Mar 12 16:22:04 <Fish> yeah, well, I post the contents,
Mar 12 16:22:09 <Master_Ninja> Mine is an inbetween unbiased one.
Mar 12 16:22:11 <Fish> and it's pretty clear WHY.
Mar 12 16:22:23 <Dolphin> I'm confused
Mar 12 16:22:50 <Dolphin> Are you trying to get us to post something to avoid you posting the contents, or as a requirement for peace
Mar 12 16:22:51 <Fish> and it's pretty clear WHY [I "ignored" the "attempt to make peace"]
Mar 12 16:23:08 <Fish> the posting something is something I want for peace
Mar 12 16:23:16 <Fish> and if you absolutely refuse, I have to post it to show it.
Mar 12 16:23:21 <Master_Ninja> Both sides can interpret the PM in different ways. My interpretation explained exactly what happened.
Mar 12 16:23:33 <Fish> your interpretation
Mar 12 16:23:36 <Fish> is a euphimism
Mar 12 16:23:47 <Fish> of what happened. It's what happened,
Mar 12 16:23:50 <Fish> but it's a euphimism
Mar 12 16:24:19 <Fish> hmm, I'm spelling that incorrectly..
Mar 12 16:24:26 <Fish> ah, an "e"
Mar 12 16:24:31 <Fish> EUPHEMISM
Mar 12 16:24:49 <Fish> your euphemism conveniently masks the contents to show them as if they were perfectly friendly
Mar 12 16:24:51 <Dolphin> I have to go soon
Mar 12 16:25:09 <Fish> no more staying around for fish? ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:25:20 <Master_Ninja> No, my euphemism masks the fact that you ignored our generous peace offer.
Mar 12 16:25:27 <Fish> generous.
Mar 12 16:25:27 <Master_Ninja> See how that works?
Mar 12 16:25:37 <Dolphin> Anime club. I'll be on via phone to buy more guys when you nuke them
Mar 12 16:25:38 <Dolphin> ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:25:52 <Fish> lol ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:25:54 <Dolphin> Since I don't see you two comming to an agreement any time soon
Mar 12 16:26:02 <Master_Ninja> My statement actually masks nothing and allows people to make their own decision.
Mar 12 16:26:10 <Fish> I see an SS coming up pretty soon, along with a nuke if that's the situation.
Mar 12 16:26:31 <Fish> No, your euphemism masks something. An SS, on the other hand, masks nothing and allows people to make their own decision.
Mar 12 16:27:05 <Master_Ninja> SS?
Mar 12 16:27:10 <Dolphin> Screen Shot
Mar 12 16:27:16 <Master_Ninja> Ah.
Mar 12 16:27:19 <Master_Ninja> Go for it.
Mar 12 16:27:23 * dulceice[Argent] (ohhaithar@coldfront-A2E1E3B5.lsanca.fios.verizon.net) has joined #gc
Mar 12 16:27:25 <Fish> sure thing.
Mar 12 16:27:27 <dulceice[Argent]> whut
Mar 12 16:27:31 <Dolphin> Again, we're switching between the "I need this for peace" and "I need this to not post it"
Mar 12 16:27:35 <Fish> and, I thought I'd bring dulceice to say hi for no good reason.
Mar 12 16:27:40 <dulceice[Argent]> HAI
Mar 12 16:27:43 <Fish> once again:
Mar 12 16:27:44 <Dolphin> Hi dulceice
Mar 12 16:27:48 <Master_Ninja> Hi.
Mar 12 16:27:54 <Fish> I need the recognition of threats and an insult for peace.
Mar 12 16:28:05 <Fish> If that does not happen, I need to post it to show it.
Mar 12 16:28:13 <Master_Ninja> Your interpretations of threats and insults.
Mar 12 16:28:17 <Dolphin> And we need some reassurance that this won't happen again.
Mar 12 16:28:25 <Dolphin> Which you don't seem to ahve the autority to make...
Mar 12 16:28:30 <Fish> Dolphin, we had that covered forever ago
Mar 12 16:28:43 <Fish> where master_ninja agreed to send the PMs and I'd enforce it as well as possible.
Mar 12 16:28:45 <Fish> <
Mar 12 16:28:53 <Fish> now, back on the current point:
Mar 12 16:29:00 <Fish> that's the situation of the peace negotiation.
Mar 12 16:29:28 <Dolphin> I must of misssed something then
Mar 12 16:29:37 <Master_Ninja> We can acknowledge that you felt threatened and insulted.
Mar 12 16:29:53 <Fish> and, evidently, not that there were threats and insults.
Mar 12 16:30:08 <Master_Ninja> But, we cannot acknowledge that the PM itself was threatening and insulting. That is a matter of perception.
Mar 12 16:30:34 <Fish> then acknowledge the PM in its words, by my posting the SS(s)
Mar 12 16:30:37 * MIKE1587[GC] (Adium@coldfront-4F18B8F5.nap.wideopenwest.com) has joined #gc
Mar 12 16:30:38 * ChanServ gives channel operator status to MIKE1587[GC]
Mar 12 16:30:44 <Fish> ummmmmmmmmmmmm
Mar 12 16:30:45 <Fish> oooooooooooooooooookay?
Mar 12 16:30:52 <Dolphin> You want us that it is a real PM?
Mar 12 16:30:53 <Fish> hi Mike1587[GC]
Mar 12 16:30:56 <Dolphin> is this really what it is about?
Mar 12 16:30:59 <Fish> what!?
Mar 12 16:30:59 <MIKE1587[GC]> hello
Mar 12 16:31:03 <Fish> no comprendo grammar.
Mar 12 16:31:03 <Fish>
Mar 12 16:31:08 <Fish> "You want us that it is"
Mar 12 16:31:10 Master_Ninja MIKE1587[GC]
Mar 12 16:31:13 <Master_Ninja> No, you can post the PM if you want.
Mar 12 16:31:25 >MIKE1587[GC]< Your gonna need a primer in we just went over ---EMOT REMOVED---
Mar 12 16:31:28 <Master_Ninja> We will just acknowledge you felt threatened.
Mar 12 16:32:04 <Fish> If that's final, then my decision too is final, and the PM will be posted. Evidently, the war will continue too.
Mar 12 16:32:14 <Fish> I'll go accept M's offer to help now.
Mar 12 16:32:57 <Fish> and I'll SS you that if you don't believe me, too.
Mar 12 16:33:34 <Master_Ninja> Look, I have tried to resolve this diplomatically.
Mar 12 16:33:54 <Fish> And, as I'm quick to point out, not very well!
Mar 12 16:33:54 <Master_Ninja> What you decide to do is your problem.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]** MIKE1587[GC] joined #gc
16:30 +++ ChanServ has given op to MIKE1587[GC]
16:30 Fish ummmmmmmmmmmmm
16:30 Fish oooooooooooooooooookay?
16:30 Dolphin You want us that it is a real PM?
16:30 Fish hi Mike1587[GC]
16:31 Dolphin is this really what it is about?
16:31 Fish what!?
16:31 MIKE1587[GC] hello
16:31 Fish no comprendo grammar.
16:31 Fish
16:31 Fish "You want us that it is"
16:31 Master_Ninja No, you can post the PM if you want.
16:31 Master_Ninja We will just acknowledge you felt threatened.
16:32 Fish If that's final, then my decision too is final, and the PM will be posted. Evidently, the war will continue too.
16:32 Fish I'll go accept M's offer to help now.
16:33 Fish and I'll SS you that if you don't believe me, too.
16:33 Master_Ninja Look, I have tried to resolve this diplomatically.
16:33 Master_Ninja What you decide to do is your problem.
16:33 Fish And, as I'm quick to point out, not very well!
16:34 Master_Ninja I tried to find a unbiased solution.
16:34 Fish Actually, this time it's yours.
16:34 Fish It's not an unbiased solution, it's a euphemism.
16:34 Master_Ninja No, I already demonstrated it was not.
16:34 Fish well I disagree with your demonstration
16:35 Fish and I'm sure the rest of OWF-land will, too
16:35 Master_Ninja It was stating exactly what happened. I offered you the opportunity to post the SS if you like.
16:35 Fish you don't need to offer me that opportunity
16:35 Fish or, should I say,
16:35 Fish I don't need you to offer it.
16:35 Master_Ninja Look, we feel that the PM was not insulting you feel it was. Stating that you felt insulted is the middle ground.
16:36 Dolphin can hardly believe this is a peace negotiation
16:36 Dolphin is going to go watch anime
16:36 Fish sure, have fun
16:36 Fish Oo
16:36 Master_Ninja Have fun!
16:36 Fish lol.
16:36 Dolphin Cute Girls + Cartoons = better than here
16:36 Dolphin
16:36 Fish butbutbut THERE'S FISH HERE
16:36 Fish
16:36 Fish anyway.
16:36 Dolphin .... those cute girls not being the ones in the cartoons. Before anyone says anything sly....
16:37 Fish lol
16:37 Fish anyway.
16:37 Fish You seriously feel the PM ISN'T INSULTING?!?!?!??!
16:37 Fish I disagree with your feeling. >_>
16:37 Fish It pretty clearly is.
16:38 Master_Ninja I think it is stating how the GC deals with things. I can see how it could be taken as insulting.
16:38 Master_Ninja But it is not inherently insulting.
16:38 Fish it's not 100% insult,
16:38 Fish but it certainly is insulting: from every angle it shows
16:39 Fish even from that of Mark Reynolds.
16:39 Master_Ninja Not necessarily.
16:39 Master_Ninja That is your perception.
16:39 Master_Ninja To argue semantically.
16:39 Fish I'm almost 100% sure of that perception,
16:39 Fish Regarding your cowardice - pretty insulting.
16:39 Fish Does he take cowardice as a compliment?>
16:39 Master_Ninja An item cannot be inherently insulting, it may only be perceived as insulting.
16:40 Fish that's true,
16:40 Fish but when 99.99% of the world takes it as insulting,
16:40 Fish it's insulting, no two ways about it.
16:40 Master_Ninja Again that is your opinion.
16:41 Master_Ninja Unless you surveyed the entire world, you would not know how they felt.
16:41 *** Dolphin quit (Quit: Steamboy... Yay!)
16:41 Fish
16:41 Fish yeah, that's right.
16:41 Fish However, some things don't require the whole world to be surveyed.
16:41 Master_Ninja Again, your opinion.
16:41 Fish This is getting rather pointless.
16:41 Master_Ninja You perceive that the rest of the world would be insulted by it, because you were insulted by it.
16:42 Fish This is the situation:
16:42 Fish For peace, one of my terms is that you guys acknowledge what I've noted so far.
16:42 Fish You do not want to acknowledge point 3 the way I wanted you to: you are only willing to acknowledge a euphemism of it.
16:43 Fish If you do not acknowledge it, I will have to post the SS onto the OWF, and the war will have to continue.
16:43 Fish That's all there is to it. Take your pick.
16:44 Master_Ninja Look, I did not want to argue the complete semantics of the situation. I can offer a middle ground, were we acknowledge that you have valid points, but we disagree with them.
16:44 Fish It's an acknowledge or don't acknowledge kind of thing.
16:45 Master_Ninja Well then, let me ask you a question, are you in the PS/OP or the RE/SE side of the larger war?
16:45 Fish don't keep leaving out THP
16:45 Master_Ninja True.
16:45 Fish I am, of course, on neither side, but there is certainly a side I support.
16:46 Fish (and I would intervene on that side's behalf if it got out of hand, though that's unlikely)
16:47 Master_Ninja Okay, then apply that situation to ours. Both sides of the larger war have differing opinions of the war, what caused it, and who is in the right.
16:47 Master_Ninja We both have similar situations.
16:47 Master_Ninja So, personal views on anything have to be ignored.
16:48 Fish be back.
16:48 Fish Both sides of the war we are in have differing opinions, and who is right.
16:48 Fish However, personal views on anything cannot be ignored, because the current post from Mark Reynolds is an opinion
16:49 Master_Ninja Yes, and you posted your view.
16:49 Fish and it is one from YOUR SIDE; the opinion must be absolutely clarified.
16:49 Fish ah, well!
16:49 Master_Ninja Both views have been shown to the OWF.
16:49 Fish My side hasn't been very completely.
16:49 Master_Ninja Then you can explain it. That is not my responsibility.
16:50 Master_Ninja But still, both viewpoints have been given, and neither side is ever going to be willing to agree completely with the other side.
16:50 Fish Once again, your response to this:
16:50 Fish Will you or will you not acknowledge all of my points in the way I have noted?
16:51 Master_Ninja Okay, would you agree with what Mark posted?
16:51 Fish No, I wouldn't,
16:51 Master_Ninja Then why should we agree with you?
16:51 Fish but the difference is that his post is a euphemism,
16:51 Fish whereas the ScreenShot is the absolute and unbiased truth.
16:51 Fish I know that you don't want to.
16:51 Master_Ninja Post it. It is yours to post!
16:52 Fish It is mine to post.
16:52 Master_Ninja Yes.
16:52 Fish Therefore, I have interpreted your response as a "No".
16:52 Master_Ninja Hmmm?
16:52 Fish This current discussion has therefore been resolved,
16:52 Fish and the consequences will be the consequences.
16:52 Master_Ninja I really do not care whether you post it or not.
16:52 Fish If I'm correct in my last statements, I will leave now.
16:52 Fish This is a Yes/No question.
16:53 Master_Ninja Then, yes. Post it.
16:53 Master_Ninja I have told you you can.
16:53 Fish The conversation is over.
16:53 *** Fish left #gc[/spoiler]

[Guppy Fish]

[quote name='Mark Reynolds' timestamp='1299987170' post='2662242']
I believe that Master Ninja and Dolphin made our position quite clear multiple times during the lengthy IRC conversations; we don't want you to raid us again. Neither of them were able to deduce what it was that you wanted because you were unable to make a coherent and logical argument. I can post the IRC logs if you really want to embarass yourself even more.

The "actual war guys"? Do you mean you have actually got members who are both organised and actually know that if you are going to buy 1k infra, a wonder and a bunch of improvements it might be an idea to invest in one or two soldiers?

If you have some "actual war guys" (whatever that means; why bother playing TE if you aren't a war guy?) then either your alliance is not disorganised as you repeatedly claimed, or you went cap in hand to another alliance because you need bailing out in a war against a five member alliance with no nukes, which you personally chose to start. Are you a liar or merely inept?

You have conspicuoulsy failed to explain why it is that you claim to have no power in your alliance, and yet you have issued a (redundant) DoW and in sending these fabled "actual war guys", now claim to be in charge of your military strategy.
[/quote]

Master Ninja and Dolphin have argued over this no raid list with me, and the disorganization is THIS SITUATION:

-The Fellowship is not under my control. However, Smalls07, Dulceice, htmlmaster, and Cinerex come on IRC a lot, and usually do what I tell them to in the game world.
-Only Dulceice is registered on the forums. Additionally, since I have no actual power over the WHOLE alliance, the no raid list cannot be established.
-The "actual war guys" are actually ones who fit that description! Namely, dulceice and htmlmaster. So, I'll go with neither.
-I have actually repeatedly successfully explained the situation. Stop spewing your rubbish and deal with it.

Stating your point over and over again makes it no more correct.

KOwens06: sure, but it seems you didn't appreciate LE's nukes, says the bio...

[KOwens06]

[quote name='Guppy Fish' timestamp='1299989319' post='2662317']
KOwens06: sure, but it seems you didn't appreciate LE's nukes, says the bio...
[/quote]


Just because I didn't want to nuke them due to me being stronger than them does not mean I accept them. After my nuke I bill locked them, thats why I didn't want to nuke them. Reading comprehension for the win [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/awesome.gif[/img]

[PIMPTOPIA]

[quote name='LittleRena' timestamp='1299982901' post='2662177']
I appologies for joking.
[/quote]
Apology accepted

[Guppy Fish]

[quote name='KOwens06' timestamp='1299989609' post='2662332']
Just because I didn't want to nuke them due to me being stronger than them does not mean I accept them. After my nuke I bill locked them, thats why I didn't want to nuke them. Reading comprehension for the win [img]http://forums.cybernations.net/public/style_emoticons/default/awesome.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Oh, well. Your point?

[dulceice]

It's always awkward being mentioned. I suppose I'm just a model member or something like that

[/slightlyofftopic]

Uhm, o/

War is fun, right? Get off the hate and start bombing [i]lovingly[/i].

[Mark Reynolds]

[quote name='KOwens06' timestamp='1299988912' post='2662290']
GC give them hell. If this continues I will join your ranks to make Guppy eat his words.

o/ GC
[/quote]

Thank you for your kind words of support. I always found you to be a classy person when we worked together in the same alliance a few rounds back.

[quote name='Guppy Fish' timestamp='1299989319' post='2662317']
Master Ninja and Dolphin have argued over this no raid list with me, and the disorganization is THIS SITUATION:

-The Fellowship is not under my control. However, Smalls07, Dulceice, htmlmaster, and Cinerex come on IRC a lot, and usually do what I tell them to in the game world.
-Only Dulceice is registered on the forums. Additionally, since I have no actual power over the WHOLE alliance, the no raid list cannot be established.
-The "actual war guys" are actually ones who fit that description! Namely, dulceice and htmlmaster. So, I'll go with neither.
-I have actually repeatedly successfully explained the situation. Stop spewing your rubbish and deal with it.

Stating your point over and over again makes it no more correct.

KOwens06: sure, but it seems you didn't appreciate LE's nukes, says the bio...
[/quote]
If you have no power over your alliance, you have no power to issue a formal (and unnecessary) DoW, assume responsibility for peace negotiations or to assume responsibility for setting military strategy, each of which you have done. Competant alliances have their government take charge of this sort of strategic decisions as opposed to letting a rank and file member dictate policy. I might add that I have spoken to a chap called Lord of Darkness, whose ingame nation bio describes himeself as your Emperor, and he told me that he shared my desire for a swift peace and he also told me that he PMed you with instructions to peace out. Was your emperor telling lies which would logically gain him nothing or are you deliberatly disobeying orders? If you are disobeying orders, you and your supporters are a rogue group who deserve to be expelled from your alliance.

When I authorised retaliatory strikes against all members of your alliance, we had four members who were not in anarchy. Within a few hours, each person had declared war against three of your members. The other guy launched three wars as soon as he got out of anarchy. You had already used airstrikes and CM attacks along with issuing threats of nuclear attacks before we began our counterattack, threats that you went ahead with even though we had no nuclear capable nations. You have claimed in this thread that this was some sort of border skirmish and you are only now recognising a state of total war. We maxed out our offensive war slots and you didn't take the hint? Or are you trying to come up with a facesaving excuse for the fact that despite having no nukes (unlike your alliance) and being outnumbered by four to one, we are hurting your alliance?

I've seen a lot of small alliance get raided by a big alliance and start an OWF thread complaining about the percieved injustice they have suffered and asking for the international community to right the wrong they feel they have suffered. This is the first time I have ever seen the initial raiders being the ones who supply all the whining.

We've gone to a heck of a lot of effort to give you a chance to end a war that is rapidly turning your alliance into a laughing stock. Your IRC threats of continuing this war for the rest of the round don't frighten us because we have faced a similar scenario once before against worse odds, and we ended up winning that war. It is up to you to decide whether you have the maturity to accept your raid went wrong or whether you continue to dismantle the public image of your alliance rather than accept the fact that tech raiding carries risks.

Your choice. Choose wisely.

[dulceice]

Hey Mark, as much as I'd prefer a peace agreement was reached, that doesn't seem like it's going to be happening unless someone gets pounded, whether that's you or us. I understand that you feel Guppy is being unreasonable, and maybe he is, whatever. I'm not going to pretend to know about SE or TE politics, I never have.

Regarding the end of your second paragraph, which I'm not going to quote because there's really no need, you're obviously misunderstanding. There's no facesaving involved. As far as I can see from where I sit, when you declared war on the Fellowship, there were peace discussions going on meanwhile. I can see how that would be considered a less serious war then, can you not?

That's not a good explanation of my thought process, let me try again. When you declared war, there was still some hope of a quick peace agreement in the future. Because of that, I believe we were 'holding back,' in some ways. Don't get me wrong, it was war, but why damage if it's all going to end so soon? With this DoW, Guppy had just come out of a failed peace discussion, and by posting this, he was saying that there is no hope for peace until somebody gets pounded into surrender.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense to me. Obviously you're hurting our alliance: whether you're winning or losing a war you get damaged. I'm sure you didn't mean it that literally, but I don't see any other way you could mean it (You've lost 12,413Alliance Strength and we've gained 772AS).

And yes, obviously the raid went wrong. There was no intention of attacking an active alliance that could/would defend itself. On that note though, that doesn't mean that the fighting has to stop. I'm not going to say anything regarding the stuff you were saying about the Fellowship's public image, seeing as, like I said, I really don't know much in that sense.

I don't care about the in game war, but it'd be nice if people stopped fighting about something that is fairly simple: you're defending your alliance against raids, and we made the decision to pursue you. Attacks against the Fellowship and our organization or lack thereof are irrelevant as far as I can see.

[Master Ninja]

[quote name='dulceice' timestamp='1300001040' post='2662645']
Your last sentence doesn't make sense to me. Obviously you're hurting our alliance: whether you're winning or losing a war you get damaged. I'm sure you didn't mean it that literally, but I don't see any other way you could mean it (You've lost 12,413Alliance Strength and we've gained 772AS).
[/quote]

Right, but wrong. Since the beginning of our war you have gained two new members, one of which currently has close to 11,000 NS and the other of which has about 2,000 NS. At my last count, we had done about 12,633.91 NS in damage and received 8,693 NS in return (a large portion of this due to nukes). This has obviously changed due to the recent nukings of our members, but we have also done an increased about of damage to you. So you are in all technicality right, but your alliance would probably be close to 15,000 AS stronger had this war not happened.

I will let Mark respond to the rest.

[White Chocolate]

This says a lot about what I've seen over the rounds, but frankly - what has been said isn't smear It's an annoyed leader of a small alliance expressing his annoyance, but it isn't anything on Planet Steve to prove one's position, imo. Sigh.

Well, :salute: to both parties. Nice to watch someone else's drama

Edited March 13, 2011 by White Chocolate

[Guppy Fish]

[quote name='Mark Reynolds' timestamp='1299994422' post='2662474']
Thank you for your kind words of support. I always found you to be a classy person when we worked together in the same alliance a few rounds back.


If you have no power over your alliance, you have no power to issue a formal (and unnecessary) DoW, assume responsibility for peace negotiations or to assume responsibility for setting military strategy, each of which you have done. Competant alliances have their government take charge of this sort of strategic decisions as opposed to letting a rank and file member dictate policy. I might add that I have spoken to a chap called Lord of Darkness, whose ingame nation bio describes himeself as your Emperor, and he told me that he shared my desire for a swift peace and he also told me that he PMed you with instructions to peace out. Was your emperor telling lies which would logically gain him nothing or are you deliberatly disobeying orders? If you are disobeying orders, you and your supporters are a rogue group who deserve to be expelled from your alliance.

When I authorised retaliatory strikes against all members of your alliance, we had four members who were not in anarchy. Within a few hours, each person had declared war against three of your members. The other guy launched three wars as soon as he got out of anarchy. You had already used airstrikes and CM attacks along with issuing threats of nuclear attacks before we began our counterattack, threats that you went ahead with even though we had no nuclear capable nations. You have claimed in this thread that this was some sort of border skirmish and you are only now recognising a state of total war. We maxed out our offensive war slots and you didn't take the hint? Or are you trying to come up with a facesaving excuse for the fact that despite having no nukes (unlike your alliance) and being outnumbered by four to one, we are hurting your alliance?

I've seen a lot of small alliance get raided by a big alliance and start an OWF thread complaining about the percieved injustice they have suffered and asking for the international community to right the wrong they feel they have suffered. This is the first time I have ever seen the initial raiders being the ones who supply all the whining.

We've gone to a heck of a lot of effort to give you a chance to end a war that is rapidly turning your alliance into a laughing stock. Your IRC threats of continuing this war for the rest of the round don't frighten us because we have faced a similar scenario once before against worse odds, and we ended up winning that war. It is up to you to decide whether you have the maturity to accept your raid went wrong or whether you continue to dismantle the public image of your alliance rather than accept the fact that tech raiding carries risks.

Your choice. Choose wisely.
[/quote]

I do not have power over my alliance, but, as I have repeatedly pointed out to you, I do have it over a subset of it. This isn't my first DoW of the round, either. For several rounds now I have also been the one representing my alliance during peace negotiations, and therefore I naturally still am doing it. As for that PM Angmar sent me, it read "Seriously?"

I threatened what I did and nuked you as I did because I foresaw your retaliation at as absolutely inevitable. It's now real war, as I have ordered some people under my jurisdiction (UNLIKE THE ONES WHO HAVE ATTACKED YOU SO FAR, MOSTLY) to attack you guys. And we're not whining, you are. We're just pointing out fact while you're throwing fictitious nonsense at us.

As for the "effort", it's more of a attempt from you guys to win this war through words.

Shut up and play.