Inquiry on Rerolls

[Lord Frost]

I thought we were discussing the fall of her original nation? My mistake, then.

Yes, I remember that. I can confirm that this is true. And even when Sargun agreed with Sumer to ret-con the whole thing--no one listened to them.

You attempt to take land you aren't aware belongs to someone else, only to have that person declare war IC. Other players bandwagon and declare on you, despite your offer to retcon the whole situation, and even the eventual agreement with the first player to declare on you that it should be retconned... Now, does that really sound fair to anyone?

Well, three people got to have territory in Asia (two of them new), bad RP was stopped, the inevitable declaration of the rebirth of DKT was stopped, and a humanitarian crises in Asia was dealt with. Sounds fair to me

EDIT: and did I mention peace, stability, and unity was temporarily in place in Asia?

Edited May 21, 2009 by Lord Frost

[Subtleknifewielder]

Well, three people got to have territory in Asia (two of them new), bad RP was stopped, the inevitable declaration of the rebirth of DKT was stopped, and a humanitarian crises in Asia was dealt with. Sounds fair to me

EDIT: and did I mention peace, stability, and unity was temporarily in place in Asia?

And what do those have to do with ANY of the points I addressed? The points I addressed were OOC points, and you bring up IC ones? Way to evade the questions.

[Lord Frost]

And what do those have to do with ANY of the points I addressed? The points I addressed were OOC points, and you bring up IC ones? Way to evade the questions.

See: 1st two of my points. OOC points which do more then address your questions

[hawk11]

You attempt to take land you aren't aware belongs to someone else, only to have that person declare war IC. Other players bandwagon and declare on you, despite your offer to retcon the whole situation, and even the eventual agreement with the first player to declare on you that it should be retconned... Now, does that really sound fair to anyone?

Honestly, I'd have so much more sympathy if she didn't do almost the exact same thing after I cut her free. There's absolutely no excuse for not checking the map.

[Subtleknifewielder]

See: 1st two of my points. OOC points which do more then address your questions

They could be considered IC from a certain point of view...but the important thing is that they do NOT address any of the points I made. I repeat--read over the situation carefully, think if it happened to you...and THEN say whether you think it would be fair.

Honestly, I'd have so much more sympathy if she didn't do almost the exact same thing after I cut her free. There's absolutely no excuse for not checking the map.

It's a little hard to check the map WHEN IT ISN'T UP-TO-DATE.

[hawk11]

It's a little hard to check the map WHEN IT ISN'T UP-TO-DATE.

It isn't polite to raise your caps over something that isn't true. I pulled the map images from this post directly off the map. Are you through irrationally white-knighting this situation or am I going to have to prepare a logic bomb?

[Subtleknifewielder]

It isn't polite to raise your caps over something that isn't true. I pulled the map images from this post directly off the map. Are you through irrationally white-knighting this situation or am I going to have to prepare a logic bomb?

The images, I'm pretty sure, were only updated after she made the request. And some people don't like to have to slog through dozens of pages just to find the post that contains the up-to-date map. Unless LVN is simply letting others do the work and updating the OP as they do it?

[Lord Frost]

They could be considered IC from a certain point of view...but the important thing is that they do NOT address any of the points I made. I repeat--read over the situation carefully, think if it happened to you...and THEN say whether you think it would be fair.

It's a little hard to check the map WHEN IT ISN'T UP-TO-DATE.

Map was updated enough, and there have been plenty of RP threads about it. She constantly accuses me and others of not-reading, no excuse why she can't read herself.

And yes, I still think its perfectly fair. Add my two previous OOC points and also consider that had we, teh ebil invaders, not ignored your ruling on ret-conning, two new players and one old (justinian), would have had to undo all of their RPs and be wiped from the map, very horrible RP or lack of RP at all would've been allowed to continue (not that it matters, she's doing the exact same things for the third time as Yamato anyway), and a VERY bad precedent would have been set. I don't know how you continue to think this is fair, but I see no reason for any kind of rule that allows for people to undo their legit IC actions once the consequences of those actions start to fall on them. (also, sargun only agreed to ret-con because he was tired of Sumer spamming the forums and the constant arguing over the issue).

She had every opportunity to counter-RP, to counter-Fight, and she didn't. As per usual, this thread is just another attempt at trying to avoid the consequences of Past actions. ONLY sumeragi is capable of causing so much ooc trouble on issues that most Rpers would have no trouble adjusting too. What did Justinian do when he got rolled by the NC? started a new nation as well as do some RP in regards to removing the NC from their land. What did Kaiser Martens do when Europe got nuked to hell in a hand-basket? RPed Anarchy and rebuilding, and now look what he's made of himself; a right little European Empire. What did I do when I got rolled 3 times as NJ? I counter RP-d. Riots, an unhappy population, some other internal RP, anti-occupation RP, etc. LVN went to create Rockport after leaving IW, Botha is ALWAYS rping IG and IC consequences, Mudd has always dealt with the consequences of his actions his own way; the list goes on.

There is your answer subtle

Edit: grammar

Edited May 21, 2009 by Lord Frost

[hawk11]

The images, I'm pretty sure, were only updated after she made the request. And some people don't like to have to slog through dozens of pages just to find the post that contains the up-to-date map. Unless LVN is simply letting others do the work and updating the OP as they do it?

That is terrible logic. You may be willing to allow laziness and sloppy research constitute a retcon of all actions that result from it, but us living in the real world are not.

[Subtleknifewielder]

Sometimes there's just no way to read everything. It's possible to miss important details. Even I occasionally fall behind, and as one of the most active RP'ers, that's saying something. So if someone misses an important detail, it's never truly clear who should be blamed for their mistakes.

And when she accuses you of not reading--it's after you have posted in the threads where she makes such accusations.

And yes, I still think its perfectly fair. Add my two previous OOC points and also consider that had we, teh ebil invaders, not ignored your ruling on ret-conning, two new players and one old (justinian), would have had to undo all of their RPs and be wiped from the map,

Wrong. the ruling we made allowed for the new RP'ers.

very horrible RP or lack of RP at all would've been allowed to continue (not that it matters, she's doing the exact same things for the third time as Yamato anyway), and a VERY bad precedent would have been set.

both matters of opinion and perception, not actual facts.

I don't know how you continue to think this is fair, but I see no reason for any kind of rule that allows for people to undo their legit IC actions once the consequences of those actions start to fall on them. (also, sargun only agreed to ret-con because he was tired of Sumer spamming the forums and the constant arguing over the issue).

How do you know why Sargun agreed to it? Are you a mind-reader? If both people agree to dissolve or retcon an issue between them, it is their right as RP'ers.

She had every opportunity to counter-RP, to counter-Fight, and she didn't. As per usual, this thread is just another attempt at trying to avoid the consequences of Past actions. ONLY sumeragi is capable of causing so much ooc trouble on issues that most Rpers would have no trouble adjusting too.

Did she? We don't know what her RL schedule was like. She did say barely a couple hours after the spark that ignited the whole thing that she wouldn't have time to continue the RP--and that was before Sargun posted the IC declaration of war.

And Sumer is hardly the only one to raise an OOC stink over an issue she does not believe is fair.

What did Justinian do when he got rolled by the NC? started a new nation as well as do some RP in regards to removing the NC from their land. What did Kaiser Martens do when Europe got nuked to hell in a hand-basket? RPed Anarchy and rebuilding, and now look what he's made of himself; a right little European Empire. What did I do when I got rolled 3 times as NJ? I counter RP-d. Riots, an unhappy population, some other internal RP, anti-occupation RP, etc. LVN went to create Rockport after leaving IW, Botha is ALWAYS rping IG and IC consequences, Mudd has always dealt with the consequences of his actions his own way; the list goes on.

There is your answer subtle

No, those are simply examples of how things can be done. Yes, I acknowqledge retconning is not necessarily the best thing to do, but it is a legitimate option if i is agreed upon.

[Subtleknifewielder]

That is terrible logic. You may be willing to allow laziness and sloppy research constitute a retcon of all actions that result from it, but us living in the real world are not.

That's just it--some of us have to live in the real world, and don't have time to RP every little thing. That's not laziness or sloppiness--it's called not having enough time to do everything you would like.

[hawk11]

That's just it--some of us have to live in the real world, and don't have time to RP every little thing. That's not laziness or sloppiness--it's called not having enough time to do everything you would like.

If you've got time to make the post, you've got time to make sure the land you're trying to take is open. It takes five seconds to click the last page of the map thread and move backwards.

[Lord Frost]

That's just it--some of us have to live in the real world, and don't have time to RP every little thing. That's not laziness or sloppiness--it's called not having enough time to do everything you would like.

Or simply not doing it, as is Sumeragi's habit. It's simply too obvious to note that she doesn't read a single thread that doesn't involve whatever DKT state she happens to be RPing at the time.

And no, all of my examples are examples of how things SHOULD be done; In other words: actual RP. She has yet to actually RP anything that deals with the consequences of her actions, and instead comes here, to the OOC section of the threads, and and starts an OOC thread on why she believes she doesn't have to accept responsibility for past actions. Subtle, you can't deny that. There has not been one, single, time, that Karma came her way and she didn't choose to deal with it by OOC whining and spam. Not one.

Yes, I acknowqledge retconning is not necessarily the best thing to do, but it is a legitimate option if i is agreed upon.

Perhaps, Maybe! but the situation itself would have to be so bungled that neither side knows what is going on. Which was not the case. Her case was very cut-and-dry "oh crap here comes Karma. KK I take it all back". Even Sargun was refusing for a while to accept Ret-conning (he was after all, invaded). We've all seen the thread. Christ, the arguments OOC went on long enough. Better to just keep away from a blanket ruling, and instead rule on individual cases

EDIT: also, what hawk says. Really, checking simple facts in CNRP is not a difficult or time-consuming event. And if your in a situation where thats not the case; like say your in a situation where you really don't have time to be checking the forums, then you probably shouldn't be posting then.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Lord Frost

[Subtleknifewielder]

If you've got time to make the post, you've got time to make sure the land you're trying to take is open. It takes five seconds to click the last page of the map thread and move backwards.

Five seconds to check...how many pages is it now? 40? I think your calculations are the tiniest bit off...

Or simply not doing it, as is Sumeragi's habit. It's simply too obvious to note that she doesn't read a single thread that doesn't involve whatever DKT state she happens to be RPing at the time.

A bit of an exaggeration. She was too involved with world affairs, yet didn;t posses all the relevent fracts OOC-wise, and that's what got her rolled every single time.

And no, all of my examples are examples of how things SHOULD be done; In other words: actual RP. She has yet to actually RP anything that deals with the consequences of her actions, and instead comes here, to the OOC section of the threads, and and starts an OOC thread on why she believes she doesn't have to accept responsibility for past actions. Subtle, you can't deny that. There has not been one, single, time, that Karma came her way and she didn't choose to deal with it by OOC whining and spam. Not one.

I think on Operation Pacific Star. When it was gone back and done right, she did RP it. There are other examples, but obviously that's first and foremost in my mind.

Perhaps, Maybe! but the situation itself would have to be so bungled that neither side knows what is going on. Which was not the case. Her case was very cut-and-dry "oh crap here comes Karma. KK I take it all back". Even Sargun was refusing for a while to accept Ret-conning (he was after all, invaded). We've all seen the thread. Christ, the arguments OOC went on long enough. Better to just keep away from a blanket ruling, and instead rule on individual cases

Correction. She asked to take it back BEFORE the war declaration was made--I distinctly recall saying that before...

And if I recall, a ruling on the individual case was, in fact, made.

And the OOC from her is hardly a unique situation...I've seen many people complain OOC-wise, myself and you included.

EDIT: also, what hawk says. Really, checking simple facts in CNRP is not a difficult or time-consuming event. And if your in a situation where thats not the case; like say your in a situation where you really don't have time to be checking the forums, then you probably shouldn't be posting then.

Actually, it can be more time-consuming than one would think. I speak from experience. We should probably re-start the map thread every 20 or so pages at the maximum, so people have less to delve through. That might acually cut down on incidents like this.

[hawk11]

Five seconds to check...how many pages is it now? 40? I think your calculations are the tiniest bit off...

The most recent map is included on the last page.

You're also ignoring the fact: every time Sumeragi is not careful, it gets her rolled. If she feels like touching the electric fence every time the thought crosses her mind, fine, but I refuse to treat her like she's mentally challenged and make special exceptions for her. She's proven multiple times she's capable of higher brain function, and as such I vote we penalize her for her mistakes instead of erasing them. People talk about giving respect around here, I move we respect her by treating her like everyone else who makes a mistake in a situation where mistakes cannot be afforded, such as the delicate position her own RP has put her in.

And I invite you to screenshot this post and bring it up the next time I'm not careful. I sure as hell won't mope around the forums and yell "Whoa is me!" like she does every time like it's some kind of god-damn surprise.

Edited May 21, 2009 by hawk_11

[Subtleknifewielder]

The most recent map is included on the last page.

Was that also true each time Sumeragi made a land mistake?

[hawk11]

Was that also true each time Sumeragi made a land mistake?

Read new edit, tired of arguing your every beck and call.

[Subtleknifewielder]

The most recent map is included on the last page.

You're also ignoring the fact: every time Sumeragi is not careful, it gets her rolled. If she feels like touching the electric fence every time the thought crosses her mind, fine, but I refuse to treat her like she's mentally challenged and make special exceptions for her. She's proven multiple times she's capable of higher brain function, and as such I vote we penalize her for her mistakes instead of erasing them. People talk about giving respect around here, I move we respect her by treating her like everyone else who makes a mistake in a situation where mistakes cannot be afforded, such as the delicate position her own RP has put her in.

And I invite you to screenshot this post and bring it up the next time I'm not careful. I sure as hell won't mope around the forums and yell "Whoa is me!" like she does every time like it's some kind of god-damn surprise.

Too bad I'm not good with screenshots...

OK, you want to know the reason I am siding with Sumeragi on this issue? Because in the past I have not only allowed people who made offending posts about me to edit said posts...my fellow RP'ers have often extended me the same courtesy. I am sticking with the precedent that I was given.

Read new edit, tired of arguing your every beck and call.

Done. And what the heck do you mean beck and call? No one's forcing anyone to do anything here.

[Tahsir]

EDIT: and did I mention peace, stability, and unity was temporarily in place in Asia?

Frost, it usually takes two people to fight. Course I suppose one could punch them self in the face repeatedly and have self inflicted violence, but thats just silly. What I mean to say is, if you're not aggressive at someone generally they are not aggressive to you.

Don't pretend that just because sumer had a warlike nation, for a very short time, that she's the source of all the fighting in Asia.

[Sumeragi]

Give me time to read the walls of text The only reply for now:

Hawk, YOU asked me what territory Frost gave you on the day before I made the Japanese Empire thread. I said I didn't know, and was thinking Shandong. You left it at that, and I assumed JE still existed, for that was how the map was like. I was also using a cell phone at he time, so I couldn't check the maps when I made the JE thread.

As for the accustions of not reading: I was very busy when JE was reannexed, never mind the fact I do not see any news of it in Frost's threads.

[hawk11]

Hawk, YOU asked me what territory Frost gave you on the day before I made the Japanese Empire thread. I said I didn't know, and was thinking Shandong. You left it at that, and I assumed JE still existed, for that was how the map was like. I was also using a cell phone at he time, so I couldn't check the maps when I made the JE thread.

Let's actually take it a step further: I didn't even know I was given land when you queried me requesting a god forsaken land trade. Wanna know what I did though? I read Frost's post, then I checked the map thread. Process took me two minutes.

[Firestorm]

Sumeragi,

I don't think you are going to accomplish much here in CNRP with your current approach. I do believe people have fallen into the habit of being overly critical of you, but you are the one who has done a lot to bring that about. Really, if you want to rp then go rp. Build your nations, your characters, and create the foundation of your story that really seems to be horridly lacking.

As of now almost all of your threads seem to attract howls of outrage over this or that.

Do some RP or something and stop getting embroiled in this flame fights. My only suggestion for rerolls is that we enforce the roll that a reroll should be based on an entirely new character and nation that has absolutely no ties to the previous one.