Commander Benji Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm an outsider. I'm not playing TE this round. I don't really read the forums. From what I do read, lots of people don't seem to want this random $@! tech raid war thingy between NAAW/co and Blackwater/co Why the f*** not? Seriously. That's my question. This is TE, now bloody well act like it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagrr Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm an outsider.I'm not playing TE this round. I don't really read the forums. From what I do read, lots of people don't seem to want this random $@! tech raid war thingy between NAAW/co and Blackwater/co Why the f*** not? Seriously. That's my question. This is TE, now bloody well act like it! It's probably due to the fact its turned pretty nasty. Some of thats my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Benji Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) It's probably due to the fact its turned pretty nasty.Some of thats my fault. Again, who cares? This is TE! I have been playing CN for... maybe 4 months, how is it that I can grasp this concept, and some of you cannot. TE is about being nasty. It's about fighting. It's about curbstomping. It's about getting your hands dirty and actually TRYING to damage and TRYING to keep a nation down. That's the whole damned point, war! I'm not trying to be rude. I simply do not understand some of your points of view as to why you try peace out every single conflict. Please explain. Edited January 8, 2009 by Commander Benji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popsumpot Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Commander Benji, TE is suppose to be fun, but this has turned into a piss match that neither side is proud of, and I must say that I will admit my guilt in that I partook flaming/attacks on NAAW and co. Right now, it's not fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhrarn Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) It seems to me that you’re making a statement - an argument - rather than asking a question. But I’m going to act as though you really are asking a question, so that I may provide you with your answer. The answer to your question lies in the concept of sportsmanship. Every game has rules. Some are formal; some are informal. Why is that? Well, why do people play games to begin with? I would like to suggest that people play games to develop skill. Take up track, and you develop endurance. Take up tennis, and you develop coordination. Take up chess, and you develop strategic thinking. So if sports develop skills and abilities, how do you determine who is the most skilled? Answer: through competition. This is where rules come in. They’re there to provide a more or less even playing field for everyone; the idea being, that if everyone is playing according to the same rules, then the person who is the most skilled will win. Of course I’m ignoring the importance of things like attitude, and emotional equilibrium, but those are things that can be developed as well. The point is, that the best (most skilled) person will win. Notice that I didn’t say that the winner is the best. There are those who will dispute everything that I’ve just said. Instead of sportsmanship, they believe in gamesmanship. They believe that the idea isn’t to determine who is the most skilled, but to simply win – at all costs. And because they believe that winning is the only thing, they see nothing wrong with cheating. Lying is ok. Manipulation is ok. Breaking the rules is ok – as long as you don’t get caught. That’s the general theory, now let’s talk about CN:TE. Like CN: Standard Edition, CN:TE has certain rules One of those rules, an informal rule, has to do with alliances; namely, that alliances exist to protect their members. Now out of mutual respect, courtesy, and simple practicality, alliances generally observe a simple rule which states: “alliances don’t raid alliances.” So, if you have one alliance which repeatedly raids other alliances, it’s breaking one of the informal rules of CN. That alliance is essentially telling all other alliances, “I refuse to acknowledge your existence. I’m going to treat your members as though they are non-aligned. And if you try to protect your members, which by rights you are entitled to do, then I’m going to disrespect you even further by escalating the conflict in order to punish you for doing exactly what you’re supposed to be doing – protecting your members.” Need tech? Find a small alliance, the smaller the better. Losing a ground battle? Launch a nuke. Afraid that someone might nuke you in return? Spy away their nuke first. Afraid that someone might possibly develop a nuke? Nuke them before they can even buy one. Have an opponent who just left anarchy? Violate the cease fire. This is the conflict that you are seeing before you – a conflict between two different world views. Edited January 8, 2009 by Azhrarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurQ Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 “alliances don’t raid alliances.” Argument=Dead. That isnt true at all. If bigger dont raid smaller then what should MHA do all day, bake cakes? TE is for fighting and fun, not for round after round of peace. Take a look at the wars across the globe, alliances raid each other all the time. Usually either the raider gets hit by 1 or 2 as a response, or he doesnt, and everyone peaces out. Blackwater of course is different. They go make a big stink over a single raid on a nation that is inactive. If you guys had your way, we'd only be allowed to log in, buy infra, go raid those poor "none" guys and hold hands with other alliances. When some numbers on your screen turn into other numbers its not the end of the world. When did TE turn into such SERIOUS BUSINESS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 [OOC]It just simply comes down to what you believe is right. TE or not TE. I personally don't feel TE should be an open ground for a complete and total lack of ethics. If you choose to play the game that way, fine. We're choosing to play the game a slightly more honorable way, also fine. We are fighting, getting our hands dirty, etc. Trust me this isn't an easy job. I just think you can do it in a more professional and honorable way than its being done. *shrugs* [OOC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurQ Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Oh please, give it a rest already with the high-road talk. If everyone sat around and didnt attack anyone like in the Blackwater bizarro verion of TE, how fun would that be? Like it or not, your rhetoric about "honour" and "ethics" would serve only to stagnate the game. Some play the way it is supposed to be played while others, well I don't know what they do, play for 2 months and congratulate themselves for not tech-raiding anybody? The fact is that the alliances you got in your coalition are attacking for tech and land, under a pretense of helping-the-little-guy. Look at how angry they get if you soldier sell on them. TE as it should be. PS- How many honour points do your coalition get for their bombing raids and nuclear attacks during the ceasefire? The problem with faking the high ground is that you very often end up looking like a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trout1 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Us-New players need time,getting blasted non stop I would think will not give them"us" the time or interest to keep looking around for what the game has to offer. if you never get the time to build up the game will suffer I would think. to me the satisfaction of taking on a opponent of equal strength and win."my point" but Iv bin wrong before <S> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhrarn Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) “alliances don’t raid alliances.” Argument=Dead. That isnt true at all. If bigger dont raid smaller then what should MHA do all day, bake cakes? TE is for fighting and fun, not for round after round of peace. Take a look at the wars across the globe, alliances raid each other all the time. Usually either the raider gets hit by 1 or 2 as a response, or he doesnt, and everyone peaces out. Blackwater of course is different. They go make a big stink over a single raid on a nation that is inactive. If you guys had your way, we'd only be allowed to log in, buy infra, go raid those poor "none" guys and hold hands with other alliances. When some numbers on your screen turn into other numbers its not the end of the world. When did TE turn into such SERIOUS BUSINESS? You seem to have completely misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not out to spoil your fun. If you want to tech raid, why don't you raid MHA or one of the other large alliances? But if you are going to raid a small alliance, then at least be honest about it. "Yeah, we're picking on you 'cuz you're smaller, b/c we're too chicken!@#$ to pick on someone our own size. What'cha gonna do about it?" Well, we're showing you what we're gonna do about it. Hey, it's all about fighting and fun, right? So why are you complaining about the fact that we're fighting back ("make a big stink")? Oh please, give it a rest already with the high-road talk. If everyone sat around and didnt attack anyone like in the Blackwater bizarro verion of TE, how fun would that be? Like it or not, your rhetoric about "honour" and "ethics" would serve only to stagnate the game. Some play the way it is supposed to be played while others, well I don't know what they do, play for 2 months and congratulate themselves for not tech-raiding anybody? The fact is that the alliances you got in your coalition are attacking for tech and land, under a pretense of helping-the-little-guy. Look at how angry they get if you soldier sell on them. TE as it should be. PS- How many honour points do your coalition get for their bombing raids and nuclear attacks during the ceasefire? The problem with faking the high ground is that you very often end up looking like a hypocrite. Where did I say don't attack anyone? Where? Your comments reek of double-talk and hypocrisy. You say that CN:TE is all about fighting, so why did you get so upset about the fact that we decided to fight back? Why are you complaining that people are stealing your tech and land? You wanted a war; we gave you a war. So what's the problem? And btw, there was a cease fire? I never would have guessed due to the non-stop attacks upon my nation. Edited January 9, 2009 by Azhrarn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Muscarella Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 You seem to have completely misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not out to spoil your fun. If you want to tech raid, why don't you raid MHA or one of the other large alliances? But if you are going to raid a small alliance, then at least be honest about it. "Yeah, we're picking on you 'cuz you're smaller, b/c we're too chicken!@#$ to pick on someone our own size. What'cha gonna do about it?" Well, we're showing you what we're gonna do about it. Hey, it's all about fighting and fun, right? So why are you complaining about the fact that we're fighting back ("make a big stink")? it's not about larger alliances being too scared to pick on other large alliances, it's because smaller alliances usually arent a threat. people look for easy tech raids, not full on war with an alliance their size. it'd just be stupid and counterproductive to raid MHA because they would take our gained tech right back away. so to wrap things up, small alliances are an easy choice for people who dont want war. also, i would consider blackwater mid-sized. at least it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Muscarella Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 btw benji, i like your theory haha TE gives a lot of war practice that you can rarely get in SE. you sure you dont wanna come over and join? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammon Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Anyone can raid anyone, you just have to do the math to make sure that you are willing to suffer the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher X Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 it's not about larger alliances being too scared to pick on other large alliances, it's because smaller alliances usually arent a threat. people look for easy tech raids, not full on war with an alliance their size. it'd just be stupid and counterproductive to raid MHA because they would take our gained tech right back away.so to wrap things up, small alliances are an easy choice for people who dont want war. also, i would consider blackwater mid-sized. at least it was... Sethly, are you really serious? Have you checked what NAAW raiding policy has done to the NAAW alliance and her allies? Before you comment on what Blackwater "was..." you might want to check on what NAAW "is..." Fish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhrarn Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 it's not about larger alliances being too scared to pick on other large alliances, it's because smaller alliances usually arent a threat. people look for easy tech raids, not full on war with an alliance their size. it'd just be stupid and counterproductive to raid MHA because they would take our gained tech right back away. Not true. I routinely gain tech during 6vs1 wars. I was gaining tech vs all of my opponents in this conflict before I was nuked. It's all about skill. But of course if you don't have any, then yeah, pick on someone smaller and let the odds work in your favor... so to wrap things up, small alliances are an easy choice for people who dont want war. also, i would consider blackwater mid-sized. at least it was... Thank you for proving my point. You don't really want war. As one of your compatriots put it, what you want is to watch some numbers on your screen turn into some other numbers - you want to win. You're angry about the fact that you're being dropped in the ranks by a bunch of small alliances. Once again, those who claim to be all about fighting and fun do nothing but complain when war is brought home to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Muscarella Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 umm i said blackwater was a mid-sized alliance. our policy had you in the no-raid zone, so we didnt defend our guy because he was in the right, but because your defense team broke the peace that our leaders agreed on shortly after they hit. so anything going on now has nothing to do with the initial raid, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Muscarella Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Not true. I routinely gain tech during 6vs1 wars. I was gaining tech vs all of my opponents in this conflict before I was nuked. It's all about skill. But of course if you don't have any, then yeah, pick on someone smaller and let the odds work in your favor...Thank you for proving my point. You don't really want war. As one of your compatriots put it, what you want is to watch some numbers on your screen turn into some other numbers - you want to win. You're angry about the fact that you're being dropped in the ranks by a bunch of small alliances. Once again, those who claim to be all about fighting and fun do nothing but complain when war is brought home to them. well good for you, but i dont usually take risks when tech raiding, whenever that is. my skill was getting up to #30 without any attacks back. and you are right, i dont want war, but now that we are in it, i dont mind dropping NS... at least i am learning tactics and techniques while all of this is happening. I am also anything but angry... this whole experience has been fun, and i learned how to get out of anarchy with 3 LE guys on my back, on of which is at #2 in the top 10. Tell me winning a ground attack from him wasnt worth it ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Insane By Design Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Us-New players need time,getting blasted non stop I would think will not give them"us" the time or interest to keep looking around for what the game has to offer.if you never get the time to build up the game will suffer I would think. to me the satisfaction of taking on a opponent of equal strength and win."my point" but Iv bin wrong before <S> I know you speak for yourself but when i got blitzed by 3 nations, all of those nations were in the top 2% while I had just barely hit the 8% mark. And yes one of the nations was from LE if that means anything to you. Granted it did take them 3 days to get me into anarchy but one can only hold out for so long. But you know what, I would not have it any other way. This is TE after all. I just laugh at the "risk" they took in declaring war. Was it an acceptable war practice...yes but far from any honor is credited to them for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dochartaigh Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 tbh, this is a free for all. larger alliances raid smaller alliances all the time. i am in a small alliance, and i have seen many of the top 10 alliances raiding the alliance i am in routinely. the only thing that upsets me, is if a small alliance gets threatened for triple-teaming the raider or has war declared on them for defending the victim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurQ Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 So why are you complaining about the fact that we're fighting back Who's complaining? Looking at this forum, every second post you tell us all about how you got nuked. Boo-hoo. Your alliance is giving the talk of justice, honour and "whats right". You say only raid alliances bigger than you? Who should MHA raid? What about GDA? You want some sort of hierarchy of who its ok to raid? Thats ridiculous. You guys have played the poor victim since this thing started, thats the big stink. One tech raid on an inactive nation and you act like someone ZIed half your alliance. So enough with "Yeah, we're picking on you 'cuz you're smaller," One person. One. No-one was trying to farm Blackwater. As for my other quote, that was for Metal, not you (Someone should give that guy a raise, hes one top notch propaganda minister). why did you get so upset about the fact that we decided to fight back? Why are you complaining that people are stealing your tech and land? Haha, what? I don't know how you come up with this idea that I am upset. When I check my little nation and see some numbers changed either up or down, it makes no difference to anything. In TE I find its the big nations who get all uppity about fighting more than the smaller ones. One of your tech raiders that attacked me threatened to nuke me because I had the gall to CM him :lol: There is no double-talk. Unlike you, I don't complain about people fighting in a war game! I also like you you deftly skipped around the fact that your coalition nuked people during the ceasefire. You cant really talk of honour when things like that go on. I have a question for Blackwater while I'm here. Do you guys never raid anyone? If this war hadn't kicked off, would you still be building away? I'm guessing your M.O. must be to help other nations attack (or defend as you guys call it) big ones or something, because wouldnt it be a little dull just building until reset and finishing in 20-somethingth place? Has TE has become a bit more interesting since this war started for you? What with the constant forum posting, coalition formation, update blitzes, hanging at update in case of retaliations, peace talks etc. I imagine you must find it a more fun game. Even just a little? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azhrarn Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm pretty sure it was more than just one BW nation that was tech raided. I'm also pretty sure that it was your alliance that broke the cease fire first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FurQ Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 I'm afraid you are incorrect. Forgottenonez raided an 11 day inactive guy. We still have the thread in the forum if you'd like to see it. But lets not dance around it again. Ceasefire is debatable, but it looks like an LE guy bombed someone a few hours after it was called, not to mention the nukes. But hey, keep denying everything, we wouldnt want any bad PR. Some people might think you're having fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius C Nero Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Though it is true that TE is the fight club. TE is also practice in other areas of CN life. Diplomacy, Economics, etc. etc. Sure it is fun to blow the hell out of 2 nations just to prove how good you are. It is also fun to see how you can build your nation and find ways to build it faster and more efficiently. There is points given if you will to the largest nations at the close of each round. In this war, both sides took turns sucker punching their opponents, That is when it stopped being fun. Personally this whole thing makes me feel like Energizer's avvy. The mutual pissing contest has to stop so we can get back to having fun and enjoying TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaisport Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) I'm an outsider.I'm not playing TE this round. I don't really read the forums. From what I do read, lots of people don't seem to want this random $@! tech raid war thingy between NAAW/co and Blackwater/co Why the f*** not? Seriously. That's my question. This is TE, now bloody well act like it! _________________________________________ My take on CNte: Tech Raids = standard fixture of both CNte and CNs Wars = This is the premise of the game as there are no peace options Goals = Seems many people want to be #1 so they can introduce their flag into the CN world Politics: I've seen various responses to politics. It's a mixed bag about whether it should or should not be in CNte. If we think about it, if the ADMINS wanted it to be a free for all fight game with CNte, there would be no alliances, no teams, no senate races, etc. When there are alliances, it simply means a group of people playing together. Naturally, when groups of people form, there are politics that come into play. The larger the alliance, the more the politics. Someone said to me, cybernations (both CNs & CNte) can be played in 90 seconds but it is the forums where at lot of the playing is actually done. This is very true. We are virtual societies, a community with a common interest of playing CNte. With large groups of people you will also have different groups of interests. Half if not most of the fun is in the forums and chatting with people, setting up raids, strikes, and wars. But we are all human and sometimes things get carried away because someone said something that struck a wrong chord. I can bet you that most major wars if not all major wars in CNte and even CNs was caused by misunderstanding, conflict of interests, or ego. Heck wars in real life are caused by the same things. To say this is CNte and bloody well act like it makes no sense, because CNte is already acting like CNte... Wars, raids, politics is CNte. BTW, this also ties into the poll i conducted a few days ago. http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=44286 Thaisport Edited January 8, 2009 by thaisport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Benji Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Before I say anything else, Blackwater and NAAW, stop complaining about your war on my damned thread. Go whine about who is wrong somewhere else. So, if you have one alliance which repeatedly raids other alliances, it’s breaking one of the informal rules of CN. That alliance is essentially telling all other alliances, “I refuse to acknowledge your existence. I’m going to treat your members as though they are non-aligned. And if you try to protect your members, which by rights you are entitled to do, then I’m going to disrespect you even further by escalating the conflict in order to punish you for doing exactly what you’re supposed to be doing – protecting your members.”Need tech? Find a small alliance, the smaller the better. Losing a ground battle? Launch a nuke. Afraid that someone might nuke you in return? Spy away their nuke first. Afraid that someone might possibly develop a nuke? Nuke them before they can even buy one. Have an opponent who just left anarchy? Violate the cease fire. This is the conflict that you are seeing before you – a conflict between two different world views. That's interesting. Correct me if I am wrong, but basically you are saying that war is fine, the way this war was conducted is the reason why this war is not fine. IE, TE must keep ethical standards. Because personally, all of the above you mentioned seem perfectly acceptable things to do, in my opinion. To be honost, I think it's just a matter of ethics now, as I have said before. You are happy to engage in a war, but whenever the ethical consiquences get envolved, you all back down. In TE, I believe you need to lower your ethical standards. Some people will say this is wrong, and normally it would be. But this is not CNS, this a fighting tournament. Maybe you have to accept that to win, you do have to be brutal, and you do have to spy, backstab, and use dirty tactics. This is war, not a boxing match. Their are no rules. To say this is CNte and bloody well act like it makes no sense, because CNte is already acting like CNte... Wars, raids, politics is CNte. In your opinion, yes. I think politics has no part in CNTE. I also believe doing whatever you need to do to win a war is perfectly acceptable. btw benji, i like your theory haha TE gives a lot of war practice that you can rarely get in SE. you sure you dont wanna come over and join? ;-) I'm considering it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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