ShinigamiSama Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 Well, I am currently riding the ZI train, and find myself in bill-lock. I assume this is due to the usual, Anarchy, War weariness, etc. Imagine my surprise when I check my 'Pay bills screen and find that $588,000.00 out of the $609,380.80 in bills I owe is from improvements. If I destroyed my improvements, the $126,150.31 I have in taxes would be more than enough to pay my bills. My question is: Should I destroy my improvements? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Rupert Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 Well, the real question is do you have any other means (like receiving aid) of escaping bill-lock? If not, the choice seems simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 Well, I am currently riding the ZI train, and find myself in bill-lock. I assume this is due to the usual, Anarchy, War weariness, etc. Imagine my surprise when I check my 'Pay bills screen and find that $588,000.00 out of the $609,380.80 in bills I owe is from improvements. If I destroyed my improvements, the $126,150.31 I have in taxes would be more than enough to pay my bills.My question is: Should I destroy my improvements? If you are planning on being involved in war constantly (ie perma ZI) then probably it's best to destroy some of them. If you are only being ZIed, I'd save them, as they will really help in rebuilding and a 3 mil aid offer will go a long way to paying them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeJeezy Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 If you are planning on being involved in war constantly (ie perma ZI) then probably it's best to destroy some of them.If you are only being ZIed, I'd save them, as they will really help in rebuilding and a 3 mil aid offer will go a long way to paying them. these are pretty much my thoughts as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzygy Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 listen to the posters above. Its really simple. If you can get any peaceterms relatively soon, just wait until you are out of the wars and pay your bills with aid, these improvements GREATLY speed up your rebuilding time if you can keep them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorr Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Getting rid of your 5 labor camps would be smart as they do not help you at your infra level and won't help for a long while but the others are well worth holding onto if you can find aid to assist your rebuilding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinigamiSama Posted April 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) Thanks for the advice. I intend on sinking with the ship (Not surrendering until I hit ZI), but I will probably get peace sometime. Also, could someone confirm the advice on labor camps? Edited April 27, 2008 by ShinigamiSama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryura Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Getting rid of your 5 labor camps would be smart as they do not help you at your infra level and won't help for a long while but the others are well worth holding onto if you can find aid to assist your rebuilding. NO! WORST IDEA EVER. Labor Camps are the most important to keep, as you will not be able to get them for a long time if you don't keep them now, and they will be incredibly useful later on. Keep them. I had to rebuild about 1k infra with them and I'm glad I kept them, because it let me pay 1/2 bills on infra during the rebuild process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) The bills at that level are so cheap that the +5 happiness would make him more. The Labour camps would only be useful if he could swap, and as he doesn't have the citizens to swap he can't. Get rid of them. Edited April 27, 2008 by Kaiser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDave Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 NO! WORST IDEA EVER.Labor Camps are the most important to keep, as you will not be able to get them for a long time if you don't keep them now, and they will be incredibly useful later on. Keep them. I had to rebuild about 1k infra with them and I'm glad I kept them, because it let me pay 1/2 bills on infra during the rebuild process. If they were that good they were worth keeping, they would be purcahsed a lot sooner first time round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boondock Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 hold onto LCs till you get peace. Even if they only reduce your bills by 10,000 for your first backcollect after the war, it is worth it. Just destroy them permanently after your bill payment on the 19th day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 If they were that good they were worth keeping, they would be purcahsed a lot sooner first time round lol No, the reason they are worth keeping is that eventually you are going to want to have them and if you destroy them, it means that you will be either a) unable to have LCs until you regain enough improvement slots, in this case at least 37,000 citizens to start swapping if counted correctly, or B) destroy many of your income improvements. I guess it doesn't matter to me what you choose to do, because I don't care. It's not my nation and I'm not going to bother arguing in favor of something which will not affect me so do what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheyCallMeJeezy Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 lolNo, the reason they are worth keeping is that eventually you are going to want to have them and if you destroy them, it means that you will be either a) unable to have LCs until you regain enough improvement slots, in this case at least 37,000 citizens to start swapping if counted correctly, or B) destroy many of your income improvements. I guess it doesn't matter to me what you choose to do, because I don't care. It's not my nation and I'm not going to bother arguing in favor of something which will not affect me so do what you want. alden is right, keep them as you wont be able to swap until your citizen count is above you current improvement slot number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternos Astramora Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 alden is right, keep them as you wont be able to swap until your citizen count is above you current improvement slot number I agree as well. If you have 40 improvements including 5 LC's with 0 infra, destroying the five LC's means that you'll either have to destroy a lot of improvements in order to buy the five LC's back, or you'll just have to wait until you hit 40K citizens again until you buy LC's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorr Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 (edited) Unless he has someone pushing him up in infra giving him 3 to 15 million every 10 days they will hurt his income and you don't need them until you have 40k citizens anyways as they don't help you much until 4000 infra. So he will have the 40k citizens already by the time he has the need for the labor camps. Now if he had a bunch of other smaller improvements then he should keep them like 5 satellites 5 missle defense etc that would require him to have some 60 to 70k citizens. Then yes keeping the labor camps would be better in the long run. At first he will be loosing 100s of thousands of dollars. 5 happiness is x 4.15 x tax rate x citizens. so 20.75 x .28 x 3000 citizens means he looses 17430 at less than 300 infra (he should be getting at least 10 per infra plus the initial 150 extras) and infra up keep savings then is maybe 8000 so every day he looses approx 10000 plus the 15000 upkeep cost of 5 improvements so 25000 per day. If you do the math it isn't going to hurt if he drops the LC until he gets back to 40000 citizens. It will help him more than hurt him. The only exception if someone pumps 3 million into his nation every 10 days. Edited April 27, 2008 by Thorr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderland Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 they don't help you much until 4000 infra. No, this is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Rupert Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 Well, let's look at some math based on having the 5 resource build (the best build for his starting pair of Aluminum/Rubber) and 50 tech: at 500 infrstructure: * With the Labor Camps upkeep bills are $22.42 a point or $11,210 meaning the camps are saving $11,210 a day * The camps are costing $10,000 a day in upkeep costs and $29,050 a day in lost income for total losses of $39,050. * Profits minus losses equals ($11,210 - $39,050) -$27,840 lost every day keeping the Labor Camps at 1000 infrstructure: * With the Labor Camps upkeep bills are $49.67 a point or $49,670 meaning the camps are saving $49,670 a day * The camps are costing $10,000 a day in upkeep costs and $58,100 a day in lost income for total losses of $68,100. * Profits minus losses equals ($49,670- $68,100) -$18,430 lost every day keeping the Labor Camps at 1500 infrstructure: * With the Labor Camps upkeep bills are $71.31 a point or $106,965 meaning the camps are saving $106,965 a day * The camps are costing $10,000 a day in upkeep costs and $89,700 a day in lost income for total losses of $99,700. * Profits minus losses equals ($106,965 - $99,700) a $7,265 gain every day keeping the Labor Camps So by the time he reaches the point of having 1500 infrastructure, the Labor Camps will be turning a profit which will continue to grow as he adds more infrastructure. So it all comes down to whether he has a means of dealing with the short term losses the camps will cause because in the long term he'll benefit greatly by retaining the camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShinigamiSama Posted April 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 What a clear, consolidated answer Since I plan on doing tech deals constantly and getting some aid, I think I'll keep them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDave Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 1,120 citizens. 87 infra = 12.87 citizens per infra level. 5*100 for 3 million tech deals over 20 days will make about 7.5 million. 20 days of bills to pay with no infra upkeep. 7.5 million on infra, will result in 1,284 infra levels 1284 x 12.87 citizens per level 16525 citizens lets say, what, $60 tax per citizen with all income improvements still in place 16500 * 60 * 20 (19 if you do not want to risk deletion) 19,800,000 for the 20 day back collection. 1033 infra purchased 2317 infra 2317 * 12.84 = 29,000 Only now would infra camps be even remotely useful. Destroying the income improvemnts would hurt a lot more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorr Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Well, let's look at some math based on having the 5 resource build (the best build for his starting pair of Aluminum/Rubber) and 50 tech:at 500 infrstructure: * With the Labor Camps upkeep bills are $22.42 a point or $11,210 meaning the camps are saving $11,210 a day * The camps are costing $10,000 a day in upkeep costs and $29,050 a day in lost income for total losses of $39,050. * Profits minus losses equals ($11,210 - $39,050) -$27,840 lost every day keeping the Labor Camps at 1000 infrstructure: * With the Labor Camps upkeep bills are $49.67 a point or $49,670 meaning the camps are saving $49,670 a day * The camps are costing $10,000 a day in upkeep costs and $58,100 a day in lost income for total losses of $68,100. * Profits minus losses equals ($49,670- $68,100) -$18,430 lost every day keeping the Labor Camps at 1500 infrstructure: * With the Labor Camps upkeep bills are $71.31 a point or $106,965 meaning the camps are saving $106,965 a day * The camps are costing $10,000 a day in upkeep costs and $89,700 a day in lost income for total losses of $99,700. * Profits minus losses equals ($106,965 - $99,700) a $7,265 gain every day keeping the Labor Camps So by the time he reaches the point of having 1500 infrastructure, the Labor Camps will be turning a profit which will continue to grow as he adds more infrastructure. So it all comes down to whether he has a means of dealing with the short term losses the camps will cause because in the long term he'll benefit greatly by retaining the camps. Camps cost is 15000 upkeep I thought. His benefits will start to show at 2000 infra true if he has the best resources he can have 40k citizens around 3500 infra. If he does tons of tech deals or gets 3 million at least every 10 days then he can be up to 3500 to 4000 infra in no time. It all comes down to if he will get help rebuilding which I don't know seeing how the pirates haven't the best rep unless they managed to rebuild. I know I won't tech deal with them if people are going to attack them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count Rupert Posted April 28, 2008 Report Share Posted April 28, 2008 Cost of upkeep on improvements is based on the number he has total and he has 40-49 which is $2,000 a piece ot the $10,000 I used. Needs to be at 50 or more improvements to reach the $3,000 upkeep cost you indicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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