Sigrun Vapneir
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Posts posted by Sigrun Vapneir
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A very merciful peace. Hopefully this will end here.
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The reps being asked are tiny by comparison with reps IRON demanded from others in the past. IRON could pay them easily and quickly. For now, IRON prefers to argue and fight.
Disappointing.
Some of us who fought on the hegemony side took a stand then, why didn't Citadel and company join us then?In addition to there having been no Citadel at the time, it would have been *extremely* out of character for most of the folk that now make up the Citadel to do that then. NPO at that point could still claim to be a somewhat *benevolent* hegemon with a straight face, and UJP were the bad guys. Doh!
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To enumerate the flaws of Chris Kaos would be like reciting The Odyssey from memory. Chris was a troubled individual who had problems and all things considered probably shouldn't have been given the power he had.
So, despite the understanding that in general it's bad form to infringe the sovereignty of an alliance (particularly considering how often wars are one-sided curbstomps with no provocation lately,) the peace term that removed him was *not* an example of injustice perhaps?
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Accepting the fact that ZIing someone is going to piss them off?
Destroying a nation is going to piss the population off, so if you stop at ZI, then have every right to hate you. EZIing a nation is going to piss the leader off if he doesnt switch his name, so he has every right to hold a grudge. EZIing a nation with a new leader who still has a grudge can easily say its the old leader's son, or even a civilian from the last nation.
ICly, you can justify a grudge in anyway you want. OOCly, well its OOC. A grudge is a grudge.
Also, noone is looking at the RP concept of this, only the OOC outlook. Which is funny, considering I addressed it...three times now.
Thank you, at least, for that.
I agree with you completely. And I've never been against "EZI" absolutely. I have had people before who just kept coming back over and over again attacking us with nation after nation because we defended one of our own alliance member when he "raided" said alliance member, for an example. It was a fair bet on our part that his 6th nation was going to attack us just like the previous 5, so watching for it and even hitting preëmptively when we could made sense, no?
So sometimes it makes sense OOC. Still effectively genocide IC, PZI is as well though, that could be played around if people could be arsed to care.
But for the past year or so it seems more and more often there it is practiced as a mode of griefing, and there really is a big difference.
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I do think NPO would have been attacked, though I wish it had occurred that way rather than the way it did, since it would have been just NPO getting curbstomped instead of the rest of the hegemony.
Even if that were true (and we'll never know now) any coalition that would have attacked the NPO would be missing a large portion of the force that wound up uniting because they started it, and almost certainly lost.
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Sometimes it gets tiring to put the effort into holding an alliance together.
This. And sometimes it is better to disband than to continue to exist as a shadow/refutation/parody of yourself. Or as a puppet.
But if that's why an alliance disbanded, then when it becomes possible for them to exist again, if they want to, then more power to them.
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Have fun on the other side werefrog.
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Who/what the Illyrian was and their relationship, if any, with Albania, is still a bit of an open academic debate IIRC.
Also, indo-european is a linguistic characterisation, it has nothing to do with ancestry. My own Aesir tribes are more african than scandinavian in ancestry, but not in language or culture, for instance.
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Yes I believe that spying is always a valid CB.
Spying is certainly a valid reason for concern and action, potentially up to and including war.
However what was presented was not evidence of spying. At least not in that sense. It was evidence of Blackstone spying. But only that OV received information. And receiving information is not the same thing as spying.
Had the NPO gone to OV as a way to get at Blackstone, and pulled this out and said 'we know you had contact, here's how, now you need to help us get them' that would have been pretty reasonable.
Demanding removal/expulsion/zi of the guy who was shown only to have recieved information, not to have done any spying himself, was on the other hand not appropriate, and rather makes the whole thing sound more like a farce or a shakedown than a real negotiation however.
It came out, IIRC, that the information used against OV was in fact obtained from Blackstone themselves, who had already disbanded by the time OV is attacked, and who quite curiously passed on this nugget to their sworn enemies as a farewell present! In effect we have the spies themselves, the actual culprits against whome the CB would be valid, simply walking away apparently scot free, and at the same time someone known only to have received information was being threatened with a beatdown war for his whole alliance!
Come on, surely you can smell this one.
This, combined with the testimony from NPO allies they werent even informed anything was going to happen, just paints a picture of the height of hubris.
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First off GOONS (Goon Order of Neutral Shoving) hasnt reformed. A different GOONS alliance (Goons Order of Negligence and Sadism) from a dead world migrated here. Second why shouldnt communities that have been repressed come back out and flourish when their repressors lose the power to enforce exile? That seems to be what's happened in most of those cases.
Umbrella is an exception. They do have the same roots, but much more exclusive community.
[edit to clarify goonses]
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While the factual elements may be correct, I dont agree with the spin.
They were not sitting online ready to do something because they had no warning, apparently.
It's not unreasonable to need one cycle to organise - and probably none of them have had to do it that quickly in a long time, perhaps in some cases never.
Hence the cancellations in protest. Serves as a protest, yes, has another purpose too they didnt point out for obvious reasons. But it did confuse us a little, and give their late blitz at least a little more force than it would have otherwise had.
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Cool story Bro, but I was born into the mentality of friends>infra and that's the way I'll stay.
A well-loaded spinball implying that we must feel the opposite.
Entirely ignores the fact that we had lots of friends involved, not just them.
We are doing our best to do what we can for ALL of our friends, on both sides. While you are, as always, trying to stir up bloodlust and chaös.
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See what happens when you make ASSumptions?
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This isn't the first time most of the world's alliance were embroiled in conflict and as such is not the first world war. I'll be calling it Great War 5/Karma War or GW5 for short since I'm part of the sensible majority that believes the Unjust War was also a Great War (which started out even-sided and could have easily gone wrong for ~).
Coulda shoulda woulda. Fact is that UJP sputtered out and died without the conflict ever actually broadening out to become a GW.
Which means this is GWIV right now.
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After two years of a terrorist regime, everyone has a little blood on their hands. I think that's at least one reason there is so much willingness to let most everyone go with light terms whenever they get tired of it. And really that's healthy. Those that were just a little slow moving and got stuck where they didnt want to be will appreciate it and move on. If anyone is just using it as a ruse... so what? That will just make the game more interesting next month and next year.
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Whatever my personal opinions, I must say that Margrave of "New Sith Order" is really in character. Good job. Hatred leads to revenge leads to power! Or however it's supposed to go.
Except that this is the OOC forum...
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I grant that the NPO might have overreacted. I'm just saying things aren't as simple and black and white as people make them out to be. I think that the demonizing of some people and the lionizing of others is largely what causes the problems on Planet Bob and I was just pointing out a case where I thought the demonizing wasn't entirely warranted.
I realise you are just trying to be reasonable but you couldnt possibly be more wrong.
I was there and I was in a position to know.
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its called a self fulfilling prophecy. so many of you claim that npo has to be wiped off the map, that npo has no choice but to take an aggressive stance simply to protect their very existence.
one could argue it is the other way around, that npo ultimately made unfounded fears come true... but i think that is unlikely, as people have been trying to take them down since the beginning of cn, simply because they were always at the top.
While this is true, those people have never been able to accomplish anything significant on their own. They needed help, and the people that would be able to help them (I'm counting myself in that) didnt have any interest in it - in fact, up until a little over a year ago I, for example, would have been ready and willing to take the NPOs side if they had faced a serious threat. I certainly had no interest in going against them - I am not of chaos, but of order. They were not perfect, but they brought and sustained order, and their blemishes and imperfections were (at least from my position) rather minor and forgiveable in the bigger picture.
Yeah. Then one day they destroyed my alliance. Why? Because they were bored. Because they could.
Can anyone blame me if I dont like them so much now? If I am no longer willing to defend them? Their actions have had consequences. Every individual has a slightly different story, but there are a LOT of people that would be devoted supporters of the NPO right now, if Pacifica herself had not been so arrogant in her later actions.
Yes, some people hate them just because they're number 1, there have always been haters and and there always will be, think of them as *necessary* enemies. But the NPO are where they are now not because of them alone, but rather because the NPO themselves finally drove enough people that would otherwise have been supporters or at worst neutral to the other side, because they just kept making *unecessary* enemies to add on top of the necessary ones, and eventually swing the balance away from them.
Hence why "karma" is such an appropriate reference for their spot today.
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Look Margrave, I have no beef with former UJP members. Some are really good folks, and they were then too.
But the UJP *alliances* as alliances had been begging for a thrashing for a long time before that point. I spent way too much time dealing with them to forget what they were, and if the war hadnt ended so quickly and so poorly I probably would have left my own alliance to fight against them then.
Obviously you arent going to agree with my perspective, any more than I am going to with yours, but understand that just as you have a right to try and propound your view I have the same right to my own.
I dont think you will disagree with the core of my point in bringing UJP up though - the disbandment of those alliances, in the end, merely resulted in a lot of former UJP members with every reason to carry a grudge dispersed through alliances all across the planet, which was one of several converging factors leading to the abrupt loss of station the NPO is now experiencing. Imposing the same kind of terms again is likely to lead to the same outcome, no?
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Electron Sponge, I dont usually agree with you, but you have been making some good points here.
The argument that demanding "harsh" terms (where harsh has very different meanings depending on who is talking) of the NPO would be hypocrisy is wrong. Claiming that is nothing by propoganda and hyperbole, similar to claiming that it is hypocritical to be against murder yet in favour of the death penalty. There wouldnt be anything particularly hypocritical against imposing on them the same sort of terms they have imposed on others during their reign of terror which by my count lasted about 2 years.
However, that doesnt mean that this should be done either, simply that claiming it must be taken off the table a priori is is nothing but a propoganda ploy that shouldnt be taken seriously. There *are* some good reasons why some of the terms they've given out in the past shouldnt be used *even though it would be just* because the predictable outcome would still be bad.
As an example the fate of the UJP alliances should be considered. Bloodthirsty warmongers, and deserving of their fate (as Margrave proves yet again in this very thread!) AND YET it didnt really work out so well in practice nonetheless. UJP members dispersed all across the planet and became more, not less, dangerous.
In retrospect less "harsh" terms would have actually been more effective, in that case and others. A lesson I hope the alliances who are actually at war with the NPO directly will take to heart when the time does come for them to give terms to their foes.
So neither true white peace, nor the ultra-light terms that people keep referring to incorrectly as white peace, are appropriate - but on the other side forced disbandment and most thoughts along that line are very poor ideas as well. Even if the opponent deserves them, they are just guaranteed to backfire and do more harm than good.
However IMOP forced neutrality might be a better option, if care is taken with the implementation. But again, this is for good or ill something that really only those directly at war with the NPO get a say in, the rest of us can only advise.
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Congratulations and best of luck in the future FAN.
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Frankly I think the CoC term itself is offensive and inflammatory propaganda.
The NPO has been so dominant in this game for so long that pretty much every alliance around on every side has had to some degree a relationship of convenience with the NPO just to avoid being casually slaughtered on a whim, up until quite recently.
It was only a few months ago that Grämlins left Q, and the conventional wisdom was that *we* had committed suicide. I think that if it had been someone less obviously prepared to defend themselves the conventional wisdom would have been right. Slowly others planned and executed their exits. I am sure that some more exits were planned but some move more slowly than others for whatever reason...
Some people are fighting right now against the hegemony that were nominally part of the hegemony only days before this started.
And the flip side of that is that some people are fighting for the hegemony today only because their leaders were a little slower than the pack, and waited too long to cancel their own ties.
Clearly, it would make no sense to impose any sort of harsh sanctions across the board in such a situation. Those that fight honourably for a time to fulfil their obligations and then seek peace shouldnt be tormented unecessarily, and it's good to see that they are not.
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Loaded words. You claim this is what every alliance on our side is doing, and yet if the truth about this war ever gets out, it will become clear that's not what we're doing.
If Karma had wanted an end to attacks on OV, it was available to them the day after the initial attacks, by your very own admission. So do not spin this as an attempt to defend against unwarranted aggression, because if simple defense had been your goal, the solution was there.
Uhh no.
It's Karma. That isnt a person, or a group. It is the principle better known in the western tradition with the phrase "as ye sew so shall ye reap."
Also relevant in these times of chaos is the concept of Heaven's Mandate.
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I've addressed this before and I'll do it once again.
You can *address* it all you want, it wont go away. It was something to be ashamed of for the rest of your life.
First, I wasn't the detective...there were more than a few people in more than a few alliances. I was just the clearinghouse of intel because I had been the most vocal.A "clearinghouse" for lies and random hallucinations? Is that supposed to make you less culpable?
Secondly, tying 2 internet pseudonyms together and calling a spade a spade is not libel.But what you did is. Fortunately for you none of the children you attacked appear to have money to spare for lawyers though.
So be careful when making wild accusations...especially since we didn't reveal any RL names or identities.You did the latter, and the former is advice you should have listened to... a long time ago.
As for your last comment, apparently it's you that have taken this game too seriously.Hmmm you sound like this guy guy I grew up with's Dad, actually. He would cheat any way he could for his kid, just ridiculous stuff, and when he got called out for it he said the *other* people were taking the game too seriously.
I'm not taking the game seriously here. *You took this out of the game.*
IRON Surrenders
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
/me salutes IRON, an honourable foe.
And I am very happy to see we are again at peace. May this one last even longer than the last one.