Sigrun Vapneir
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Posts posted by Sigrun Vapneir
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I like you, just because you are one of the few people who see what we are seeing.
I believe the irony of that post must have sailed right over your head. Go back and look at the AA of the poster.
Fact is, only one alliance on planet bob has a history of behaving like that. The one you have chosen to join. No one is forced to wear an AA, they are chosen, and when you put one on you get the badwill as well as the good. Tis silly to complain about that. If the shoe doesnt fit take it off.
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I will take some personal extrapolation from this and say, they want an Eternal War, they just don't want the Bad PR from it being their faults. They are trying to establish that they gave us something and so long as we don't accept, its the NPO's fault, not Karma's for the continuation of this war.
If you believe this is true you must be positively livid with your own government for playing so completely into their hands, no?
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Tyga, sorry if I misunderstood you. No point to say more I think, that conversation has run its course.
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The people I responded to di dnot understand what I was saying, that is why I had to repeat it 3 or 4 times until they did. And as to your point, th issue was reflecting the majority. Whether it be one vote or 10, it is still a majority and when you vote to reflect the majority you tend to ignore the minority as a result.
I didnt respond to this simply because I was too many pages behind when I saw it the first time... and by it I mean the allegation that the intention in a vote must always be to reflect solely the majority view.
There's just no reason this has to be the case. If it's a 51-49 split it would in fact be more accurate to translate that into 1 aye and 1 nay than into two ayes.
Thought experiment - two alliances are 90% plus aye. 3 alliances are 51-49 nay. One way of voting that's 7-3 aye. One way it is 6-4 nay. Which outcome is best? Assuming the alliances are of comparable size, 7-3 aye would more closely mirror the popular vote. But 6-4 nay would reflect the fact that the majority of the alliances are deeply conflicted and only two really have a consensus to vote aye.
Either method of counting is legitimate depending on what the architects of the system are trying to do.
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Being a member of clergy does not make one a holy man.
Quite the opposite, it seems, at least in most cases.
I wonder what Walford is doing now though.
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As I understand it:
Each alliance has two representatives. It is entirely up to each sovereign alliance to determine who represents them. Lux Aeterna does not make any presumption about our government form, or dictate internal procedures. Therefore of course it is logically possible for an alliance to send two representatives that wind up voting differently.
If STA were a member of Citadel I suppose Tyga would have to appoint a second representative, so even in that case it would be possible for STA to split their vote. Although presumably the fact that Tyga could replace that second representative at any time would be a strong factor to discourage it.
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Exactly. Attacking a neutral (almost by definition) doesn't improve your political situation, so if it is economically bad (basically, if the neutral is going to nuke) there is no point in the war.
That is true IRL but not necessarily so in cybernations.
Many players are more than willing to take nukes. Something nations in real life are extremely averse to doing. This changes the equation drastically.
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Interesting indeed. Considering their actions that short time later in starting the Karma War (which clearly showed that they were happy to be aggressive against VE/SF and therefore that they were not preventing the war for any greater moral purpose), I can only assume that they realised that attacking VE directly would cause them to lose. That makes it even stranger that they then failed so badly to see the scale of the defence that would come to the aid of OV.
Yes, that really doesnt make sense.
The alternative hypothesis that comes to mind immediately is simply that their dislike of ODN was the key factor.
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My story, I think, is not a unique one in Pacifica. People are able to contribute in meaningful ways, but it requires maturity and understanding to contribute effectively.
Nor is it unique to Pacifica. Any functional alliance has stories just like that. So?
When you catch a serial killer you dont let him free just because he was a nice guy to his wife and kids at home.
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And having allies warn us of someone stealing private information is not akin to spying.
I'm sorry, I must have missed the treaty announcement where NPO and Blackstone Collusion admitted to being allies, could I get a link?
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There is a difference between accepting information critical to the security of your alliance and accepting information that you have no business knowing.
Argue that all you want.
A very subjective and squishy difference for your board lawyers to have fun arguing with, yes. Just about any piece of information you could think of, one could argue on the one hand was at least potentially critical to ones security and simultaneously you could make the other argument as well.
In contrast, the difference between spying and receiving information is clear and unambiguous. Every attempt is being made to blur that distinction but it only works on those who are dead set on finding some excuse, any excuse, for what NPO did.
Now, I said at the time, and I will stand by it - IF the NPO had come to OV playing the heavy with their "evidence" in a legitimate attempt to counter Blackstone, I would have been supportive of that. Blackstone was spying, the evidence showed there was a connection of some sort with Sethb, it would have been legitimate to try and use that as a lever to get cooperation and information to use against Blackstone.
Instead Blackstone were allowed to go their own way, peacefully and unmolested, while apparently handing over the "evidence" to the NPO as a love token. Now why Blackstone was sending love tokens to their supposed arch-enemies there is a question for another day, but it's hard not to suspect the obvious.
At any rate, as there was no focus on the actual spies and no attempt to get at them, the evidence of spying just has no logical connection to the assault on OV.
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If they have a memory they would, yes. The hegemony was created while you were still a major player in NPO.
While that is true, not everyone found the Hegemony objectionable in and of itself.
Speaking for myself I would keep an open mind. I had a lot of interaction with the NPO while Ivan was running it and I liked them, a lot. Never had a problem with them. Hegemonists? Sure. But whether it was real or only a clever ruse, they seemed a reasonably benevolent and honourable hegemony at the time. Reasonable people that could be dealt with.
Later, when I had to deal with them under Moo, however, none of that was true. There was neither the reality nor the facade of benevolence, or honour. Just brute force, sadism, and arrogance.
Now maybe the change didnt coincide with Moos ascension. I was kind of tuned out for a bit between the two periods. Maybe the old NPO just *pretended* to be decent folk because they didnt feel secure enough. Maybe the later, arrogant NPO was their real face all along. But for me that's just speculation, what I know is I never had a problem with them earlier. So I would be more than willing to give it a chance.
Not likely to happen, though.
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It's not just contrary to what everyone else thinks - I would be the first to say that if you agree with everyone else you are probably wrong.
The trouble is you guys seem to believe totally crazy things, demonstrably, objectively untrue. Like I have seen MANY NPO members who obviously believe they are in a defensive war. This is demonstrably, objectively wrong. It isnt a matter of opinion.
Similarly, many seem to think that OV was proven to be spying. In fact no evidence was ever presented that OV was spying. There was clear evidence that Blackwater was spying. Blackwater apparently handed that evidence to the NPO as a love token right before they disbanded and the spies walked away with a nod and a wink from the NPO.
It is obvious that the NPO leadership is busy stuffing the members with lies. It's not surprise if the members tend to believe the leaders, and then parrot those lies, in fact I would be surprised if it were otherwise. However the sad fact is that the more effective they are at this, the worse the situation becomes for the membership.
Fighting an "eternal war" against unjust attack, when one has no other option, is one thing. That would be noble, and draw admiration and praise. Fighting an "eternal war" by *choice*, when your side launched the unjust attack to begin with, when merciful terms have been offered and rejected, entirely because your leaders refuse to admit to the facts of the matter, is not. It's stupid, tragic even.
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Hi Daimos,
Are you new or returning?
What will be of the NPO after this war?I hope it will manage to admit its mistakes and learn from them. In this case I could see it growing to take up a prominent and honourable role in the world again, as it did some years ago.
I fear, however, it will be allowed to find peace in its current position, with the current leaders, and become nothing more than an ignorant and bitter collection of pawns for them to use as they plot revenge.
What kind of changes do you see the NPO will do after this war?Basically see the first answer. Depends on which way that goes.
Will the NPO play a role on the next war? If so, in what capacity?Regardless of which way things go otherwise, the NPO will likely be laying low and building strength when the next medium-sized or larger war hits. I assume you mean that - small ones happen every day.
Will there be an alliance that is willing to sign a treaty with the NPO, If so, which ones?Do you see any Karma alliance being allied with the NPO? If so, who and why?
It all depends on what road y'all choose
Also remember that "Karma" is a force of nature, not an alliance
It's being called the Karma war (although more properly called GWIV) because the simple fact is the NPO p***ed off/on just about the entire civilised world over the past year. It terrorised many, many victims, some completely innocent, some less so, but in the end it just made so many enemies that very nearly the entire world spontaneously moved together to bring it down. That isnt something that just happens. That took MANY months of work, poor work but work nonetheless, on behalf on NPO government. When virtually the entire planet stood up as one to end that reign of terror, it wasnt a strong coalition with real ties. Just an incredible mass of people standing up at once and saying "no more!" So of course once the current war ends you can expect those alliances to go different ways. If my hopes come true, you could wind up allied with some of the more peaceful alliances, if not then you will wind up allied with others, either way I suspect it will happen though.
Will the NPO seek vengeance? If so, which alliance(s)?Case 1: No, NPO will quit blaming others for NPO actions and realise there is no need for vengeance.
Case 2: Absolutely. NPO will find new focus by planning the humiliation and destruction, one after the other, of each and every alliance that fought against them, and several of those who defended them as well.
Will the NPO disband?Not likely would be my guess, but your guess might be better than mine on this. That depends entirely on internal NPO factors.
I wouldnt want to see that happen, but then again if y'all cant get a decent government in it would probably be better to disband than continue to drag the name of Pacifica down.
Will there be a leadership change in the NPO?Required for scenario 1 I suspect. Also seems unlikely at this point, unfortunately. But it really is your only hope.
Do you want to see a leadership change in the NPO? If so? Who do you want to lead it?Yes, absolutely.
Who? That is for the NPO to answer. But you need a wholesale .gov purge if you are to have any chance of becoming respectable again IMOP.
What kind of political influence the NPO have left towards the CN community? Do they still have any?NPO influence was squandered by your leaders ages ago. They seem to have felt that they had enough raw power they no longer needed it. If you manage to reform and become respectable again, you will regain some influence.
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I dont agree with eternal war without condition, even for them.
But if it were my call they wouldnt be offered peace again until their .gov is changed.
Once those who pulled the strings are gone and someone who is not total scum becomes Emperor, white peace would be fine with me. But I wouldnt even discuss the issue until there is wholesale regime change.
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Beyond pulling their sanction, I don't really see any other punishment that makes sense. The massive reparations, the toying with how many can be at war and how many have to have this tech or that tech seems rather superfluous to me. They have dishonoured themselves, let the world see their dishonour.
Personally I couldnt see any outcome that leaves the "leaders" of the NPO in place as even approximating justice. The majority of the members, like in any alliance, are probably relatively ignorant and innocent, it is the leaders who have ridden the NPO down from the top of the world to the bottom with their actions. They work in the shadows to hide their dishonour, and clearly control the information the rest of the alliance receives quite effectively.
Of course the NPO members are free to leave, and it's easy to say anyone left at this point must be scum like those they follow, but I believe that would be a significant misunderstanding of the situation. From what I can see the rank and file appears to be so thoroughly disoriented and confused by the propaganda they are being fed they actually think this is a defensive war!
I believe, and may bodies of law agree, that someone so thoroughly out of touch with reality cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. So I couldnt really view as just any punishment that targets them.
But if the leaders are allowed to escape punishment, if indeed terms are eventually agreed to that leave them in place while demanding heavy reps of the rank and file, this will only solidify the place of those leaders, and the effects of their propoganda internally as well.
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Congrats OMFG,
FCC! -
Considering the contents of the most recent pacifican announcement, I am shocked anyone is even willing to offer the NPO terms. Certainly if the boot were on the other foot they would not treat you so kindly.
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A very honourable announcement. No surprise there.
Keep doing it right NoR.
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Maybe OP just doesn't want to be viewed in the same light as his previous alias. Maybe he wants to RP a different role this time around. You can't truly start with a clean slate if you're viewed in a prior light. If its a new character, carrying no former grudges or bias I don't think people should poke and prod.
If he were really playing a new character it would be unlikely to have come up in the first place.
Then your alliance is more of an OOC organization. You're not accepting a nation ruler or a nation. You're digging into the player personally in order to see if they can join an IC organization?To be fair, it's an IC organisation which requires both as a practical and normally legal necessity access to an OOC private computer system, with OOC forums, etc.
Also whenever these things come up it seems the person involved isnt really RPing squat, it's just a dodge. Potato says "you said you were a noob but acted like you knew everyone" - that doesnt sound like RPing a new character to me...
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Yes, yes we are.
I thought that was MK?
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I'm sorry, where were you when it was GATO or GPA using peace mode again?
At any rate, if you were an economist, you might be familiar with the concept of opportunity cost. Even if they are gaining NS and will continue to do so despite ongoing war, they will gain it much slower than they would in peace.
The logical consequences of this is that if they want peace they are better off getting serious about negotiating peace sooner instead of later. If that's not happening it can only indicate they really expect those fighting them to get tired of it and give them what they want sooner rather than later as well. Face it, if they fight as long as FAN did, and then get white peace, economically speaking they still would have been better off bringing all the PM nations in and paying reps instead.
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Okay, got some questions. What would you think would be the best terms for an alliance that at the first chance launched nukes? Harsh terms or light terms? What if they were merely following in on a treaty?
I eagerly await your response.
I aint him, but I would pretty much expect any alliance at war to use nukes at the earliest opportunity, so I wouldnt expect it to affect terms at all from that perspective - it's just what you do. However if you do manage to pull off a non-nuclear war, then the damages are obviously less, so from that perspective reps should be less.
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Fail troll is fail.
Props to the guys at IRON that nuked me every day for two war cycles and took the same without whining about it.
And to all Karma allies.
It's being called the Karma war (although more properly called GWIV) because the simple fact is the NPO p***ed off/on just about the entire civilised world over the past year. It terrorised many, many victims, some completely innocent, some less so, but in the end it just made so many enemies that very nearly the entire world spontaneously moved together to bring it down. That isnt something that just happens. That took MANY months of work, poor work but work nonetheless, on behalf on NPO government. 
FCC!
Imperial Decree - New Polar Order
in Alliance Announcements (IC)
Posted
Grub,
I gotta say this "decree" really disappointed me.
You compare Polar's position last year with Pacifica's today, and to do so is to disparage your own alliance, unjustly.
You of course should not need to be reminded that your predecessor was deposed before the shooting even started.
Moo and his IOs still run Pacifica, beyond question or doubt. Need I really say more?
Polaris was an alliance that was once perceived as arrogant and hostile, and not without cause. Your reign has seen it change in many ways, for the better.
The stuff the Pacificans are posting on the other had make it abundantly clear they have made no such changes.
And they have even been offered peace. They can flat out buy it any time they want, without any of the humiliating bend-over-and-hold-your-ankles crap they pulled on others. Moo even stays. What is so bad about this deal for them again? Yes, the price is high, but they are a large and very capable organisation we all know is capable of paying it.
It's been on the table a long time. Had they taken it when first offered, they would be well along on their way to being out of terms already. But you cant blame those offering them terms for their refusal, surely?
Who claimed it WAS "passive defense?" Hmmm? Would that have just been something you pulled out of your tailfeathers right as you were posting, eh?
Passive defense is also known as suicide. Any General that ordered it should be immediately relieved of duty.
At this point you are a wolf whining and blaming the sheep for planning a defense. How dare they?