Mephala

[quote name='ktarthan' timestamp='1342120417' post='3009302'] Given that GOD had 35 out of their top 40 in peace mode at a time when VE was shedding 200K+ NS per day, it really seems the other way around to me. [/quote] GOD is bravely willing to fight to the last drop of their [i]allies'[/i] blood.

Go get them, BN.

[quote name='Methrage' timestamp='1340917862' post='2999592'] The way I see it more is MK gave them some of your tech despite whatever objections you had and Sparta accepted them, if MK didn't tell them they could have that tech they wouldn't of gotten it. Although I'll bow out of the discussion now as you know my views. I don't think the alliance I was allied to for so long and have held in such high regard is someone big on reps, treating other alliances badly because might makes right, etc. Although when you're allied to an alliance who does tend to ask huge reps, its easy for your moral compass to get confused or lost altogether. So I just hope you guys still have it and haven't devolved to the MK/Unjust Path mentality of there being no right or wrong, those with the power to do so can and should abuse those without power, etc. [/quote] Some members of TOP don't respect Sparta. They view it as a whiny, cowardly, and unambitious alliance of opportunists. It's very insulting to have someone you view as a little puke piggy-back on the winning side and demand reparations as if they were some great conqueror. Or so I imagine. I wasn't in TOP for that conflict.

This doesn't mean we're going to have to be neighbors with MK and NG, does it? Ugh, they smell like a chicken farm.

The best thing about this war is that everyone's intentions were broadcast well ahead of time. NPO gave warning, BFF gave warning, and IRON gave LSF warning.

[quote name='Mogar' timestamp='1340600120' post='2995382'] I kinda doubt your side had any intentions of doing that though, and yes, I've been allied to NEW and FEAR, I respect both alliances a great deal, and after having some chats with Chax, he's a pretty nice fellow himself, I would assume most of Europa(besides Bern) are of similar stature. [/quote] My side of the treaty web disagrees with you. There's a reason no one countered Invicta. Everyone on this side of the war fully believed that BFF meant every word they said in their announcement.

Those of you attacking ODN hopefully didn't forget about this: http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=111582

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1340590079' post='2994927'] I don't see the justification that MK needs GOONS to attack CSN. Granted, MK has been well-countered, but NATO is much larger than GOONS and also has no counter. They would also qualify for the defensive part of MK and GOONS' MDoAP. Therefore, if MK needed help, and GOONS wanted to be a good ally, wouldn't they attack NATO or Regnum Invictorum? In agreement with my "kicker" analogy, either GOONS has chosen the easiest war available to them, or MK has selected them for the simplest war knowing how incompetent GOONS are at war. [/quote] Attacking NATO runs the risk of bringing NPO into the conflict against MK and GOONS. Attacking Invictus would bring in BFF as a bloc as they have already threatened to attack together anyone who hits Invictus.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1340588717' post='2994910'] So then, rather than make the qualifier for a respectable war aggressive/defensive, you prefer justified/unjustified? I suppose that does cover more bases. So then, what justifies GOONS' entrance to the war? Clearly, it's been agreed upon, even by MK's posters, that their war on CSN is essentially an aggressive and unjustified war on CSN for their own gain. While GOONS has an oAP with MK, does that really make their entrance to the war justified? I mean, they are not bound one way or the other in this conflict, so with or without the treaty the decision to enter the war is theirs entirely. As Moldavi explained, an alliance has to recognize its sovereign right to declare war on another alliance or not, so GOONS' war on CSN is as optional as Umbrella's attack on Fark. Now, if MK had gotten in over its head with this war and its ally GOONS came to its aid, then they would be protecting their allies' interests, and it could arguably be justifiable. Unfortunately, this is not the case. MK has committed a blatantly aggressive, unjustified war, and have even stated that they will not offer surrender terms to CSN nations. They do not need GOONS, and this is their war. I don't see anything there which justifies GOONS' entrance here, even with the treaty. [/quote] You've answered your own question here. GOONS is part of a bloc and is protecting the interests of that bloc. You're hanging your hat on the idea that MK doesn't NEED GOONS yet, so GOONS is not justified/respectable for coming in. However, MK is fighting a lot of alliances right now. Even though they're very likely to win, help from GOONS will take some heat off of them militarily. MK doesn't want to win a pyrrhic victory. They are playing for the next conflict too.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1340586586' post='2994889'] Excellent! Now we're getting somewhere. Since you have proven (E ∙ R) can be true, I suppose I have to further complicate my premises by adding a condition. How about if a war is easy and aggressive, then it is not respectable? After all, doesn't the "valid CB" argument we see in CN usually, at its core, "was an aggressive act enacted upon the declaring alliance in such a manner as to make the war still defensive?" For example, spying is certainly considered an act of war and thus it is also a valid CB. Therefore, since aggressive action to undermine the sovereignty of IRON, then the war is Easy but not Aggressive? Does that alternation cover the bases, then? Also, Ardus, the logic notations were in parentheses after the full words [/quote] I don't think that covers the bases at all. IRON's war is aggressive. To call LSF the aggressors would be to say that impersonating someone on IRC is an act of aggression. That's a huge stretch. IRON's war is justified and respectable, but it's also aggressive. In the same way, is an alliance that honors its treaty obligations respectable? Arguably, that is what GOONS are doing here, honoring a treaty. Their war is legitimate because it has a legal, treaty basis. Maybe you think that MK's DoW on CSN was not respectable. But let's, for the sake of argument, say that MK had an MDAP with alliance X. MK attacks CSN and, again for the sake of argument, let's say MK is totally unjustified. If MK didn't ask for any input from alliance X and alliance X had no part in the decision to declare war, is alliance X respectable for still honoring their treaty with MK? I think most of us in this game would say yes and we would save our scorn for MK and not alliance X.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1340585553' post='2994878'] My statement is as follows: If a war is Easy, then it is not Respectable (E ⊃ ∼R) Your war is Easy (E) Therefore ∴ it is not Respectable (∼R) (by rule of Modus Ponens) Now, seeing as this is a basic syllogism, there are a few simple but limited options to prove me wrong. You can prove one of two points: 1. It is not necessarily try that if a war is Easy, then it is not Respectable [∼(E⊃∼R)] 2. You war is not Easy (∼E) [/quote] I don't accept your premises. IRON's war against LSF is easy but certainly respectable. Their CB has been near universally accepted as legitimate. It's quite possible for a war to be both easy and respectable.

[quote name='Captain Spock' timestamp='1340544745' post='2994411'] There are some good people at TOP, best of luck to ya. Enjoy the war. [/quote] False. There is not a single good person in TOP.

[quote name='Jaiar' timestamp='1340317911' post='2992177'] War dodge? No. Want me to prove it? I'll fight on my own made up AA tonight and declare wars on MK or MK allies (where I can find a slot or two) with the caveat that when the war is over, I get my own white peace. No reps imposed on me or anything. Nations I'm fighting send or accept peace with me when the war is over and that is it. Archon, Leet, MK Gov, MK allies/coalition...deal? I'm no war deserter, FlogYou. [/quote] So you're willing to fight as long as you get special treatment? Has MK guaranteed any of its other opponents white peace?

[quote name='Rotavele' timestamp='1340283260' post='2991763'] ??? Umm... I never applied for TOP... anyways... o/ NATO [/quote] http://www.orderoftheparadox.net/index.php?/topic/1054-rotaveles-applicacion/ Also, weren't you suppose to be quitting or something?

This whole war is a mess.