Baden-Württemberg

[quote name='scutterbug' date='15 April 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1271330487' post='2261212'] Ramirus believes he is above everybody so won't actually listen or care to acknowledge anybodies complaints. Im trying in our embassy and its like arguing with a brick wall. Personally the accords are dead, Ramirus has crapped all over them with this behaviour. [/quote] He'll receive the bills. I wouldn't be too worried.

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='14 April 2010 - 07:12 PM' timestamp='1271265153' post='2260238'] And regarding our drop in NS: so you clearly think GRE has compromised? [/quote] No, it was a strategical move. You spread your Members among other alliances in order to make us believe that you are weakened. To achieve....mmmh what exactly? Well considering your recent moves on the "negotiation tables", I wouldn't even be surprised if it's true what you are saying...

[quote name='Starfox101' date='14 April 2010 - 02:42 PM' timestamp='1271248926' post='2260024'] That's rich coming from a former MXCA leader. [/quote] huh? I think this is the second time you come up with some old history argument, and the best thing is I don't even get it. "At least TOP is making decisions" Have I not made any decisions during my time in MCXA? Because that's what your ironic statement is implying.... No matter what you could possibly mean with this statement it must be something that is over a year.

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1271242994' post='2259955'] Are we even on the same planet BoB? The same bob where TOP declared a whole new war on a completly uninvolved block endangering all of its allies because of its own paranoia? Guess not eh? [/quote] We weren't happy with the way this whole thing started, they knew that. However, from the first second on they had our promise for assistance, because we knew that they are in a tricky situation. That is why we fought, and that is also why we are accepting the consequences of this war. That said, TOP indeed tried to get us out of this war, however we declined that, and I think, CnG as well. (I am not going into detail, since this is far from the topic of the thread, but if you want to hear the full thing, you can PM or query me) The difference between the two situations is however, that when we posted the DoW, TOP didn't have the chance to get us out of the situation, while Grämlins can get them out of their war pretty easily. By announcing their terms, and inviting IRON and DAWN to peace negotiations.

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1271241316' post='2259940'] Well we don't have any GRE members in our private channels nor war channels. Our newspaper goes to the OWF, so we must be then OWF puppet then We have multiple shared channels with different alliances. We also receive honest answers from GRE as do GRE get honest ones from us, the difference is we do not force our view on them for they are sovereign. We can make a suggestion, it is there choice to use it or not. EDIT: Spelling FAIL [/quote] You missed the point. Of course, we cannot violate TOP's sovereignty and they cannot violate ours. Of course your means of communication might be different from ours. But then again, the bottom line that both of us are close to our treaty partners, cannot be far from reality. That said, TOP wouldn't bring us in such a situation in first place. They know and respect our opinion and wishes. Especially when it comes to drama like this, that is definitely to prevent....

[quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 12:19 PM' timestamp='1271240369' post='2259930'] So what makes us a GRE puppet? as too your claims. [/quote] Well, the puppet discussion was started by scutter, and I think it's a question of definitions. He claimed that we are TOP's puppet. We are close friends to Paradoxia, they have helped us a lot in the past, we have done the same for them. We have a lot of communication with each other, they are in our private channel, we are in their war channel, they receive a weekly issue of our newspaper etc. If that's his definition of being TOP's puppet, then we are TOP's puppet. I know for a fact, that MHA and Grämlins are (or were) very close friends. I am sure you also have shared channels, a lot of communication etc. So according to scutter's definition, I think you won't deny that you are their puppet either. But then again, to the statement quoted, in order to give you a full explanation of what I meant: I am rather TOP's puppet, because I receive honest answers from TOP, and they can expect honesty from us. If we don't like something, they respect that, and try to find a pleasing solutions for all parties if possible. I mean many Members dislike Grämlins actions, yet Grämlins obviously don't give a damn what you think, otherwise they'd have peaced out already. The balls in their cord, the aces in their hands. They can end this. If they had just a little respect for MHA they'd have done that days ago. And that is why I am rather TOP's puppet than Grämlins.

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 12:12 PM' timestamp='1271239942' post='2259925'] Nope not at all, all my points have mentioned IRON not a single bleep about DAWN. So please come back with something more relevant. All you specified in your post was the term us. That to me means you are talking about yourselves, aka DAWN. Which frankly im not interested in a 12 man oppurtunistic alliance who rides into a war without even posting a DoW. [/quote] Since he is asking the question it [b]is [/b]relevant for him. I don't think that you can choose for him what's relevant and what's not. And since it is obviously not relevant for you, you might as well answer.

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1271239021' post='2259911'] It can quite clearly be seen here you started with the cheap shots so please dont try that one. Or need i quote? "And the cancellation on NPO during Karma, and the cancellation on TOP during the last war. I must add though, I can't judge whether they canceled it because there was no friendship left(I'd respect that), or whether they canceled it because they were opportunistic. Although some of the posts of their actions and posts make me believe it's the second one." Something you clearly have no clue about regarding MHA/TOP due to the fact you aint even a member of either. Dont blame me when i respond in kind. As for being a gramlin puppet, doubtful at best. Think the sheer amount of dislike some of us in MHA are showing over this makes it very clear we are far from being puppets. Even told Ram personally would it not be for my loyalty to MHA i would personally declare on him now and help IRON. [/quote] So what makes us a TOP puppet? (I mean, according your argumentation, you aren't even allowed to make such a claim, which is basically why I am asking) You try to claim the morale highground by saying that I cannot judge MHA's actions and their treaty cancellations because I am not in MHA, yet you make claims about TSO? That's hypocrisy, Mr. Government Adviser. That said, you completely ignore the points where I say that I indeed don't know MHA's internal workings, and that I can only judge from what I see on these Forums. I am not saying I am Sam the master who knows everything and MHA is opportunistic, I am saying I am Sam the observer, and MHA might look opportunistic to some (including me) because of actions A, B and C (we don't need to point them out again), unless they prove me wrong. Frankly, I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong, by you. Although it's a childish discussion, since our definition of "poor shot" might differ, but no, I simply think that you are upset because you know you are wrong. Of course an eagerly aggressive style of posting will make you look right.

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1271238048' post='2259900'] I believe you can see posts by me here stating that IRON have told us they will not be bringing any help into this because they have no wish for things to escalate. Our position is fairly clear, just a shame you couldnt interpret that eh? Due to IRON wishing to do their thing and have fun smashing Ramlins (Go IRON), we have no desire nor any requirement to come in. Like the good Major says we are observing. Edit: In response to the above i think it was quite clear to see there was no love lost between Us and TOP. So it really was a "we no longer like you" thing. But then a puppet of TOP will always think otherwise. [/quote] With your cheap shots against me, you aren't going to impress anyone. That said, I haven't even said it's a fact, or MHA IS ALL EBIL. I have simply said there are these two possibilities, and there are indications that you are opportunistic, or at least the claim that you might be, is not absurd. Also, better a puppet of TOP than a puppet of Grämlins.

[quote name='Methrage' date='14 April 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1271237628' post='2259893'] Surely MHA can see why they would be viewed as opportunistic if they hold onto the treaty with the intention of only honoring it if someone they don't like hits Gremlins, or their decision to help or not could be viewed as based on which side is winning. For example if an alliance previously under no-entry terms for the last war declared with apparently little support MHA would be more likely to help than if a large coalition capable of rolling MHA along with Gremlins were to declare. The sooner MHA makes their position clear the better I think. [/quote] And the cancellation on NPO during Karma, and the cancellation on TOP during the last war. I must add though, I can't judge whether they canceled it because there was no friendship left(I'd respect that), or whether they canceled it because they were opportunistic. Although some of the posts of their actions and posts make me believe it's the second one.

What shilo said. Not the announcement I hoped for, but it's MHA, what can we expect?

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1271236215' post='2259879'] Oh another one who thinks he knows whats going on behind the closed doors of MHA eh?[/quote] No, Mr. Government Advisor. I am not, and have said that multiple times, knowing what MHA does behind the scenes. I am judging your alliance by the representatives on these Forums. And the two points I have raised above are the conclusions. And apparently I am not alone with these. [quote] Like anybody with any grasp of common sense can say, decisions take time to come to and time to act upon. [/quote] You are right, I lack common sense. How could I expect that an official Declaration of Support / Declaration of Neutrality / or treaty cancellation takes less than a week... I know it's an eternal treaty, but that's (and you'll agree with me on that) your very own problem. You signed it. Now if you want to cancel the treaty you have three possibilities: 1. You disband and reform the MHA, and then re-sign all other treaties. It's a poor political stunt but it has flair, my personal favorite. 2. You contact Grämlins and ask them for a mutual agreement to cancel the treaty. If both parties consider a treaty void in a binding agreement it pretty much can get dumped. 3. You consider the treaty void, because Grämlins have violated it. [quote] Just because you see nothing in public does not mean something has not been started in private. Speculate as you wish but to start spouting rubbish thinking you know what goes on behind our alliance better than those of us actually in it is absurd.[/quote] Well, I am a big fan of private channels myself, but as long as you won't give clear answers, I am not going to stop speculating. Of course, if MHA finally finds some balls and gets this business done, I'll be the first one with flowers and congratulations. My opinion about MHA stands, thanks to this drama, thanks to the recent war, and thanks to the Karma war. I don't see how that is absurd. [quote] As for being oppurtunistic w/e. We peaced out with IRON did we not? Think its Ramlins being the oppurtunistic ones keeping them in an eternal war. But i guess people fail to grasp that one still. [/quote] gRAMlins being opportunistic excludes MHA being opportunistic? That's interesting.

[quote name='scutterbug' date='14 April 2010 - 09:58 AM' timestamp='1271231905' post='2259855'] Coming from the man whos decisions saw TOP go down in flames, thats rich to say the least. [/quote] Well, at least TOP's making decisions. [quote name='nutkase' date='14 April 2010 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1271232541' post='2259859'] TOP looking at re-entering given your question? When you answer that with a yes or no, I will answer yours. [/quote] I am not government of my alliance, but I certainly could imagine fighting for IRON and DAWN as soon as we are done paying the reps and are in range again. However if gRAMlins continue dropping nations then they'll be down before we have sent the first unit to CnG.... The answers of several MHA Members in this thread prove that you are nothing but opportunistic. It also proves that you are incapable of making your own decisions. MHA is an alliance I want to be in. (/sarcasm)

[quote name='masterbake' date='14 April 2010 - 06:52 AM' timestamp='1271220747' post='2259728'] I am not government but I think my feelings are pretty clear on which way I'd like our FA to go. [/quote] The question was asked by 6 (or 7) people in this thread, if it were clear, they wouldn't have asked it.

[quote name='SynthFG' date='14 April 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1271196997' post='2259202'] Trust me I have nothing but contempt for your scum sucking little alliance and what you tried to pull You saw us entangled with IRON, OG and Zenith and thought you could help yourselves, and then attempted to do so without even an informal hello, yet alone a DoW, ok so FH were a little late but you guys never bothered at all Your alliance is beneath my contempt and its a huge pity that the current clusterfrack is allowing you to get away scot free [/quote] You are a Member of MK now, yet you talk like you were still in Grämlins. Why did you leave in first place? Because you can't take the heat? I don't get your post. DAWN is a small alliance. How can they help themselves by hitting Grämlins? What do they gain? Tech? Land? In a nuclear war with Grämlins? No, they joined the war, because IRON was in need, there is no evil motive, and there is no way, you can make them look bad. That said, they don't need to post a DoW. I'd post one, but I also have treaties when I go to war. You didn't have treaties when you entered the war. You claim, you have friendships, and it's your sovereign right to defend your friends. It's their sovereign right to go to war without posting a DoW. That doesn't make them scum.

[quote name='scutterbug' date='13 April 2010 - 11:40 PM' timestamp='1271194789' post='2259149'] Cross that bridge when we come to it. But IRON so far have been pretty clear to us they wont be esclating this as such Ramlins can reap what they sow. [/quote] If you really disapproved of their actions, you could make clear, that you won't support this conflict, no matter who enters. Not that it matters though. I don't think anyone who would want to get involved would back off because of MHA...

[quote name='The AUT' date='13 April 2010 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1271193388' post='2259111'] I think it's funny those who think MHA is "honorable" and will "do the right thing". These guys don't care. They'll back up Gremlins simply because they know Gremlins will back them up. The only way to stop this nonsense is through direct military intervention. I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue saved for the fact those who would actually go to war for IRON are under terms not to do so. This talk of economic embargoes and wagging your finger isn't going to do anything. If you want Gremlins to back down, go through them and if MHA wants to as well then go through them as well. Enough of the nonsense. One side is refusing to compromise, all this debating isn't going to get us anywhere in the scheme of things. [/quote] If they keep losing Members at this pace, world will look different in 10 days If I were IRON, I'd present them my terms quickly, before there is no tech left....

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='13 April 2010 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1271110509' post='2257790'] New ideas and paradigms are unwelcome in the cyberverse? [/quote] Well, this "new idea" is a problem for most people in this thread because [list][*]it takes the sovereignty of DAWN and IRON[*]no one understands why a "Let's hide our intentions" strategy in surrender talks is necessary[*]the chance is great that you will extort both alliances[*]you have threatened with eternal war (or at least mentioned it) which is blackmailing.[/list]You cannot deny that gRAMlins lose a lot of credibility, due to this drama. Now, why do you think it's worth losing that much credibility for not telling two alliances what they can expect when they surrender? Because you are Grämlins your ego is boosted and you are proud to be different than the rest of the world? I don't buy that. I have been away the past few weeks, so I haven't seen a whole lot of the surrender talks between us and CnG, however I know that after some weeks of discussions (with open cards) we came to a solution that suited both, and a fair solution I must say. Grämlins attacked without a treaty obligation, which is your sovereign right, your CB was to defend your friends. I respect that, I think there is no better CB, no matter whether you fight defensive or aggressive wars. However, as soon as your friends declare peace, your CB expires, and that's exactly what happened. Instead of trying to find a reasonable solution for all involved parties (this is how Grämlins worked) you try your "new strategy" in order to get an improved position on the negotiation table. On one hand side you argue, that they can rebuy their military, so that in fact, it's not as bad as everyone thinks, and on the other hand side you say that it'll give you an improved position. But this doesn't make sense, since you can only have an advantage when their side has a disadvantage, and you advantage is only as big as their disadvantage. If you are interested in fair terms you play with open cards. It makes no sense hiding your intentions, since you search a solution that is mutually acceptable. Hiding the terms and your intentions obviously creates distrust, because the assumption, that the terms aren't acceptable for both parties isn't far from real. I know Grämlins signed a document after the Polar - War, that they'd never pay reparations in a defensive war. It's up for discussion whether the war was offensive or defensive when you started it, but at the moment, it's definitely an aggressive war against IRON / DAWN, because your CB expired, and because you were given the chance to peace out, and request fair terms. You currently, according your own DoW, have no justification for this war. Why have your standards changed? Why do you suddenly want reps for an aggressive war?

[quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1271102775' post='2257610'] You, sir, are probably the sharpest of the detractors! What a great point. [/quote] Yeah, in this thread I have made about 8 arguments. What you are doing is following: You are singling one argument out, and then take one sentence, an assumption after the conclusion, and try to argue it. Yet you skipped the other points. This is very smart. But back to the sentence. Yes, it might look a little stupid now, but we'll see what happens and talk again in 6 months, maybe a year. [quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1271103888' post='2257636'] So your contention is that once you have dismissed military that you are permanently helpless? It is amazing then, to me, that when people are hit by nukes which destroy most of their soldiers and planes that they can ever recover to continue fighting! [/quote] If they can recover that quick, and continue to fight, why do you ask them to disarm their military in first place? I mean, you claim that it gives you a better position on the negotiation table. But if they can rebuy all their military quickly, this point is moot. And why don't you reveal your terms of surrender, why do you keep them in the dark? Because they are just? HAHA! [quote name='Matthew PK' date='12 April 2010 - 10:33 PM' timestamp='1271104392' post='2257646'] I would love that, it would change the bargaining table quite a bit wouldn't it... [/quote] In 4 years (?) of Cybernations that wasn't needed. Why do Grämlins need it now? When it comes to negotiations you are in a perfect position, unless you want to give them some idiotic terms, then again, of course you need a better position. You aren't fooling anyone here. [quote name='Crymson' date='12 April 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1271105388' post='2257671'] I think you've reached that level already. [/quote] Agreed.

[quote name='Bob Janova' date='12 April 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1271101217' post='2257582'] Sam, I hope Grämlins is not forgotten, we did lots of worthwhile things. But I hope that you are right about the 2010 edition. I wouldn't want the history of the real Grämlins to be obscured by this. [/quote] I agree Bob. I was talking about the "new" gRAMlins. The old "edition", with the old faces, won't be forgotten easily, since they fill many impressive pages in all of the history books till the Karma war.

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 07:41 PM' timestamp='1271094091' post='2257478'] GRE's attack on IRON was made clearly in defence of MK When the sides were uncertain and victory less so, hardly defines BW DAWN hit us after OG and Zenith countered Gre, at a point where Gre's position looked so precarious that IRON/OG/Zenith were offering terms and DAWN didn't even have the courtesy to inform us as to why the first time I saw a DAWN representative was the initial peace talk meeting Anyway in case you have been living under a rock I resigned from Gre Gov a few days ago and am leaving the alliance [/quote] This delivers. Just take a look in the DOW of TSO. That was like on day 3 of the war. According to the posts in there, of Members of MK, the war was already won by them. And we both knew that we will have almost no chance winning this thing. They knew it, we knew it, and if Grämlins kept just 1% of their organization they had a few years back, Grämlins knew it as well. So when you entered the war, you knew, that the chance for victory is great, and when DAWN entered, they knew, it's in the time of greatest need, and that they are probably going to lose. That you haven't seen a DAWN representative, doesn't change anything. I assume, as IRON's partner, they'd have accepted what IRON would have accepted (no matter whether surrender agreement or something else) because they have no desire to be always in the very first row. Now, you can call me ignorant, but I doubt that most of this planet has noticed that you resigned from gRAMlins government. It's, honestly, not that big of an event, and people who haven't realized that, certainly don't live under a rock. While I applaud your decision to leave them, I want to add that you are the best example for my theory, that the alliance will fall. Grämlins used to be famous for their just and reasonable behaviour, and most of the Members they received in the past years, joined because of this recognition. Of course all these Members resign now, because they love applause and hate criticism.

[quote name='SynthFG' date='12 April 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1271093151' post='2257461'] The real pity here is that it's distracting from what a detestable bunch DAWN are, IRON are beaten and well beaten at that, DAWN deserve nothing but the contempt and pain due to failed bandwaggoners [/quote] Yes. DAWN deserve nothing but death and destruction for fighting for their friends, against odds, and against a huge and much stronger enemy. For me, bandwaggoners are oppertunistic. They use an excuse for entering a war, with many other people, and usually they know it's already won. If you look back, history will prove me right. Bandwaggoners were always on the winning side of the web. And according to that definition, the term bandwaggoner applies to Grämlins and not to DAWN. DAWN deserve nothing but respect, they have proven to be a loyal friend, and a good partner in war. You can fight them eternally, but trying to make them look like evil opportunistic bandwaggoners and spin the reality will not work for you. Aimmée Man, I think he is ironic....

touché, LB And well, if they had policies, these policies would take them out of their little world back to reality.

[quote name='Titus Pullo' date='12 April 2010 - 07:03 PM' timestamp='1271091780' post='2257439'] I'm sorry, IRC is not an acceptable form of communication. Should you have any inquiries about membership, the organization itself, or our policies, you'll need to come visit our forums. [/quote] We don't have written policies... But that doesn't mean we don't have them!

[quote name='Mad Mike' date='12 April 2010 - 06:55 AM' timestamp='1271048128' post='2257103'] maybe if IRON or DAWN actually came to the gremlins forums and asked the questions that Lord Brendan has they would get the answers they desire. [/quote] You are presenting a completely new era of gRAMlin arrogance. What is the difference between Forums and IRC, based on the matter? Why do you want them, to come to YOUR Forums instead of talking to them on IRC? Because you need years to invent these smart $@! answers to escape their questions? That said, Matt Miller completely destroyed this point. [quote] It amazes me that the only person whom even comes to our forums and ask us questions is not even involved. The embassies for IRON have not even been used in over three months on the gremlins forums, the last time anyone posted in the IRON embassy was December 26th 2009. And DAWN does not even have an embassy that i can find on the Gremlins forums. This really shows and showed a lot of initiative to incite peace in this conflict.[/quote] I think no one, not even your own leadership refuses to accept the fact, that IRON and DAWN have made enough peace approaches. Don't try to claim that they have never asked for peace. They asked for peace a billion times, but you don't want peace. You want them to kiss your feet, and unconditionally surrender, I think your leaders have made that clear. Read the OP, and read (again) Matt Miller. [quote] AS for "unconditional surrender" nobody ever said "hand me your keys," it is basically just another term for what is already been done and is being done currently. Just being called a different name and all hell breaks loose from assumptions and innuendos.[/quote] The problem is, that you don't say what you want. You want them to buy a surprise box. You want them to surrender without knowing the terms. That is a [b]huge[/b] difference. Because if your terms were awesome and light, or at least "acceptable", you could make them public. That you refuse to reveal these terms, shows, that they aren't acceptable. You don't buy a something before looking at it first, and see if it's worth the money. Pretty simple. [quote] As far as gremlins graph. O-no we are loosing pixels from small to smaller more inactive nations fighting 3 vs 1 against nations that were previously over 50K NS. So of course we will be loosing pixels, but even if they all fight for the alliance to ZI, they will and would be rebuilt bigger and better than they were before and faster. The Gramlins National Bank is ready and willing to rebuild every nation that lost even one pixel for the alliance. Our coffers are limitless, unless that is Iron decides to remove people from peace mode that have been there for over 60 days and have a war chest the size of my daily income, just to try and attack our banks, but that would be suicide for them so i do not see that happening, even though they are finally doing some spying on our larger nations. I hope that means something. Even though we have all your nations intell from start of war to present.[/quote] You can save your propaganda for the Grämlins Forums. Keep believing that. I remember Grämlins having 116 nations before the Karma war. Last I checked you had 68 nations. That means, you lost almost 50% of your nations and some very prominent heads. (Syzygy, Bob Janova....) On these Forums, Grämlins was seen as a fair and just alliance, and that is gone now. I think SpacingOutMan is right. You will never recover from that, because people in Grämlins will not be able to adopt to this new situation. More Members will leave and in a few years, you'll be forgotten. [quote] I hope my wall of text gets communications open and people realize Gremlins are not bad people, until you get them wet, feed them after midnight, or subdue them to bright lights. How about we all go and watch a movie together? O and how do i join the Ramerious hate group that seems to be forming, and what is your irc? [/quote] I think the lines of communication are open on IRON's and DAWN's end. You guys, only have to pick up the damn phone and stop being unreasonable. It's that easy.