Thistledown

I don't know that anyone ever thinks something like that is right. In case you missed it, though, the NPO was keeping FAN in eternal war, and their war would never have ended if it hadn't been stopped by Karma. NPO would have used it as a CB, but they were already at war. As far as right and wrong go, I'm not sure that quite matters here. I don't think Athens cares whether it is morally correct, but rather whether it's a threat to them. They were fine with the AA op because it didn't affect them, they're obviously not okay with it when it's directed at them.

Yes, you're right. And FAN would never have gotten peace if those alliance's friends were not forced to give up their war during Karma. No one really cares if it happens, they care if it happens to them or their allies. What you are seeing is why your plea for peace will not work. TPF thinks they were justified for starting ZH in a war. Athens thinks they are justified in attacking TPF for doing so. So your ideal both sides saying they were wrong simply won't work, because neither side believes they are. Sorry if that puts Zenith in a bad spot, but there it is.

No, I believe he was saying that if you joined in with the people you were obligated to defend, you would be outnumbered. I'm not quite sure how you saw what you saw.

How many wars do you know of that have ended in two days? Why on Bob would you think that 2 days of war is just comeuppance for attempting to completely destroy a community?

Well, they did cancel all their treaties with NPO. And I'm pretty sure an NPO character confirmed that they were running away elsewhere. And if it takes two days to declare war, it would seem they are waiting on something, or rather someone. They're obviously not willing to go to war as things are, while their ally burns.

Oh, they all did. Eventually. After trying not to. So, what you're saying is, if TPF's allies actually never show up to fight, they're worse than cowards? What does that make them then?

Sure, it may have seemed like the war might never end- but they should have waited until they knew before actually starting ops. Planning is all good and well, but ZH should never have gotten started. You say that Athens can take preventive steps to make sure that no further crimes are committed against them- I would say that this war is the best way of doing it. The initiative to make sure that nothing is happening should not land on Athens, but on TPF, who committed the crimes. And no, this plan is different from a simple [OOC]in-game[/OOC] spy operation. Everyone can see a demasked spy operation and it is a one-time event. If people try more spy ops against you, you know about them and have a pretty good idea who it was. Athens has no idea if more ops were conducted against them. And the acts of war during a war were not dedicated to winning the current war, or if they were TPF jumped the gun completely. And if they did, the burden to prove that is on them, not Athens. And Athens and TPF have historically been on different sides of things, so it would make sense that TPF would be a threat to Athens.

But you see, they weren't just hostile acts like launching a nuke or ordering a naval attack. They were long term plans to destroy past enemies months down the road. You can say that this was begun because there was a threat of eternal war. However, this "eternal war" would be quite a bit different than others we've seen. Vox and FAN's spying tactics were defended because there was literally no way out, and they were told they would never see peace. TPF was given terms, which were managable, and was in negotiations. This plan was launched- not just thought up, but launched- when TPF had a way out. There was no reason to begin a long term plan when their fate was not assured. No, we don't know if TPF would have given up the plans if they had more time- which is the danger of these schemes. And, considering that this plan was only found out six months later, how is Athens to know about other possible schemes? There's no way Athens has of knowing. Once you begin secret plans like this, you become a threat because no one knows if you have active plots.

See, here's what I don't understand. People seem to think that war is about guilt, like it's some sort of world court- which might explain the e-lawyering. But the fact is, war is typically about a threat that you are trying to neutralize. Spying is a CB not because it's "wrong" but because it harms an alliance's ability to speak freely, and can lead to incriminating evidence. This war's CB is valid because TPF created plans to destroy Athens and RoK but never gave up on them, instead letting ZH be the ones to end it. Thus, Athens and RoK see TPF as a threat who has tried to destroy them in the past through secretive methods and may do so again. Is ZH just as guilty of the original crime? Sure, but they're not a threat. They've severed ties with TPF and are now close to Athens. There may be reason to believe that they'll spy again, but not against Athens. So why would Athens declare war against them? No, see, this is more like the burglar breaks a window to get inside, but then gets cold feet. Sure, nothing was stolen, but you don't feel safe any more. And the second paragraph would explain why this war is against TPF- the members who did not call off the plan- and not ZH- the members who did call off the plan.

Even if it's global war it should be the Hard Six War, though Kwanzaa War is nice too. No Karma 2.0 unless NPO gets involved.

Well, Athens never signed that in case you missed it. Meaning they didn't condone or acknowledge the surrender, if you want to go all e-lawyer, which it seems you do. But let's ignore that. I really can't say it better than Doitzel, but. If the baby dies during childbirth, it would be a failed childbirth. And the birth of a plan is when it's thought up. Unless it got clogged up somewhere in mhawk's brain, that's really not working. This is an argument I don't understand. People seem to be saying, "this plan was started during the Karma War, TPF lost in the Karma War, they've paid." But the Karma War was fought for a wide variety of Hegemony transgressions, leading up to mhawk and co. attacking OV. Even if it was formed during Karma, a plan to destroy an alliance you're not at war with (to e-lawyers: no war declared, no war exists) months in the future seems to be retribution, not an attempt to destroy aggressors. Which would make it a seperate incident, and not atoned for.

I'm sorry, I don't get it. You're saying that because your plan failed, which you did actually start, not because you stopped it but because ZH got cold feet, this is not a valid CB. This was an active attempt to destroy Athens, when you were not at war with Athens (and if you say you were because they attacked your MDAP partner, you never peaced out), when the only thing threatening your alliance was your own pride. They justifiably went to war, because they saw that you were trying to kill them. They decided that the best way to neutralize a force seemingly dedicated to destroying themselves and their allies was to declare on you. That's a CB. They didn't just say they didn't like Athens, they didn't just say they would like Athens destroyed, they actually started a plan to destroy Athens, which as far as I can tell only ended because ZH backed out. That's different from, I don't like NPO, or I'm going to create a power bloc which can balance out Q. It was an active attempt to destroy Athens.

But you see, it wasn't just a plot. It was set into action, but ZH didn't go through with it. There is not proof that TPF didn't create it. I will say this- there are numerous logs from numerous alliances which implicate TPF, and there are several statements from ZH, who had everything to lose and little to nothing to gain, to say that TPF was doing this. This is rather convincing proof, and as I have said about as much as you could ask for. Your statements are simply, "no, it didn't happen." It is odd that the person clamoring for evidence has not a shred of it on their own side.

The Hard Six War. Really now.

Sigh. Zero Hour was created by TPF. Zero Hour was created to destroy Athens in the long term. Thus, by the transitive property, TPF attempted to destroy Athens in the long term. Entiende?

Really now. Several alliances have believed this based on personal stories and the logs. "Oh, well they lied and faked logs!" You can say this about any war, any logs, any time. You cannot ask for more proof, unless there is a confession from TPF. You have as much evidence as could possibly be given by Athens and SF.

There is a funny little thing called "peace mode." Once negotiations begin, that's where TPF nations would begin going. Which would mean TPF wouldn't have to do anything.

It doesn't have to be every day, just Christmas. And Easter. And Good Friday, and Ash Wednesday, and the Feast of the Immaculate Conception.

It makes me sad that there is no mention of the NPO having 666 members on Christmas Eve.

That's not true. His allies recognize it as a threat too. Hence pezstar saying it might go to war. And really, Ivan, I can't help but believe that you really don't think it wasn't a threat. You're not an idiot. You know how threat making works. You don't have to say something explicitly to threaten it.

Not actually being able to declare a war does not mean that it can't be threatened. Which is what we are saying happened.

Oh goodness. A time limit for his purposes? Really? And if they did not have an apology by update (a time chosen not because that's when DoWs are made, but because it's a really convenient time in... Hawaii), NSO would just be very very sad? Maybe give DF stern talking to? No. Giving a time limit for an apology, at a time when when DoWs are made, has an obvious meaning. Particularly when pezstar, who from the logs was talking to someone in NSO who knew these talks were happening, certainly seemed to think war was coming. And really, I don't think NSO are idiots. They know full well what was implied, and they know that in politics, it's not what you say, it's what you mean.

It's funny how you keep calling others idiots for saying that, even when there are several logs which insinuate strongly or plainly state that NSO had threatened war.

"We want peace" is hardly a reassurance that there will be peace (See: NPO-OV talks). It can certainly be issued after an ultimatum ("We will go to war if you don't issue an apology. I'd hate to see it come to that. We really want peace.") And I was just mentioning that saying that SCM saying that Corinan made this a mess=/=him denying that he didn't post that OWF thread and you didn't ask for proof. Not sure how you got there.

I would say that he's referencing the fact that Doppel apparently made an ultimatum to Dark Fist, which would have made this a, you know, mess.