Executive Minister

Okay, on that Cent and Voodoo. Voodoo, what exactly is long ranged in this case? I thought F-7's were fighters? Are you launching 8 ER-M-51's from each jet? 1,500 km again? I'm going to respond to your attack assuming that it is, but I really must ask how 8 missiles per jet is possible while I do that.

I um. What attack exactly? This is the only one i've seen in the Assassination thread, unless there's something i'm overlooking?

I'm not saying I will not seek peace with this war. If the war carries out with less than total destruction against me, then it does so. What I alluded to in the snippet Triyun quoted (cmon, there were much better things to quote in that wall 'o text, by the way) was that I would not seek to work out a purely OOC plea bargain like the one Cent did during the Hello Nod war. Whatever happens IC, happens IC - I won't quit, or reroll. I already stated what I meant by tagging the war as setting an example. I want to show everyone that you don't need to reroll or feel helpless once the bandwagon rolls over your foot. Once initial arguments have been settled and the war progresses, I will be able to show that. I just won't be responding to OOC requests to make me make the war go a certain way unless its by neutral GM or moderator order. That's what I meant. I haven't alluded to myself rerolling and attacking Triyun again and again. In fact, I've done quite the contrary, denouncing any intent or desire to interact with him as possible and continuing my present OOC decision regardless of the status of Aeon, Nod, or East Africa. As for what Shammy said, he's right. I won't try to lay blame on anyone, I just won't accept all the fault for it. It's personal and on purpose ladies and gents.

No intelligence. Not craft. Attack. Google it. Autoadvance. Tortoises rule. Okay, now that my Triyun-esque response is over I can respond normally. I assume this is what you mean. For the damage, Tanis said your side had no intelligence as to where my sensitive/mobile facilities were located. I lumped damages against stationary things like bridges, runways, hangars and other infrastructure together with your other allies. As for my response craft, being 100% undetectable, you misunderstand me. While indeed my aircraft would be extremely stealthy, and fired with as little emissions as possible by using allied sensors, I was referencing the missiles and the guidance they used as being undetectable. The Tu-160, while having some RCS reduction techniques present in its construction - is in no way a stealth aircraft. Your bombers flew across the Red Sea into Sudan. As they approached land, they fired their missiles. Your aircraft would be receiving warnings on their radar warning receivers even before they crossed the Red Sea. The missiles I launched used those pings from my ground radar to either fly to your bombers via inertial navigation (the Tu-160's are at coordinates xyz travelling at whatever speed per hour - fly there) OR they simply flew after the reflections your bombers created as they got pinged, which is semi-active radar seeking. They then switched to EO/IR terminal seeking (image, heat seeking). When I say that this attack would be impossible to detect, i mean to say that your bombers would have no other indication something was flying to crash into them and blow up besides the pings they already noticed before they crossed the Red Sea. My aircraft made no emissions your bombers could detect - they used the existing emissions your bombers detected and had to cope with in order to cross the Red Sea. Also, cheese is made by taking milk and separating it into solid curds and liquid whey. You have to sour the milk to do this. Souring can be done by adding acids like vinegar, or using bacteria. They then drain the water, and can also heat it in the case of hard cheeses. You then preserve cheese with salt, and apply a number of techniques to the cheese depending on what you want. These can be things like stretching the cheese, washing it to make it mild, mix it or dehydrate it. Once that's done, you shape the curds into a mold or form, adding pressure to drive out moisture. You then leave the cheese to age for days to years. This may or may not include the introduction of more microscopic organisms depending on the cheese you want. See you in three weeks.

Tianxian Invasion of Somalia and Seychelles Using a mix of the OTH-B radars stationed at COMbined FORces Command (COMFOR) bases at Jimma and Dadaab, as well as the repurposed Nodic DEW site stationed at Dire Dawa to establish an initial air coverage over Outer Haven, and relying on the 4th, 14th and 20th Rocket Forces and Artillery Divisions already stationed at the border with the threatened nation, as well as numerous Airborne Early Warning, Control & Response (AEWC&R) crafts patrolling Eastern Aeon, the 26th through 31st Mechanized Infantry, supported by the 8th through 15th Armored Infantry Divisions would began a quick push east to Somalia. While the fast landing craft were not detected just yet, the Aeon infantry would begin the long march to both Mogadishu and Bosaso. It was imperative that Somalia did not fall into enemy hands - while the Aeon did not know it yet, forces at play had already, or were immediately infilitrating Somalia as the forces rolled in, under the cover of a squadron of AEWC&R scrambled from Adahunat Airbase, as well as three A-1 Krieg Fast Close Air Support craft squadrons following and eventually overtaking them at speeds of Mach 3. Several airborne refueling aircraft would also be deployed from the hardened location. Fighter squadrons patrolling the East would be placed on standby, ready to move east if the enemy presented an airborne threat. With the fall of Arctica, a quick response force would be deployed in the form of several flights of the Ultra-heavy Bestower strategic transport and Indefatiguable-class Strategic Air Assault Transport. The 9th through 11th HALO/HAHO Paratroop divisions would be deployed to Madagascar while the 12th and 13th would fly towards Victoria and Praslin islands of Seychelles. With the Madagascar deployments would be initial elements of the 23rd RF&A division. Combat engineering teams would be dispatched from the paratroops to begin construction of a ROTHR position at Madagascar to make up for the loss of the Arctican command. Athenian/Hispanic Counter-Attack in North Eastern Africa Protectorate forces found in the Eastern portions of the Libyan/Algerian zone would be tapped as a stopgap measure aimed at halting the Athenian and Hispanic counter invasion from Western Egypt. Resources from the push from the south of Egypt would be rerouted to the new hotzone, while additional forces from the homeland would be called in as replacements. To this end, the 13th and 14th Heavy Tank Divisions stationed at the Murzuq, Awbari and Sabha triangle along with units of the 15th Rocket Forces and Artillery Division would move to meet the invaders head on. Fate would have them eventually pushing East to Hun and Waddan. The 26th through 28th Mechanized Infantry and the 10th and 12th Air Assault Divisions making up the protectorate forces of Libya would rally from the Northern proctorate cities of Garyan, Bani Waleed and Mizdah, moving south east with elements of the 10th Rocket Forces and Artillery Division to create a Forward Operating Base at Al Qaddahiya, west of Sirte. Forward drone and airborne reconaissance would be sent at Corps level, with Black Mambas and drones concentrating their efforts on Sirte for the time being. Five squadrons of a mix of Cormorant and Recluse bombers would be flown in from Tamenrasset to assist at a stand off level once a threat assessment was made. Rapid response and force reconaissance provided by the Mechanized divisions would move to create a sensor picket facing eastwards, prefacing the movement of heavier forces to the region. From COMFOR- bases El Obeid and Nyala, several divisions belonging to the Armored Infantry would be prepared for an airborne and LAPES parachute deployment over Fada, Faya-Largeau Airbase. Aiming to place themselves in the valley south east of Emi Koussi, they would be backed by the deployment of several Bestower Ultra Heavy Transports bearing the brunt of a Rocket Forces and Artillery detachment. Aimed to hold the narrow pass between mountains that the Athenian push towards central Africa would need to cross, these divisions would hopefully hold the line long enough for the 34th and 35th Heavy Tank Divisions making their way slowly from Sudan. The hasty deployment would be prefaced by an airborne drop of the 14th HALO/HAHO Paradrop Divisions, which would perform the initial preparation duties and force reconnaissance with the 17th Air Assault Division. Invasion of Mauritania If the Athenians and Hispanics flew from the Athenian conclave in North Africa, they would be met with the stationary and mobile surface to air defenses of the multinational protectorate forces in the region. If they sailed, however, an entirely different story would emerge all together. With the 1st and 2nd Fleets of the Aviatrice within striking distance of Dakar off the coast of Guinea Bisseau, landing crafts would be attacked by both carrier battlegroup's complements of Cormorant and AN-1 Krieg strike crafts. The air superiority complements onboard along with the AEWC&R craft on stage performing patrols would move to establish air dominance over the contested ports. Four squadrons of AN-1 would fly in at speeds approaching Mach 3, launching the Eviscerator Air Launched Anti-ship Ballistic Missile (AL-AshBM) from 400 km out. A total of 144 of these potent missiles would fly in at both top down and depressed ballistic trajectories in a bid to maximize the number of attack vectors defenders would need to cover. Flying inwards like supersonic dive bombers, the crafts would launch a total of 144 Punisher TAMs. Cormorant maritime strike bombers would linger back amongst allied shipping and behind airborne patrols to launch standoff attacks coinciding with the daring strikes made by the Kriegs. The squadron of Cormorants would be in the air, each armed with four Trident Air-launched multi-purpose ballistic missiles (ALM-BM) and other stand-off munitions. Starting the staggered and co-ordinated attacks, each Cormorant would release a total of five Providence StrateGic Assault Missiles (GAM) from internal rotary bays. These missiles would fly in from distances of 3,000 km using inertial navigation, only making their stealthy frames known once they switched to active radar homing and focal plane electro-optical detection. Each missile would separate into two independent payloads, doubling the kill potential of the first stealthy strike. From each aircraft, a total of four Tridents would be fired from roughly 2,000 km out. Fired from underslung, purposefully sheathed disposable pylons, each of the 48 missiles would contain five 200 kg multiple independently-targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRV) targeted for either the enemy shipping in the vicinity of Dakar and Noukachott, or the transport crafts already at port. Each warhead would use a mix of fuzed sensors, to reduce the chances of enemy counter measures being employed successfully. With the MIRVs being designed with the evasion of enemy anti-ballistic missile defense capability in mind, each warhead would sail down towards its target, their single piece, multi-layered heat ablative construction would serve to disperse the energies of enemy laser-based defenses like no missile ever was ever thought possible. A total of 240 of these submunitions would eventually rain down on their collective targets. Of course, these attacks were hypothetical. Any attempt at sailing to Dakar and Nouchott would need to survive the Aeon submarine forces covering the approach from the opening of the Straight of Gibraltar to the mid atlantic. These submarines, organized in hunter killer packs in the form of SSN and SSGN units patrolling closest to the Western Saharan protectorate waters would listen to the acoustic signatures of enemy shipping as they made their way down towards Noukachott. In the case of the forces arriving from Cape Verde, a similar presence would be felt. Subs from H&K groups Alpha, Beta and Gamma would provide attacks with the Heavy-sub launched AshM from a range of 290 km using fire and forget modes (active radar and EO/IR). Such attacks would occur with the vessels completely submerged, and each vessel would have its anti-torpedo/de-mining ROV units out in an attempt to preserve their hosts from retaliatory strikes. Farther back, SSBN and SSBGN units would provide a stand-off anti-ship ballistic missile attack once air elements and AEWC&R craft had positively identified the targets. Launching in coordination with the air attacks, the Hades SLBM launched for anti-ship duties would be fired. With targeting data provided by allied uplink, these strikes would further hamper and destroy enemy vessels as they contended with the ordinance already being fired, as well a number being directed to any ground forces that would make it to the shores. The 12th through 16th Mechanized Infantry Divisions stationed in Mauritania would deploy to meet Athenian and Hispanic Invasion forces with their numbers and light armor, deploying drone reconnaissance to aid counter offensive operations against the invasions as a whole. Under the cover of mobile elements of the 7th to 10th RF&A, they would move west to meet the invasion should they survive the numerous forces stationed at sea. In particular, the 16th Mechanized would swing south towards Nzerekore and Faranah with the 10th RF&A on station with SHORAD, tactical and strategic air defenses on the look out for enemy aircraft. The 15th to 17th would begin initial deployments farther East inside former PRA territories to reinforce existing allied bases and begin a push west to aid the 16th Mechanized. Strikes on Ascension The attack on the heavily fortified island of Ascension by Colombia was not unexpected. As a pivotal African position in the Mid-Atlantic, its importance was never expected to be lost on the enemy. Crusader Rhiza, ranking officer of the African Union Security Forces had overseen the construction of Ascension since its acquirement. Plans for the island were as grandiose as they were complicated. From a mix of Guardian, Nemesis and Rampart radar sites located near Green Mountain, Weather post, Red Hill and Devil's Ashpit mountains - with analysis and processing centers buried deep underneath the cuarto of mountains, the incoming missiles would be detected as they streaked towards the island. Using doppler shift analysis upon the chaff dispensing cruise missiles, the weapons would begin to be engaged by a staggered file of surface to air weapons. TEL and TELAR vehicles of armored and unarmored varieties would still be engaged by Columbian attacks, however, despite the cover of stationary defense units. Vehicles targeted by anti-vehicle cluster bomblets would fare better than those that lay in the vicinity of Columbian high explosives however. With standard countermeasures such as flares, smoke, chaff and laser dazzlers, guided weapons launched against these targets would simply be less effective. Stationary targets such as hangars and runways were quite a different stories. Several runways located at the aforementioned mountain facilities were struck and cratered, hampering any friendly air operations from landing at the Island for a time. Port facilities on the west side of Ascension would be devastated despite the deployment of several Throne, Laelaps, HSAM-II, HSAM-III and Spangle-I and -II units throughout the island. Crusader Rhiza herself would allow the attacks to succeed entirely, with batteries only directed to protect themselves from attack. With the ports gone, only those facing Africa would be able to support any enemy amphibious push on Ascension herself. Defensive operations were aimed solely at the bombers' ordinance, as the land based defenses present on the island did not have the range to engage them. Green Mountain (860 m), Weather Post (610 m), Red Hill, Devil's Ashpit and Red Hill (500 m+).

Tunisian Air and Missile Campaign The Mediterranean was devoid of African vessels for the same reason that Georgian ships would be in perilous danger. Using data gleaned from the Relocatable OTH Radar (ROTHR) position present at Tamanrasset, as well as UAV intelligence and frontal aviation assets present from the 3rd, 18th and 22nd Rocket Forces and Artillery, several weapons systems would be cued to engage the enemy shipping. From positions further back on the African mainland, 20 TEL mounted anti-ship ballistic missiles would be launched. The bronzed Augoror missiles would be raised by the TELs and flew to engage the enemy shipping, targeting the largest vessels in the Georgian invasion flotilla -incidentally being the most least capable ships in the formation - the armored civilian cruise liners. Of course, these missiles - having the highest flight profile of all the weapons that would be fired at the Georgians - were projected to have the least amount of success, judging by intelligence estimates of both Athenian and Spanish ground forces in the area, Georgia's own ship-based defenses, as well as European aviation in the vicinity. It was ordered that the missiles would act as the bait in a hastily prepared series of Suppression/Destruction of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD/DEAD). As the missiles flew, five of the Aeon strategic bomber formations flying over Central Africa would provide fire support in the form of the Providence GAM (3,000 km), and Damnation IAM (1,400 km). These missiles would be chosen not only for their long stand-off ranges and flexibility in the form of sensors, but also for their added utility in having native support for multiple terminal warhead packages. The GAM would be able to split into two separate payloads at terminal distance, while the IAM struck like a Trident with two kinetic submunitions along with the main warhead. Twelve of the two missiles would be fired from each aircraft from underslung pylons and internal rotary launchers for a total of 720 weapons. The 360 GAMs would introduce 720 independently guided warheads to enemy landbased and sea based targets, while the IAM would strike at enemy shipping and concentrated air defenses with 360 main warheads and 720 additional penetrators. While the GAM and IAM would provide attack vectors against both the Georgian shipping and anti-radiation attacks against enemy platforms that engaged the Augorors fired at the Med, additional combat sorties aimed at firing tree top level, low speed, lower profile cruise missiles would also be added in the mix in order to saturate enemy air defenses and engage enemy formations in and around Firebase Falcon. Firing advanced capability Strategic Long-Range Munition Model 8 (SL-R mod 08) and SL-R mod 09 cruise missiles, another 2 squadrons of fire support bombers would fire a total of 480 of these weapons equipped with anti-radiation and anti-armor homing skeet submunitions. Returning to airbases in Central African locations, the seven bomber squadrons would provide round the clock sorties of the type to loosen the pressure being placed on Falcon from the south. In order to add additional obvious targets for enemy defenses to engage, several aircraft from the A-1 squadrons assigned to cover Aeon ground forces in Tunisia would fire the Eviscerator air launched anti-ship ballistic missile at ranges of 400 km. Designed to kill carriers, the weapons would drop heavy penetrator warheads on the decks of enemy ships, should they survive, at almost 90 degrees, almost negating the chance for ballistic-based ship defenses to engage them. In the case of enemy aviation engaging the bait weapons or any of the other ordinance launched against the North, armed AEWC&R craft providing coverage over the region would wait for enemy launch indicators, working with the 3rd, 18th and 22nd RF&As to engage enemy aircraft from stand-off ranges with the SARAH-37 and SIR-74AC-ER. The rocket forces and artillery would be on stand-by with the Heroic IRAD, Warrior IPAD and Valiant SHORAD missiles, HSAM-II surface to air complex, HSAM-III surface to air complex and the Cronus (S-117, T-280 and NT-280 missiles) surface to air complex. The five squadrons of F-32 Grey Widow and F-23 Black Widow air superiority fighters would provide assistance to allied AEWC&R and would go toe-to-toe with enemy aircraft heading south towards the bombers, A-1's or Aeon ground forces pushing north towards Regean, Hispanic and Athenian troop concentrations. Flying over the tree tops, the four Strategic Assault Transports would bear down north west of Jarjis, following paths their UAV reconnaissance complements had been deemed free of enemy forces. The SAAT's arrival would coincide with the first elements of the 33rd Armored Infantry Division's contact with Regean and Athenian ground forces near Falcon, which themselves moved under the cover of anti-mine artillery provided by militant engineering platoons as well as the increasing number of anti-air elements provided by the 18th and 22nd RF&A. Volley firing six dorsal mounted Cantor Heavy Anti-ship Missiles each from 120 km at tree-top level, each 300 kg warhead would contain 10 intelligent sensor fuzed submunitions. The submunitions themselves would rain down four infrared homing anti-armor skeets themselves, detonating explosively formed penetrators on enemy tanks, infantry formations and artillery units covering the ruins of the C-117 bridge. Once the transports beached themselves on the cleared landing area (perhaps violently after being counter attacked by enemy SHORAD units), the battalion-sized group of Elite Cadre shock troops would exit, storming the urban center of Sidi Ash Shammakh. The transports themselves would remain on station, providing fire support in the form of the 140 mm 'Concealable Rocket Launcher System' which would provide both self guided anti-armor, fragmentation and incendiary warheads to rain down upon the enemy, and short ranged anti-PGM and air defense in the form of 30 mm cannon and Spangle SAMs. Far in the vanguard of the Aeon advance, the Elite Cadre forces would be placed in the most perilous danger. With the 33rd Armored Infantry and 2nd Heavy Tank Division still coming from the South, the Elite Cadre would be the first Aeon ground forces to engage the enemy. Elements would begin to enter the built up areas surrounding Falcon and would engage in deadly urban warfare. This campaign would be the first to see the Principality's weaponized Crocuta crocuta utilized in action. The extensively trained and augmented beasts would resemble demons from hell as they and their handlers would engage Athenian and Regean troops in buildings and other close quarters scenarios. Prime targets would be artillery pieces and other logistic targets south and south east of the Regean/Athenian blockade of Falcon. OOC: Not sure where Cent's forces are. He mentioned something about them being deployed to help Gloval blockade me, so I'm assuming they are near Gabes, Hassi Jerbi, Northwest of Boughrara, Jebel ech Chambi and Urbem Rex. If you want to say there else where, we can work out a compromise in the OOC thread thanks to my liberal use of conditionals in the SAAT's deployment. The 21st and 37th air assault divisions would begin to engage enemy forces in and around Medinine as the spear head of the 33rd Armored Infantry Divisions push north. Engaging enemy troop and armor fortifications from below the tree line, Ravager and Black Mamba helicopters heavily use their networked warfare capabilities to the utmost to ensure the highest amount of enemy casualties while minimizing the window of opportunity to counter strike. Black Mamba's would elevate themselves from behind cover just enough for their mast mounter millimeter radar and EO/IR Target Acquisition Software Systems (TASS) to quickly scan a hit box over enemy troop formations before scooting back down. Nearby allied gunships would fire their anti-tank missiles from behind cover, using the data provided by the Mambas to allow their fire and forget weapons to rain down on the enemy. Flying at such low altitudes allowed them to use Regean infrastructure as impromptu cover, meaning the only vector that they could be reasonably attack with was the air. The infantry complements of the 21st and 37th would see themselves deployed to hotzones via Liberator Tilt Rotor assault crafts and Harbinger Assault Transports. These armed and armored air vehicles would provide an initial fire support upon landing, with helicopter assault infantry providing both boots on the ground and field artillery pieces to fire northwards. If no targets were sighted by the division's force reconnaissance elements, they would push northwards in support of the blockade breaking attempt on the East of Falcon. The 2nd Heavy Tank division would trundle onwards, meeting and surpassing the beleagured 33rd Armored Infantry's advance to provide much needed meat to the otherwise infantry heavy Aeon assault force heading North. Of course, this assault force would see a delay of the 33rd Armored Infantry's arrival. The Athenian and Hispanic attack on Tataouine was relatively light, perhaps done to scope out the extent the Aeon controlled the battle space to the south with. Nevertheless, a number of platoons would not make it home following the attack. The low altitude, stand-off missile attack was heavily negated, but not thwarted entirely. Numerous HSAM-II and Throne TELs and TELARs had been engaged by the enemy missile attack - although the active and passive last ditch defenses each vehicle enjoyed worked wonders at increasing their survivability when the anti-PGM and anti-air umbrella failed, there was little a vehicle-mounted hardkill system could do against cruise missile sized warheads. Defenses filtering in, being dropped by LAPES, or covering from the AU protectorate would continue to scan the skies for the imminent Athenian, German and Hispanic regroup. Counter SEAD/DEAD Operations The German drone missiles would prove an exotic foe for the Rocket Forces and Artillery to engage. Aeon commanders didn't know what to make of the slow moving objects once they crossed into the point where their DRFM signals could be sent back to Aeon receivers as false returns. The volume of the attack was alarming. Cross referencing with both the long ranged ROTHR at Tamenrasset, along with the Gelert radars present with the 3rd, 18th and 22nd RF&A, the 200 subsonic missiles were detected as they crossed the Mediterranean. It would be technically impossible for the DRFM onboard a missile to emulate returns of such high power radars. Amongst other things, the effectiveness of the German simulation attack would end up depending on the power output of the jammer missiles themselves and the chosen radar bandwidth a given German missile wanted to defend against. In order to be effective, German missiles needed to emit enough power in the frequency of the Aeon radar to mask its actual return signal or simulate a fake signal realistically. Indeed, the volume of the German missile attack allowed the missiles to choose between jamming a single Aeon frequency and fooling a number of closely related Aeon systems very realistically, while also ordering other missiles to cover a number of frequencies less effectively. However, by cross referencing returns, Aeon operators began to notice once air defenses began launching SAMs at the targets that some missiles showed up in some bands, while others didn't. Aeon commanders began to fire inertially navigated and semi-active radar homing missiles present as part of the HSAM-II, III and Cronus complexes. These missiles, mixed in with a number of what would ultimately be wasted defensive shots, would switch to anti-radiation seeking warheads as a terminal seeking mode. These missiles would be the ones to strike their targets. Once the drone missiles had closed in to ultimately shorter range tactical and strategic SAMs would be ordered to fire on other emerging threats. It would be the Valiant SHORAD system, in conjunction with the Spangle-I and II systems and their EO/IR seekers to kill remaining drones at 10, 12 and 80 km. Unless the drones had flares or flickering skins, they would be hit. In particular, the Valiants, low cost missiles designed to be used to win attrition attacks would prove essential in combating the threat. The real threat, the massed enemy anti-radiation attack in the from of Valhalas would prove more serious. With systems taxed with engaging drone targets, and even with the eventual automatic target switching of the Aeon queue system, a number of attacks would be successful. The Laelaps IARMDS system would prove essential in helping the Aeon weather the brunt of the anti-radiation attacks. With the heavily armored Maxis 10x10 TEL units responding with their Garmr Countermeasures Rapid Response Systems and Pulse Doppler radar masts, these units would work as intended to defeat many of the Valhalas and other anti-radiation attacks in conjunction with vehicle and stationary mounted chaff, smoke and laser dazzling units. Once the dedicated missile tracking radars determined a incoming attack vectors of ARM strikes, the many Maxis and other Garmr equipped TEL vehicles would begin firing their point defense attacks. The Sirius hovering rocket - built to similar dimensions as the Valiant to ensure cost effectiveness - would be launched by Garmr units to place the radiation sources in an intercept between the actual radar and incoming missile. Based on technology designed to project false returns of ships to active radar seeking anti-ship missiles, Sirius would simulate a persistent, moving radiation source matching the classification of the actual radar a Valhala or other ARM was tracking. Nevertheless, a large portion of the Short and Tactical ranged search and track radars were hit in the attacks with a high success rate due to the false returns of enemy drone missiles, and tendencies for the Laelaps to defend more important radars further back. These systems would be rendered blind until secondary and tertiary systems were brought online. For now, SHORAD units present with Aeon forces at the front line would need to rely on networked systems still online to deliver radar guided missiles to the air, or depend on short ranged EO/IR missiles on their own. East African Campaigns: Homeland Fortunately for the Aeon, the cowardly attack on the East African homeland by the Tianxian rocket forces prior to a declaration of war was entirely expected. In addition, the rather cliche tactic of high intensity saturation attack was one the Principality had stressed its Rocket Forces and Artillery to be prepared for for almost a decade. Indeed, all manners of defenses erected in East Africa would be used to stave off the attack. The Nodic Distant Early Network located near the brunt of the enemy attacks would be amongst the first defenses to receive word of the attacks. COMFOR- based defenses would co-ordinate with mobile and stationary elements in a multi-layered defense of the homeland as well in an ironic turn of events for the turbulent East African homeland. Nodes in both the Stategic Command Agency and the expeditionary forces of the Rocket Forces and Artillery present in the strike would quickly assign targets based on shared intelligence from a variety of sensors to an innumerable amount of shooters. Simultaneous launches would be engaged upon differing targets with priority given towards maximum probability of intercept, not location. Guardian Distant Early Warning radars present at Nyala, El Obeid, Al Dabbah, Jimma and Dadaab would provide overlapping coverage with maximum ranges of 4,200 km (VHF model) and 6,200 km (UHF model) each. These multi-story tall radars would remain on station despite the inevitable enemy attack against them. With the COMFOR- standard the bases used stressing survivability even in the face of overwhelming enemy fire integrated at every possible instance, these radars would be supplemented by a secondary, tertiary and quaternary units - each housed in a metal enclosure that would be capable of being released in record time with the assistance of explosive bolts, shielded against both non and nuclear induced EMP attacks. Designed for the long distance monitoring of African airspace, the Guardian DEW radars present at each base were designed for the detection and tracking of enemy ballistic missiles, high flying cruise missiles and satellites. They were geared for detecting and tracking a great number of targets consistent with a massive attack. Their roles as decimetric and centimetric high power radars would also provide initial points of interest for networked air search, detect and track radars to find stealthed aircraft and ordinance. Processing to rapidly discriminate between vehicle types, calculate launch and impact points and schedule the necessary data analysis and communications between other sensor systems, the Guardian radars would be instrumental in mounting a focused defense and counter attack. Produing numerous sub-beams to paint an extreme amount of targets, the Guardians would begin co-ordinating with the stationary and TEL/TELAR mounted radars of the Throne, Laelaps, HSAM-II, HSAM-III and Cronus systems present in the homeland, as well as the AN/FPS-124 and AN/FPS-117 radars part of the Nodic Distant Early Warning network and IR/EO secondary seeking modes of the Spangle SHORAD missile family. The Nemesis Over the Horizon-Backscatter (OTH-B) system, with two transmitter and receiver arms 3.4 km long and 100 km apart located at each COMFOR- base, would provide additional cross referencing data for the numerous DEW systems present in the theatre. With both the ability to scan low RCS targets from extensive ranges in a top-down profile as well as detect low flying targets like SEAD/DEAD aircraft and cruise missiles with doppler shift analysis, the Nemesis would prove its worth by supplementing existing systems used in the Aeon defense. A number of flights of the Rampart Low Altitude Attack Sensor System (LAASS) would be present at several strategic locations throughout Aeon held Sudan and Ethiopia. A system originally devised to aid the Nemesis and Centurion systems on COMFOR- bases against low altitude attacks, the LAASS was essentially a long endurance AWACs unit consisting of two aerostats suspending both and x-band fire control radar, 360 degree VHF surveillance radar and tube fired SIR-74AC-ERs. Moored to a mobile communication and processing unit per pair of aerostats, the Rampart would be essential in detecting low altitude attacks as they flew in from Arabia, easing the burden of the heavily taxed AWACs and AEWC&R fleets of the AMC. With the homefield advantage, and close proximity of the enemy launch sites, each Tianxian weapon would be tracked continuously by a queued sensor and shooter. Once in range, weapons systems belonging to the aforementioned radars, as well as airborne missiles provided by the F-12 Tarantula armed AEWC&R crafts would begin to engage both propulsion vehicles, or objects that separate from them, in the air. The aim of the initial Aeon defense would be to acquire as enemy weapon in the boosting or ascent-stage as possible. With such huge infrared signatures of the boosting ballistic missiles and extensive radar coverage present in East Africa from both ground based and air-based sources, defenses would be fired in order to hit the targets before warheads separated from boosters and counter measures were deployed. The Tianxian saturation attacks would be managed as networked shooters would simply dump their weapons into the air to be directed by either Data-link, semi-active radar modes or simply flown to target locations via Inertial Navigation Systems before switching to EO/IR terminal seeking modes. As the attacks flew over Aeon airspace, and initial picket defenses were fired and relocated, the Tianxian missile attacks would see more and more attrition the farther they flew into Aeon territory. The S-117s belonging to the Cronus missile complex would be the longest reaching and first to fire weapons in the defense in depth of East Africa. With maximum target speeds of mach 20, these larger missiles would be fired from purpose built positions belonging to the SCA (Strategic Command Agency) or heavy tracked and wheeled TELs and TELARs belonging to the Nascent Military Command's (Army) Rocket Forces and Artillery. Leaping out at speeds in excess of mach 11, with a maximum target altitude of 185 km, the missiles would use INS and semi-active radar in the midcourse stage before using active radar homing in the terminal stage. The HSAM-III missile family would be the next responders. While not as flexible in terms of missile speed and range in depth as the HSAM-II complex, the HSAM-III family provided the highest performance estimates against enemy air breathing assets available in the Aeon inventory with a better mix of sensor types, missile maneuverability and kinetic energy afforded by reducing the speed of the missile while keeping similar fuel to the HSAM-II. Stationary and forward operating HSAM-II complexes would provide the bulk of the Aeon missile response in the form of the entire HSAM-II family of weapons. From ranges of 2.5 km to 200 km these weapons would be located near the bulk of probable Tianxian targets. Thankfully, Tianxian intelligence of the Aeon homeland was quite low, and the HSAM-IIs provided effective defense with their higher speeds and highly effective top-down attack profile when used in conjunction with AWACs and the Rampart LAASS. Everything from INS, SARH, ARH, Track-via-missile (TVM), anti-radiation and home-on jam would be used against the variety of targets present. Once the first ballistic launches were detected, additional Rocket Forces and Artillery Divisions on standby would be activated. Aircraft in the air would be warned of attacks on obvious, stationary targets such as runways or exposed hangar complexes. The Aeon defenders would simply allow the attacks on the shore facilities located on the Red Sea to go unhindered, as the actually vital facilities further south and south west in allied territory would be far out of range from any attack from Arabia. It was considered a foolish notion even in the days of Nod to base naval assets of any kind on the Red Sea, as it would be a death trap for anyone involved should war break out. These attacks would be completely effective in wiping out any chance of an enemy amphibious attack from across the Red Sea, and would even be aided by shelling from nearby Aeon artillery pieces themselves. The lack of Tianxian intelligence gathering coupled with the wide-spread proliferation of scoot n' shoot tactics and platforms would render their counter-counter PGM attacks essentially fruitless. Only attacks against widely known and stationary sites would show some semblance of effect. Runways, surface barracks' and stationary radars would be hit in some places. Incidentally, any attempt to engage Aeon command and control would be met with the stiff resistance of decentralization. Indeed, the only centralized positions the Tianxians could hope to know about were in the form of Administrative buildings long since evacuated following the Aeon declaration of war. These buildings, located in densely populated cities throughout Aeon would be hit the hardest, with many civilian casualties and first responder deaths. With the aircraft already up in the air, suppression attacks against the AMC were quite futile. All aircraft not devoted to sorties in North Africa or aboard Militant Naval Command carrier groups would be scrambled for an imminent counter attack. The air-based attacks from the North would not go unnoticed. Squadrons of F-23 and F-32 air superiority aircraft would work together with AWACs and AEWC&R to maintain a vigilance against air launched SEAD and DEAD attacks against the taxed RF&A forces. With the 3rd through 5th, 11th and 19th RF&A in place to support the attack on Egypt and 16th to 18th on the Sudanese/Ethiopian border, there would be plenty in place to make sure such attacks were not devastating. In particular, the Laelaps IARMDS would prove essential in preserving both the radars and launchers of the RF&A themselves along with the Spangle-I and Spangle-II systems and short ranged component of the HSAM-II complex. Laelaps would detect incoming enemy missiles, firing preliminary strikes against the incoming ordinance with the Warrior and Heroic missiles while also directing friendly HSAM-II and HSAM-III components as well as the Throne AMRADs to engage enemy ordinance in a staggered formation. SCALS equipped 'drone carriers', as AMC personnel would later call the unarmed cargo aircraft would provide an added airborne distributed sensor net in the form of swarms of SEAD-MA-EM ELINT/SIGINT drones. SEAD-MA and SEAD-MA-EM drones would be deployed to saturate the Aeon airspace should Tianxia become emboldened. Electronic warfare drones deployed by the Tianxian airforce would be met with home-on jam and anti-radiation equipped strategic surface to air missiles provided by HSAM-III units. Radars effected by the initial jamming would either hop to other frequencies, chirp their radar pulses to momentarily boost their power or simply utilize side lobe blanking. While the blanking would effectively blind the radar for a moment, it would be able to discern a rough source location of the jamming and either direct one of the aforementioned H-OJ or ARM equipped fire and forget missiles or ask for the aid of an unaffected radar. For those aircraft that were foolish enough to launch attacks by crossing over the border, they would be met with no mercy. With the Russian Tu-160 bomber being nothing close to a stealth aircraft, Aeon Combat Air Patrols of Air Superiority craft would have a field day. Waiting for the bombers to pass the Red Sea, as indicated by allied radars on the ground, the Aeon aircraft would launch long ranged air to air missiles utilizing a mix of semi-active radar homing and inertial navigation to close in on the aircraft before switching to a last ditch terminal EO/IR seeking mode. Crashing in a top down configuration, the stealthy attack would be impossible for the Russians to detect, and the angle of attack of the missiles fired would minimize the chance of being dazzled by chaff or flares. Space Campaign of Terror Space was the final frontier. It would also be host to one of the most sophisticated forms of warfare the planet had ever seen. Fortunately for the Aeon, it had a taken a number of measures to not be caught flat footed in the wake of the Lunar Republic's build up of space. The Aeon declaration that no unallied satellite would be allowed to traverse over East Africa without being unhindered still stood. The advent of war did not change that. Unfriendly satellites would continue to be tracked by the Guardian and naval based radar systems as they passed over choice territory, and blindings and jammings still commenced. With the TSI arrayed against it, the Aeon would engage any satellites that repeatedly crossed over friendly territory, using doppler shift and probability analysis to enhance predictions on where enemy satellites were. TEL, silo and air launched ASAT attacks would continue in earnest until the war's conclusion. It would be assumed that the threat of crossing into debris and nature of the war would keep away those that were truly innocent owners of unaffiliated satellites after the first number of sorties had finished. Any nation worth the Aeon's concern would have the capability to track the increase in debris and act accordingly to avoid the threat. Those that did not would be treated as looking for trouble. As for the Aeon's own satellites, the cornerstone of the Aeon's operations to frustrate the TSI's vaunted space superiority would be the Ash Satellite family. These satellites were amongst the first of their kind - designed to be purposefully stealthy in the face of traditional radar-based detection techniques. The entire family of Ash satellites were equipped with a radar/laser deflector. The conical balloon shaped deflector was capable of being made rigid at the satellite's pleasure or on exposure to ultraviolet radiation from typical ground based radars. Once deployed, the cone shaped balloon would steer laser and radar energy off into space, essentially hiding it from view. Ash satellites would thus operate for as long as possible over enemy airspace, activating their deflectors once radar emissions were detected being thrown in their areas. These stealth satellites would prove essential in prolonging the Aeon space presence until replacements and further weaponized satellites were launched into space. The Ash family was capable of explosively ejecting debris to both shield the radar from view or simulate a successful attack on the source satellite to fool enemy ASAT operations into thinking a near miss was a direct hit. Incidentally, in the face of the Tianxian co-orbital threat, Ash satellites would begin operations of offensively utilizing their normally defensive measure to destroy threats in space. Ash-II and Ash-III models were designed around what incidentally was the Tianxian mindset with regards to satellite survivability. The Ash-II was an armored, highly mobile multi-purpose satellite that could change its orbit numerous times, surpassing the capability of its contemporaries. The Ash-III was of a different spin altogether. Comprised of a number of small, co-orbital fragments, the Ash-III was designed to survive with several of its component fragments damaged or destroyed, communicating via laser or fiber optic tether between working components. Older Witness class satellites, which presented themselves in a similar I, II and III pattern, although unequipped with the reflector or debris ejection system would perform similar maneuvers such as frequently altering orbits to frustrate coalition ASAT tactics. If such maneuvers would work for them, it could work for the Aeon. The Strategic Command Agency, along with numerous defense contractors would quickly work to develop low-cost replacements or inexpensive add-ons to existing terrestrial based stores of satellite replacement units. They would look at energy or laser based solutions to the Star Wars as they unfolded - but were not above strapping a 30mm aircraft cannon and compensation system to a satellite and clearing it for duty. Such wartime R&D was risky, but could ultimately pay off if given time. Precious orbital infrastructure belonging to Athens and Tianxia would be deliberately targeted by the Aeon SCA. As far as it was concerned, the TSI had waived its rights to utilizing space for any means if it used those facilities for offensive purposes. Barring the glaringly public space habitats, a number of weaponized Sternbild rockets of Papuan origin would be fired over the course of the war for as long as possible. Targeting MEO satellites previously deemed invulnerable to traditional ASAT techniques as well as the satellite maintenance, refueling and construction facilities belonging to the TSI lingering in high orbit, this attack was aimed at throwing as much debris and submunitions in the wake of the massive kinetic attack the hardened and thoroughly heat resistant Sternbild warhead would deliver upon a strike. The submunitions themselves would be of a form similar to traditional anti-armor, IR seeking cluster bomb skeets the size of claymore mines. The Sternbilds, even as they flew towards their targets, would begin dumping hundreds upon hundreds of these skeets for the duration of the campaign in the vicinity of TSI space infrastructure to prevent the widely proliferated 'space tugs' from doing their duty and repairing the damage. Egypt Campaign With both sides possessing a formidable surface to air capability, it was in the Aeon Crusader's mind that it would be the ground forces that would deliver the day to their respective side. It was the aim of the Aeon to make the TSI fight like men, placing them in a position where they simply could not cope with copping out and lobbing cruise missiles in the direction of the enemy. With a logistic train runningsecurely south, and LAPES flights flying round the clock to deliver ordinance, the Principality could afford to spend more missiles than usual against enemy air breathing assets. F-5s would be magnificent trophies for the Rocket Forces and Artillery operating in the area to claim as kills. As each expendable drone was shot with an expensive air-to-air missile, the missile in question would be bombarded by as many countermeasures the drone had as possible in order to maximize the chance of the F-5 to be detected by waiting missile forces. SEAD-MAs, SEAD-MA-ER and SEAD-MA-EMs would work together with their controllers to achieve better results at detecting the stealthy aircraft - an airborne wild weasel attempt to successfully attack as many F-5s as possible as they engaged Aeon drone craft. The ER-M-51 strikes would be the first hurtle the Divisions crossing into Egypt would face after they overwhelmed the border guards found with Aeon firepower. With systems like the HSAM-II, HSAM-II, Throne, Laelaps, Spangle as well as mobile Thrasher Gun/Missile systems, at least half of the ordinance launched would be intercepted enroute. With the Valiant SHORAD present in the Throne system, missiles were intercepted at jaw droppingly close distances of 10 km. Weapons that survived would crash into their targets with precision. Aeon vehicles equipped to STARS standards would utilize passive systems to jam or divert the ER-M-51's with smoke and flares in the case of IR and EO detection, laser dazzling in the form of laser guided attacks and finally last ditch hard kill systems aimed at stopping ordinance at distances of 50 m. The heaviest of the attack force, the Colossi Super-Heavy tanks and Titan MBTs would use their comprehensive armor and passive deformation designs, as well as the East African inclination to armor the tops of their vehicles more than contemporaries and utilize unmanned turrets where possible to survive a number of the explosively formed penetrators launched from the cluster munitions. Those hit with HDRM warheads would be destroyed however. Lighter vehicles fared much worse. Aeon IFVs, APCs and fast reconnaissance vehicles littered the landscape as charred rubble. Nevertheless, with curses filling their helmets, the Aeon trundled on. Both the self-propelled artillery provided by the Rocket Forces, along with the air dropped field artillery being placed by the Air Assault Divisions, would begin shelling as they advanced passed the border. Assisted by more launches from the rear guard RF&A, Athenians in the vicinity of the attacks would question themselves to see the shells and submunitions unfurl white parachutes as they descended. With these weapons deploying localized area radar jammers, with each 120mm, 155mm and cruise missile submunition capable of jamming a specific frequency for around 10 km across, these jammers would be used against any Athenian build up encountered. These attacks would serve to isolate pockets of defenders from reporting the attacks themselves, prevent calls for reinforcements and intelligence from being easily sent and act as a deterrent against attempts to frustrate the Aeon advance from behind its lines. -Cent's Indian stuff along with the rest being argued in the OOC thread -Shammy's attack on Ascension -Responses done against the TSI in Sulieman, although its already been responded in that thread. Just a copy pasta for the most part however, but there will need to be mesh of the sulieman thread and the Assassination thread in order to make sure i don't canonically have more troops/aircraft etc deployed than i should. These missing parts should be delivered promptly in a part two response together with IC government reactions to the war as it is, following Tanis' approval of my drafts of course.

Tanis has done a wonderful job and should be commended. First and foremost, for his patience in the face of the insults hurled at him for doing a thankless job. For having his integrity questioned, and for having to put up with the blather he's probably reading right now. Triyun and myself both agreed to have Tanis as our neutral party. It is not Tanis' fault that deliberations took longer than expected because Triyun and others in the OOC thread have not been forthcoming when it came to the compromise we need to move forward. Under Tanis' guidance, i've given a lot to the TSI's side without a thing in return. I've wasted time and effort digging up links to my hardware to be as transparent as possible. I bent to Tanis' will when he said that the TSI would have first dibs on the rest of my 'shitty' alliance members' land even though myself and Mara are right beside the land in question. Heck, I even allowed Cent to retcon part of his post to allow the super stealth bomber issue be dropped for the time being. Tell me Sarah, what have I gotten in return? Dismissing Tanis' efforts as 'not being able to move the war forward' is a travesty you should be ashamed of. Hey, Sarah, I know you mentioned that you wouldn't be responding to any comment I made during your rage post. I don't care. I want you to read this though: Tanis has done a lot on his own voluntarily, much more than you could have ever done had you been in his position to be frank. Definitely much more than you've done in all your instances of being GM up until now. Personally, I couldn't give a damn about what you think, Sarah. Your actions here show me that you don't deserve it. I have been in contact with everyone as much as possible. I have not disappeared for weeks at a time. If I have noticed that no threads related to the war have been moved with a new post, I go on IRC to check out what's going on. You complained that all you do is hear about the war in IRC whenever you are online - what, are you telling me no one has the ovaries to bring up the topic when I enter the channel? If you are so concerned about this, why not query me? No. I have maintained contact with whoever possible, responded in as timely a manner as possible and have been as co-operative as possible. What, do you want me to just give my nation over to you? Is that the sort of compromise you're looking for? We have all seen Triyun bail out of the OOC thread because he didn't like what Tanis' rulings were. If that isn't considered a huge roadblock in continuing this war, I don't know what is. Why have you not threatened to wipe Tianxia, Sarah? Afraid you won't be able to RP out your honeymoons or whatever with it gone? You are biased and don't deserve to be a GM, Sarah. Wait. You want him to get the war to continue, but want him to stop posting in the OOC thread? You then try to go the high road and complain we aren't talking about how the war will continue? Are you really that dense? I won't ask why the coalition won't be wiped by you Sarah. I know why. You've gone from threatening to wipe the war to wiping me. You are a lazy GM. Your blindness and obvious bias deserves the community's scorn... and Triyun tried to say that Tanis was biased. Pathetic. Oh hell no. I will definitely be posting a response. You've done nothing as a GM and you have just reaffirmed that you won't be responding to any queries regarding the war. Good thing Tanis is around to - oh wait, you dismissed him too. You don't have the power to do that unilaterally. Why people keep voting you in as GM astounds me. EDIT: Just incase the board formatting made it unclear. I do not have shitty alliance members - I only wanted to mock Sarah's comments about my shit alliance. The only thing that is shit right now is the way she's carrying out her duties as a GM.

Curri, Zoot and Tanis

So i've submitted the first half of my response to the cleared portions of the war to Tanis for compliance with his rulings, let's get started talking about the Indian.

See, I would have loved to keep this thread about the Tech, heck I promised I would not start an exchange like this. I didn't want to even reference the current war when discussing tech reform. But this is just too rich. I hate to break it to ya Triyun, but the reason you're waxing philosophical right now is because you've ran into a roadblock. I remember when I had to deal with the mess of the Korean war as a GM. I'll admit it right now - I was never pressed as hard as I was during that GMship period [i][b]by myself[/b][/i] to be as neutral and compromising as possible as I was then - strictly because I had to deal with you, and the OOC history between myself and your side while operating in a position of power. I can honestly say that period was the most neutral of my entire short GM career, and I thank you and others for putting me off on the position for as long as I remain on these boards. I sat down and read through your IRC paragraphs of bickering with Kankou - read the queries you made with me and tried to mediate between you two when you shared space in the GM channel. I brokered a deal with you two that took several hours of my time, time that should have been spent having fun - a deal you ended up breaking when you realized you didn't like what it actually entailed. I confirmed then that you actively go out to get your own way when you RP. It isn't the conquest or thrill of the hunt as you continue to harp - you just love to see the yesmen say yes and watch people lose their dignity as they flounder against you. That's why you've attacked certain choice individuals relentlessly (I won't name names) over the span of many re-rolls, and rage whenever things don't go your way - be it the Korean war when I brokered the deal with Kankou's tunnels, or immediately questioning Tanis' fitness as a mod back in the 'Assassination' OOC thread. You are a hypocrite, and you employ a number of strategic alliances to make sure your side is the most vocal. You say I should not make negative sweeping connotations about others, yet you do the same in the same breath. I am not saying I won't get along with you unless you change - I actively want no part with you if I can help it, and will proceed down certain IC roads to make sure of it (alliances, governments, political stances). This is my right as an RPer, and it was not your right, nor Gloval's right to take away the notion that maybe it was a coincidence that my nation wanted nothing to do with you. I mean, I used the same mechanic when I turned down Korea's offer of an alliance when I was Nod. I don't believe you are the bad guy. I don't believe you are the boogeyman either. I just believe that I do not wish to associate my RP with you if I can help it. I don't hate you. I just don't like your smugness, I don't like your self aggrandization, and I don't like your affinity for hurling veiled insinuations that I am somehow jealous of your 'status' or prominence in CNRP. That is an unforgiveable insult of the highest degree. You are woven from the cloth of someone who feels he perpetually does no wrong, and feels the need to endlessly chastise and belittle others. Your uncooperativeness and unwillingness to be forthcoming in that OOC thread are just as responsible for the war's halt as Vince's inane feelings about my 'childishness' or your notion that I am nitpicking or asking too many questions. The fact that I ask those questions is because I will not allow you to slip an inch past me that is not [b][i]deserved[/i][/b], with the same ooc tactics you've used on countless others i've watched over the years. This problem is not about the tech, everyone. Triyun is right. The AUP and later AU was formed in a direct response to the Declaration of Territoriality the Horde tried to push on Vedran. The fact that you have an interesting history with Africa is not an issue - you did not have a policy of leaving it alone. I'm not sure how much of that convo Gloval showed you, but leaked posts that are months old saying i'd suicide by cop and nuke you pre-emptively tells you what? That it was a plan that was not used. Remember that post you tried to use to make the boards think that TBM was trying to get himself elected as a GM to help our 'cause' attack you? I wonder why you never posted the responses the AUP made to that? I can give you two reasons - [u][b]there were no responses to that[/b][/u], or [u][b]Gloval intentionally neglected to give you that tidbit of information[/b][/u]. I'm sorry, but your deliberate and extremely manipulative airing of those screenshots cemented your position in my books. [u]Your chance at mutual cooperation with me is as nil as the sincerity of your current attempt to extend an olive branch to Mara for the sake of 'bettering the RP'[/u]. Your constant mocking of Mara on IRC is the proof I have, anyone that is not a complete tool will readily admit to that. I have never denied there is OOC animosity between us. I don't care what the peanut gallery thinks of me. You are a manipulative, hypocritical tool that hates being opposed in any capacity, throws tantrums when he does not get his way and purposefully sabotages constructive discussions with feints at displaying superiority or compassion. The fact that you continue to say that we attacked first, or that this war was an attempt by the AUP to bully Gloval into leaving Africa is absurd, and is most probably the first IC/OOC crossing i've seen where IC has made its way into OOC and not the other way around. You either held leaked conversation screenshots of the AUP in advance, or (more unlikely given Uberstein's erratic history, he probably did this of his own accord) employed Gloval to leak those screenshots. In either case, you knew they would be incriminating when posted without context, and would give you an edge in the PR battle when the war of the AUP versus the TSI happened. I will never make a deal with your side Triyun. A light loss or cost-free peace will not be sought by myself, since it simply is not worth it. I learned that the hard way when I gave Centurius an out during the Hello Nod war. I allowed him a reprieve so he could organize his alliance for his IG war and what did I get? Constant snipes that he 'could have crushed me whenever he wanted' (much like the ones you're giving me now). Heck, when Gloval made his declaration of his EEZ, he called me out on IRC and said I'd !@#$% out and not answer that with the force it deserves. When Gloval declared his EEZ surrounding our base, and purposefully excluded our right to free passage to it, that was an act of war. Your allies' immediate rush to expedite defensive treaties with Gloval and his abrupt departure from the AUP prior is clear proof of premeditiation. Will you deny it here OOC? Say what you want IC, but if you truly believe that to not be an act of war, a deliberate act to seek war with me only when you have your safety net of allies behind you, then you my friend are a piece of work. Either Gloval is a mastermind genius that schemed to get us at each others throats, or you had a serious part to play in order to start this war. You are more than welcome to put a boot to my throat - if you manage to you'd be the first and I would congratulate you. I have already given members of the AU numerous outs at many times during its existence - heck, you even used the one I gave Curristan in your propaganda airing of those leaked screenshots. I am not afraid to operate alone. I will not say that this war will be a winning one for me, but I will not allow it to be one won with ingenuousness or intimidation - much like your other 'cost-free [i][b]conquests[/b][/i]' that helped spur the creation of the AUP. You can play as much as you want to make me seem like the bad guy - I already know that the people that [i][b]matter[/b][/i] on the boards know that not to be the case. It won't help you.

Okay, with regards to the status of this war, just a few facts I want to set straight. 1) My offer to Cent is to allow him to retcon his bomber attack for a stand-off attack. That way his bombers would not be put in a situation where they'd be frankly raped. We stop arguing over whether or not they are invincible, at least for this war (I am sure others, including myself, would love to debate whether or not his aircraft should be allowed to be stealth even in these conditions). This argument can continue for as long as it takes, and any rulings or what have you can be implemented then. Right now, however, this discussion is essentially the only qualm my side has with the North African war besides JED's extreme lack of casualties (although I accepted that as merely the benchmark at which this war's occupants can expect). Will Cent be editing his post for me to respond? Or can I just assume in my counter attack (with appropriate OOC annotations) that he tried to perform a mix of low-altitude CMs along with stand-off anti-radiation attacks? 2) If Cent decides he does not want this offer, then what exactly did you rule, Tanis? That his plane's were stealth but he can't use them too often because of economy? I'll need to be briefed on what you mean by this before I can respond. 3) I do not agree that Triyun can apply his commercial shipping ploy to his fleet while negating that same effect on my fleet. Triyun can say all he wants about his deployments - all I care about is his negation of the fog of war - especially when he seeks to clutter it up with worrying about Commercial shipping, something that I doubt has ever been applied to any other RPer in CNRP. He has not proven that, minus the imaging UAVs, he has a significant platform, system or tactic that could have so accurately determined where my fleet was while denying me the same chance to at least recognize the massive build up in the Indian - the most likely vector of attack once my boots hit Gloval's ground. That debate will have to continue in this thread. Whether that means keeping Tanis as the moderator for this debate or finding a new one - I will not bow to a ruling made by the three current GMs on this issue, as common sense dictates that their neutrality would be placed in question - just as Triyun feels he needs to complain about Tanis' rulings now because of perceived biases he may or may not have. Argue all you want, but we both agreed on Tanis to enter this conflict neutral. Even if I humor you and give you the fact that Tanis is biased (I don't), Triyun, he only became 'biased' because of his findings. Don't ask someone to smell your feet and then get offended when they wrinkle their nose. 4) I have agreed to give the TSI their initial opening moves against African protectorates - this does not include Eritrea since Vince erroneously changed the label, it has always been a strict AU protectorate - in the Sulieman thread. Conforming to Tanis' ruling, I'm going to include the responses I made to your movements in Sulieman in the AU's round of responses (the round getting pushed forward by points 1 and 2) that address the non-issue theatres. It will be a simple cut-and-paste job. I'll be assuming the TSI's movements coincided with the round of posts I will be responding to. If all is well, then a response to the non-offensive TSI posts will commence asap. Please post your agreement or disagreement with these facts here boys and girls. This is what I bring to the table. This is my compromise.

Tell that to the little guy when his 1000 tech drops from being worth 2011 hardware to 1970's hardware. The fact that you guys are considering this shows just how blind some of you people are.

If you guys wanna bump yourselves down to Vietnam Era, be my guest, but you're digging your own graves guys. The big boys are always going to hug the highest tiers. Shammy is right. All this will do will make it easier for the little guy to get crushed.

I appreciate Tanis' efforts at being as informed as possible before making nation changing rulings - despite what the peanut gallery may say. But I realize being in a position that counters Triyun for very long is ultimately one's folly given the current status of Cnrp. I am prepared to allow Cent to retcon his cluster bombing for a more safer (for his aircraft) standoff cm attack. He gets to get away with his light losses, and ill stop demanding more dead airframes. This way, Cent does not have impossible-to detect aircraft. Of course, should he place his aircraft in similar circumstances again, he will be detectedand shot at, since his bombers do not have Harry Potter's invisibility cloak. This will allow the north africa campaign to continue. In another favor to Tanis, I will not dispute the TSI's status quo in the sulieman thread. They moved first, then I did withoit knowing just yet that they did. The thread stays the same, and is merged into the Assassination thread as legitimate moves the Tsi made. Mara and I will copy our responses and include them in the new round of responses to the north african campaign. Indian ocean will need more work. Just the naval part, the moves on seychelles and somalia will remain as they are like i mentioned above.

[quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1358398123' post='3077869'] Also, EM, that SR-71 like ground attack aircraft is super unrealistic from several aerospace people that I nice chat to, also another RP community I gotten to know from the various nerds here, laughed. [/quote] No time to analyze the entire hubbub that's been created here with the time it deserves just yet, but i'll respond to this quickly. Its just a faster Tu-22M, or rather, a Tu-22M that can get away at speeds. If you must, you could think of it as a smaller Tu-160. Same usage. As for super unrealistic, please tell me you've talked about the Mach 20 exoatmospheric drone fighters. Mach 3 pales in comparison. [quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1358399571' post='3077877'] EM and Mara. If you both have no qualms on north Africa, I strongly urge to post replies on that front. Triyun and those in the Indian will still have to wait, unless willing to accept neutral detection by commercial vessels. Cent's aircraft will still be hard to detect even with all the radar coverage; however, this in turn will make additional sorties harder due to more maintenance required to upkeep the coating, as it pertains to north Africa. if he decides to forgo or anyone else with similar technology to skip maintaining the coating, the aircraft will become notably more detectable. [/quote] I have a qualm with Centurius escaping with so little kills on his bombers. Again, if he argues he can remain stealth under those circumstances, and you guys expect me to accept that wholeheartedly, then you're asking the entire community to accept the fact that Cent's bombers are basically invulnerable to detection as no other scenario like the one he stumbled into would produce a stronger chance to detect that aircraft. As a whole, responding by skimming through the recent exchange - I categorically will not accept the current GMs as being unbiased as they are in the war and are undoubtedly against me, just as Triyun seems to think Tanis is against him because he was able to come to a conclusion Triyun did not support. Triyun and I accepted Tanis as a neutral GM - his rulings and conclusions should be respected - I have not bought, nor manipulated Tanis into his decision - Zoot and Shammy are privy to the little contact i've had with Tanis - and Triyun himself was fed snippets of the only conversation I had with Tanis on IRC, by Tanis himself in a bid to be neutral. I think Triyun's reactions now are an example on his conduct when he does not get his way, and should be mocked accordingly by the peanut gallery at large if it has any semblance of independent thought or humor (tongue-in-cheek, please don't lynch me mighty peanuts). This is the example I sought to set by labelling 'The Assassination....' as setting an example, this is the person you continue to prop up.

[quote name='Yawoo' timestamp='1358279609' post='3077074'] Requesting an auto in the African war. Last IC post by the opposition was on [b]December 14[/b]. It is now [b]January 15[/b]. It is completely unreasonable that, as the defenders, we are supposed to wait [u]over a month[/u]. We keep hearing how posts have been readied for weeks now (one needs only look above to see Mara's claim), but have yet to see any post in the war since [b]December 14[/b]. It is ridiculous to assume that it takes, again, [u]over a month[/u] to clear up OOC questions. For lack of a better term, the AUP has been stalling, plain and simple. We have an activity time of 25 days to ensure someone remains active in the CNRP community, why do we have to wait more than that time on a coalition which started the war? The defending party should not have to have their own RP stalled because the party that began the war refuses to post for a myriad of supposed reasons. Any questions or concerns could have been brought up and solved in December should the AUP actually have wanted them solved. We are now entering the mid-point on a new GM team, a team which granted a request for a neutral GM to rule on war requests. We have been assured by this neutral GM a post would be up on Saturday, January 12. It is now Tuesday, January 15 with still no post. This is ridiculous. [/quote] You've seen how the OOC thread has developed. Maybe if the 'defence' egged Triyun and Centurius on to be more forthcoming in the OOC thread as much as it seems to want to place the blame on solely Mara and myself here, we'd have a resolution. If we didn't have a case, you'd have had your auto already.

[quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1357956851' post='3075140'] EDIT: The actions under Operation Sulieman are by and large and extension of this war. While I disagree with the image of the Sulieman thread, I was convinced that the nature of the thread was okay. So, the land grab under Sulieman should resume under the war to solidify IC actions. Under a revision of Sulieman which will play out as this war resumes is as follows as I see it, this is not final yet:[list] [*]The inactive AUP players did collapse as per the 25 inactivity rule [*]The TSI and Company obtained first advantage of the nations collapse, and will fight to secure their hold in those countries as they move in. [*]AUP can contest TSI and Company actions on their fallen allies with counter actions; [b]however[/b], your forces have not auto-took control or moved of your former AUP allies territory. Realistic movement of forces to counter. [*]AUP bases in the fallen nations are fair game to the AUP to use; however, it does not imply any huge control of the fallen nations. It makes getting reinforcements from other areas easier, but it does not translate in full control of the contested areas. [*]The fallen nation's equipment has fallen into grave disrepair and is useless [*]All the above mentioned nations that fell are disputed territory pending the outcome of the war. [/list] [/quote] So are you merging the two threads together? I also recall an earlier edit that mentioned something along the lines of existing AU nations having more realistic chances at getting to the fallen nations closest to them or something before the TSI, why the sudden change to allow the TSI to have first dibs? I'm just curious at the reasoning behind this - the thread has already played out that our forces are 'responding' to the TSI landfalls by moving the forces that would normally be put in charge of securing the territory - we don't know they are grabbing the land just yet, so this ruling doesn't affect what we've posted already. I'm just curious. [quote name='Tanis777' timestamp='1357972557' post='3075317'] Continuing on to my preliminary findings and some ideas to toss out there. By all means, I would like some responses to help flesh this out. Lack of casualties: I would argue the lack of formal intelligence has made all posts with cruise missiles launches on any non-mobile facility in EM's or Mara's nation a bunch of rockets flying aimlessly through the sky. In more direct encounters, both sides have portrayed a lack of losses, yielding almost nothing to each side's supposed superiority. I would see why EM hasn't posted much about damages outside of direct encounters and dismissed nearly everyone else so far on damages on the most sensitive facilities. I will add that obvious targets that don't require a spy roll will need to have appropriate damages taken like ATCs, hangers and public government buildings. [/quote] Gotcha. [quote] Cent's metamaterials: For Cent's metamaterials on his aircraft. The technology exists; however, at this time there is no foreseeable advancement on them for stealth application. As I understand it, such materials would actually change the radar signal to 'heat'. While stealthy to radar, it's not to IR equipment. That would need to be changed to something more plausible. I would like hear the defense of it if possible. Terrus Regius is a heavily saturated airspace with so much radar, it's a miracle that any bombers are entering the airspace attacking anything else besides radar sites, and it's definitely not uni-directional, it's multi-spectrum and airborne. I'll come to that later. EDIT: In further discussion, Cent's and Triyun's are using carbon nanotechnology RAM for their aircraft. Which make this a moot point. [/quote] Cent directly referenced blacker than black material. [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1357014890' post='3070064'] VHF is highly effective yes, but you're ignoring one thing in your designs compared to real life applications. The range of mobile systems is simply not 1,800km. In the best configuration you can at most pull off 150. That is the downside of VHF, it runs well but its practical range is limited. So yes, in the end it defeated the stealth on the bombers, but not before they were within a realistic distance from the target. Onto the bombers themselves, the design of the very frame is made to both deal with heat and to minimize the rcs already. Additionally [b]darker-than-black metamtaerials[/b] have a much greater absorption rate than conventional stealth techniques across the em spectrum. While this greater absorption is more likely to increase the heat signature the airframe was intended to deal with heat. Basically the same systems used to prevent the plane from heating up during supersonic flight are used to prevent the airframa from heating up due to the radar sent at it. And as Tanis also explained it is unlikely that VHF and the other radar systems will even take them to that level. [/quote] Darker-than-black or blacker-than-black, Cent hasn't publicly proven that his material is capable of hiding itself from multiple incoming sources of radiation - a multi-static ground and air overlap and fly so close to those systems in order to drop bombs and run away to Malta with minimal casualties. Allowing him to back peddle and say 'oh, not blacker-than-black, just carbon nanotech!' and getting away from flying this kind of sortie virtually unscathed basically invalidates any chance of anyone (not just myself, or my 'side', but anyone on the boards) from detecting his planes ever in any war present or future. No other scenario would come closer to routing an attack by these bombers than the one you seem to be dismissing. PS: This is assuming what you said means that Cent's clean attack and getaway stays the way it is. If not, I apologize for misunderstanding, [quote] Mara's response to Germany: Another point of contention was that post. With her Gen 5+++ [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=108972&st=320#entry2992480"]Grey Windows[/url] being on par with the [url="http://forums.cybernations.net/index.php?showtopic=90393&#entry2410618"]Lu-69 fighter[/url]. I know she hints at her pliot's training, but I know Germany has been around the block several times in recent times, regardless. Germany's plane should be more maneuverable than the Grey Windows, and having more losses associated with the fight. I'm not saying that the Lu-69 isn't detectable, but in the airspace with plenty of radar coverage, stealth will be less effective as you linger about. More damages/destruction of Grey Windows need to be mentioned, while incurring some strikes against the Lu-69. [/quote] I'll remind everyone that i've got similar AA in the form of the 3rd Rocket Forces and Artillery Division I believe helping Mara out on the lower left flank of Gloval. To be frank, hinting at maneuverability wouldn't be anything more than fluff to make one side or the other feel better about themselves - what with the strong BVR combat elements on both sides of this potential skirmish. From the looks of it, I'd reckon the reason Mara isn't posting losses is because the battle hasn't started just yet. I see a lot of 'woulds' that, to me, would be Mara letting Malatose know what would be in place once his aircraft reached the area. I believe my own surface to air shot at him as well on her side. Of course there would be casualties on both sides, I just think that due to the small amount of exchanges between sides, the fight is just about to start in the next round of posts. [quote] Indian Ocean Theater: Figuring out where the hell everyone was indeed taxing effort. While there was a build up of naval force by Tianixa in the Indian Ocean, EM did not do any significant intelligence gathering in the preclude to war. While Triyun gave me his usual, "this is logical and realistic" speech, I needed it to be down to simpler reasons, even as I understood. While we agreed to disagree on what Athens' most influential relationship was, I knew that EM's fleet was in a jam. While Tianxia and nearby allies of Persia, Vietnam and Selenactos populated the Indian Ocean, nobody had declared on one another yet. I don't count Impy's fleet since it is still enroute. I contend that the idea of hiding in commercial sea routes just invites more successful intelligence intercept of possible naval building via space imagery. Yes, the intel guys would hate their lives, it's their jobs. The Indian Ocean is of much IC interest of Tianxia, Persia, and Aeon. Such a buildup would never go unnoticed by a competent nation such as Aeon. Although it was always implied, that is rarely enough anymore. As everybody seemingly has Isr sats and Oth b radar, how can the radar tell from the commercial clutter of both fleets? That opportunity passed as Tianxia announced their entry into the war and promptly opened fire. First strike belongs to Triyun; however, EM does have a shot to fire back during tail end of the strike as it closes in. This can later be confirmed by a late confirmation of satellite imagery of the Coalition's fleet, allowing for easier believable of retaliation. I know there was some issues with a UAV that had a radar with a 400km, something unheard of in a UAV platform, something only comparable to the E-3 Sentry AWACS and it's big radar dome. However, that was not the point, since his AWACS wasn't for detecting ships but visual intel gathering UAVs like the Global Hawk were being used. Another oversight is seeing things like sticking an AWACS platform on a B-2 frame without the hideous dome. Being this the longest part of this evening's discussion, I'm sure I left out something. I'll post more later. Once again, the more information I have, the sooner this whole thing can keep going. [/quote] I argue the fact that Triyun's first post in the war against me consisted of a speech and shooting. He did just as little intelligence gathering precluding to his attack on my fleet, all of it is implied just as you say mine is. I was only able to drag out of him what he used to find my fleet and identify it after a long discussion in this thread, completely OOC. The same issue I had with his side shooting before looking applies here as well. How does a failure to recon sensitive stationary/mobile sites result in a shoddy attack, and have the same logic applied to his naval attacks as a success? Yes, I have no issue with my fleet being in a jam. But he hasn't RPed (from what we see in the war and much like the allies of his you dealt with in your first assessment) of sending his UAVs (my navy has an air cap and long range patrol to look for things like that, specifically mentioning them in my original deployment post). I also question the logic of using the commercial sea routes tactic to shield his fleet while barring any intelligence snarling of the sort on my end. You ask how my OTH-B, sats or radar can discern his ships from civilians? How can he do the same to me with no issue? Or at least without me noticing (given that my navy has taken pains to ensure the only reliable way he can observe my ships [UAVS] without being detected is covered). [img]http://wherepoliticsstops.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/wired-shipping-routes.gif[/img] [img]http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/61687000/jpg/_61687893_61687892.jpg[/img] But that is assuming this is a 'tactic' or 'mechanism' that should be allowed in CNRP. I asked Triyun (A seasoned veteran of the GM's court) to give me any indication at all that this sort of logic was ever implemented in any war CNRP has ever had. He has either ignored or cannot come up with a response to this request. I apologize, but I would ask this of you Tanis - heck, anyone for that matter. Using this against what would otherwise be a hard target for him to engage without taking comparable losses is a cop out if I ever saw one. [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1358026279' post='3075598'] In regards to intelligence gathering its a mix, of surface based, space based, and aerial based gathering systems. AWACs wouldn't be the primary means of ship detection. As previously argued, if your deploying out a fleet from Aeon the only way to move it to former Arctica waters is through areas which would be covered by OTH radar. This could be used in concert with space based intelligence of ports (ship was there now its not), and OTH radar to track movements. OTH radar alone could detect ship movements (though OTHs abilities by itself are actually pretty unrealiable for ship tracking) but it could not positively identify movements, however very high flying UAVs operating outside anyones territorial air space could, as could space based ISR. [/quote] If you had actually made a post detailing these insights in the war in question, this discussion would have been a lot shorter. You did not post any such tracking RPs of the sort in the war thread - if you did, I must apologize, because I must be going blind. My navy has been on constant rotation, performing patrols of the lower half of Africa up to Waffle's previous territory, where he used to take over from there, before abruptly recieving orders to form up and prepare from an attack from the most likely source, the Indian. If you had been doing such a long and detailed analysis on my fleet movements (which you could not do uncontested due to my peace time policy of temporarily blinding/jamming satellites over my territory), you would have had reason to suspect they'd be heading back. Heck, using your commercial sea route logic, you might have thought my fleet was heading back by getting false returns on your OTH or sats from those civilian ships. [quote] I'd argue the effort is even more difficult than you portray though for Aeon to do the same, at least firing a comprehensive retaliatory attack (it could fire blind, at which point it'd risk hitting civilian ships [I'm thinking of the waste of ammo as much as the political costs]) or it could fire on a much more limited section of the fleet. This is because the Tianxia fleet has a lot more directions to come from and is operating through much more open waters, therefore its harder to track. Tianxia's forces would be moving with commercial shipping, but there is no real way to track on the open ocean the vast amount of naval forces you'd be dealing with. Yes it's possible to track maybe 2-3 carriers in a region, but its doubtful you could do the same for the sheer number we are talking about. Lets assume that you're doing target verification with a constellation of 30 imagery satellites (this is more than the US, the world's current global leader has) The satellites you use to have high resolution pics which can tell you the difference between a super tanker and a aircraft carrier only produce a very miopic view, so when it passes overhead it can really only take picture of the big blot, it can't then go and tell the difference between a destroyer and a large fishing trawler as well. So assuming you commit say 60% of these assets to the Indian Ocean theatre (don't forget they have war operations in the Atlantic as well), you're still dealing with a very limited number, and in order to keep track of moving ships, you'd have to put them all into the same orbital pathway. and you could not really monitor the vast vast areas of ocean that you'd need to really do this comprehensively. [/quote] And yet your satellites can perform the same duties against mine? I guess you are going to have to place your satellites, and those of your allies on the same track then if you want to find my fleet amongst the shipping passing through. Should be great to notice the increased traffic your side would need to place in orbit to check Africa's coasts - oh wait, you went straight into shooting with this information, assuming my nation would not notice your activities to find my navy. [quote] I do grant if EM deployed UAVs in his next post to monitor my territories he could improve that position, but he's not really done that yet. Something I posted before I entered the fight. [/quote] Ooh, the first indication of intelligence gathering before Triyun shoots. I apologize for asking so much from you up until this point, but please do us all a favor and link us. [quote] Edit: I'd also point out on the stealth, as has been argued very effectively by Cent, the radar he's using hasn't been used in long range context, and thus its unlikely that it'd be that effective at heating up a target in time for them to complete their mission. I'd also like to point out that in the case that this radar is at all phased array (the kind you'd need to actually direct enough energy on a specific aircraft) its not broad based. Its scanned. Phased array radars are a lot of very narrow pencil beams of energy which scan the horizon bringing back pings. If its not returning a ping you don't know to keep the energy on that target. So in the case of a stealth aircraft, it's very hard to imagine how then you would focus on a fast moving object which you have no idea was there all these different narrow area pencil beams in order to heat up the object. Further IR detection is passive, you need to notice it, its not an active measure which delivers an immediate return like radar. Even if you managed to heat up a target by some miracle you'd then be faced with the time it'd take to then identify the target as a positive adversary. You'd then have to give the order to engage it, and have the attacking unit carry out the order. Again I feel that there is not a positive account of [i]movement[/i] on the part of the AUP. It's very likely that a jet would be able to penetrate the sensor grid and deliver its ordinance before a retaliatory move could be done especially when you account for the short range of these sensors. [/quote] I already wrote off the 'heating up via VHF' bit off as being secondary (or being relegated to fluff status) early on in the thread. Cent has clearly not demonstrated that his aircraft can keep itself from giving a return to the many recievers ready and waiting for them, and a number of individuals question its effectiveness in the scenario I created. Heck, at this point we aren't even sure what kind of stealth technology Cent is using as he's been giving us mixed responses. The distant early warning systems I used to glean an inaccurate, initial ghost mark of Cent's aircraft at long range created a hitscan box that several cued radars from several sources began bombarding to achieve higher resolution for aircraft hits. By no account is any of the sensors I used in this scenario 'short ranged'. If I find some phantom that took that much effort to detect, hell yes I'm going to shoot at it. This constant harping of the chain of command has never applied to the TSI when it shot at LO targets during their wars. Usually it just spouted stuff about using their fighter's networked radar skins to create a multi-static radar net to defeat the stealth. My scenario is no different, and is ultimately a stronger application of their long used tactic. There's your additional information Tanis. Sorry for its volume.

I'm pretty sure Seychelles is also disputed. Also, what is T.P. on Eritrea? I personally made that a protectorate of the African Union.

[quote name='Biohazard' timestamp='1357897078' post='3074683'] Not in the slightest! But I was mostly quoting the spongebob movie. [/quote] I demand a link to the source of the quote and a video clip of the scene in question!

That's it. Forward these replies to Tanis.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1356988292' post='3069922'] I'm just going to address things generally. Your fleet is out to sea, which means its already moving towards the borders of international waters, extending beyond the default is generally something that needs to be RPed by Vedran. Thats something he never did. Therefore one can safely assume freedom of the seas is in effect. Unless you're just blockading every ship, I'm assuming the world is a fairly prosperous place which therefore means there has to be fairly heavy normal trade. This is especially true of super tankers that are beyond the SUEZMAX level for traveling from the Persian Gulf into the Atlantic. Therefore you have lots of radar 'pings' of ships the size (or in the future probably larger) than an aircraft carrier moving from the Persian Gulf, as well as other regions down through the Cape Good Hope and too the Western Hemisphere. It would be very difficult to say that these shipping lanes are deserted, or that they are restricted without significant RP. Therefore its not out of the realm of common sense as far as rules of the sea goes that you would have Tianxia vessels (who also operate in the Indian Ocean, to have some of their forward elements be there regularly, I do not claim that either you or I are entitled to a first strike in that region, but rather that its whomever seizes the initiative to strike first IC. In this case I did. It was something I was entitled to do, just as you could've hit Tianxia in any of your previous posts. I'd been redeploying since the end of the Colombian War and had said so, further I don't need your permission to station forces within my territory or its nearby waters without contest any more than you need mine to station in Ethiopia or Sudan. [/quote] This part contains so much winding that I'm afraid i've lost your point. 1) I've told you where my fleet is. Why should I have Vedran's permission to leave his waters? 2) What does some archaic piece of international law (in terms of CNRP's timeline) have to do with this? 3) You are actually telling me to consider international trade routes and random RPers' trade ships floating around? Why this sudden tilt to such inane realism? Point me to any case where a similar standard was placed on a CNRP war. Assuming your point with these neutral SUEXMAX vessels potentially cluttering up my radar returns from my ships, UAVs and AEWC&R is relevant at all in CNRP, how exactly does that not apply to your insta detection of my fleets? Why was this double standard not applied to yourself when you said you were monitoring my fleet from the Atlantic to its current position with your ISR sats and OTH radar? If you intend to say your forces are shielded by neutral container shippers, then mine would be as well. I have ISR and NAVSAT systems of my own, I also have coverage over the most probable location for your fleet (should they actually be 1,400 km away from my vessels) in the form of OTH-B radar from Dadaab. 4) I have never contested your right to a first strike, but you cannot tell me that my forces would be caught completely unawares. [quote] Next in regards to my air breather assets, not they aren't firing from 1400 kilometers, the tactical aviation is taking off from 1400 kilos, they are equipped with both internal and external armaments. The external armaments are fired at about 250 out, which is still well ahead of most radar systems ability to detect low RCS sections. The drones fly very high and get within 600 kilos range for surveillance, other stealthier ones fly lower and get closer 400 and closer, but have much better detection proof counter measures. All of these as moving objects would be very difficult to track especially without corresponding ground based radar, which you really don't when you're down in the lower Indian. I'm not really sure what you're objecting about. Because basically unless you assume that you eliminate the Clausewitz uncertainty principle from your units, and your sensors work perfectly and mine do not, you're the one who has a much much more difficult job of detecting my units rather than vice versa. My units are much smaller, more dispersed, and faster moving, and have better electromagnetic protection (compared to a ship). [/quote] So are they, or are they not firing from 1,400 km? Basic grammatical structure would indicate that you say they are. So are some firing from 1,400 kilometers and others taking off from 1,400 km and firing at 250 km out? I have air launched missiles that would have platforms already up in the air by the time of your attack that can hit from 3,000km, 1,850km and 1,200 km. I am not saying that I am detecting your stealth platforms out from 1,400 km to my navy or mainland. What I am saying is that just as you can strike from 1,400 km, [b]so can I[/b]. Furthermore, with your tactical aviation carrying external and internal armaments and my heavy presence of networked AEWC&R (armed AWACs) flying patrols from my fleet (as would be the norm for sea based airborne early warning) I doubt you can argue that your aircraft would reach 250 km without at least some indication of their presence being known. For the record, my Carriers, destroyers, cruisers and battleships use radars comparable to the SAMPSON system. My anti-air/missile force oriented corvettes use something akin to the AN/SPY-1k. While you can argue that an Aegis style AN/SPY-1k or SAMPSON shipborne radar would have trouble detecting your low RCS aircraft alone, they have the help of my AWACs. [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1357014890' post='3070064'] On the first part you really need to be more clear on that, I've double checked that post and the only stage where you rp'd the attack against my bombers was the two missiles each, I'm not making the mistake of ignoring the other systems. I need to actually know they fired before I even can ignore them. As for your second point, Tataouine is literally within 500km of not only a rp but also major rl base(Malta). That's not even counting the air patrols set up around the Mediterranean which brings the protective umbrella a lot closer. The bombers are very close to Athenian airspace and flying in contestes airspace which also takes me to the point of the radar. VHF is highly effective yes, but you're ignoring one thing in your designs compared to real life applications. The range of mobile systems is simply not 1,800km. In the best configuration you can at most pull off 150. That is the downside of VHF, it runs well but its practical range is limited. So yes, in the end it defeated the stealth on the bombers, but not before they were within a realistic distance from the target. Onto the bombers themselves, the design of the very frame is made to both deal with heat and to minimize the rcs already. Additionally darker-than-black metamtaerials have a much greater absorption rate than conventional stealth techniques across the em spectrum. While this greater absorption is more likely to increase the heat signature the airframe was intended to deal with heat. Basically the same systems used to prevent the plane from heating up during supersonic flight are used to prevent the airframa from heating up due to the radar sent at it. And as Tanis also explained it is unlikely that VHF and the other radar systems will even take them to that level. [/quote] [quote]While indeed the B-11 Bombers were fine and dandy aircraft, with years of Athenian warmongering behind their designs, these aircraft were attempting to penetrate an airspace with a considerable amount of radar coverage from both AEWC&R and ground based systems working in tandem. The approach to Tataouine was indeed a treacherous one, with valleys bordered with high cliffs on either sides of the two main approaches. But this was served as an intentional weakness, as the 33rd Armored Infantry Division was operating well within the 'nearly point of no return' radius of the 18th and 22nd Rocket Forces and Artillery Divisions' HSAM-II mobile batteries as they leap frogged into Terre Regius. Behind them, near the staging point of Nalut, laid the 18th and 22nd's HSAM-III batteries, who also had a shot at taking out the Athenian aircraft. Initial fire direction was provided by the theatre search and detect AESA VHF band 'Gelert' Radar working in tandem with the AEWC&R aircraft flying behind friendly lines. While the Gelert was primarily tasked with theatre overwatch for massed missile barrages its characteristics as an electronically steered long wavelength radar aided AUSF forces in detecting the intruders. With wavelengths in the order of a meter or more, the skin depth penetration of the induced electric surface current on the Athenian aircraft would begin to defeat the absorbent coatings via heat. In short, while the Athenian bombers would be stealthed for a duration of their flight, the sheer amount of radiation they were being bombarded with was serving as their undoing. A loose estimate of a location was created, and soon the hit box was being bombarded by battalion level-deployed Maera L-band radars. These radars, specifically designed to be operated in high ECM and clutter environments, would respond to the notice Gelert brought up, even as AEWC&R craft began attuning their own emissions on the hit box. Two missiles a piece would be fired at each B-11 from the rear guard of the Aeon positions, while mobile SHORAD units began searching for any incoming ordinance that managed to be dropped from the Athenian birds. [b]The Thrasher Gun/Missile Systems would share the work load of the defense with the Spangle-II mobile launchers. Intelligently programmed 42mm rounds would be fired in droves at the Athenian ordinance should the bombers survive the attacks from the 18th and 22nd RF&A Divisions, while the Spangle-II launchers would fire the aforementioned missiles, flying in at a range of mach 4 with both Electro-optical/Infrared seeking as well as active radar homing warheads.[/b][/quote] That is what I said in reference to your bombers. I recognize where the confusion occured. 42mm rounds were fired at the ordinance should your bombers survive the two missiles a piece from my SAMs based farther back. Spangle-II mobile launchers fired missiles at them. I left out specifics as to how many they fired, assuming you would consider them fired until destroyed, since they are quicker response weapons that would be cued until the threat to the 33rd Armored Infantry was destroyed either before, during or after attacking. I can edit my post if you like to make it totally clear, just as you will have to edit yours. I'm not saying all of them would be destroyed by the Spangle-IIs, but a lot more than the paltry sum you provided. 500 km is farther than the distance from Tataouine to my tactical SAMs further back, so I would get shots off at them from the HSAM-II and HSAM-III units on standby. You are well within the 'nearly point of no return' range of the 18th and 22nd RF&A's forward HSAM-II radar units. You are also in range of the HSAM-III radar units at Nalut. Gelert (more on this in a second) and my AEWC&R initially detected a loose location of your bombers, which cued all the aforementioned radars plus Maera towards that hit box to get better resolution. Even if I humored you and said that the Gelert is wiped because I made a mistake, you still have all the aforementioned radars to contend with, which you have to fly pretty close to in order to attack Tataouine. I'll give you that the Gelert and AEWC&R alone would probably not defeat your darker than black material (more on that later), but with everything else hitting that hitbox, I most definitely think so. Now, I want you to give me the source of that laughable 150 km number. I'll give you Almaz-Antey's numbers for the Nebo SVU that is NOT an export version. http://www.almaz-antey.ru/about/press/news/789.html If you want to say that the number is obviously inflated due to marketing or fearmongering, I want to see everyone that uses Meteorit or Kh-55 clones to drop their numbers significantly as well. [quote name='Kankou' timestamp='1357064333' post='3070171'] Darker-than-black metamtaerial has been known to not be applicable to high-speed aircraft for the foreseeable future due to thickness/heat retention/weight issues, as the developer himself acknowledges. Furthermore, I still have not received any answer to the question on the contradition of "being able to keep heat without releasing any" which is basically BS from any scientific POV. Please write how the airframe is able to do that, since I have no knowledge of any developments within military tech or regular science that is able to overcome such an impossibility. You know, I would like at least answers to inquiries from more than half an year ago instead of the constant ignoring. [/quote] Now that you specifically mention that darker-than-black is so good that it can handle all of the radars i've thrown at it, I'd like a source to this amazing capability. [quote name='Zoot Zoot' timestamp='1357070289' post='3070212'] Aye, if you guys wouldn't mind. Stop elaborating in big walls of text how your stuff works, and please post links to the threads and posts which outline the roleplay and development of the items in question. This is directed towards the anti AUP coalition. [/quote] Which I assume is what Zoot was asking here. Just because he isn't a GM now does not invalidate this request. You people do not get to wait until GMs partial to you are placed in power so you can ignore present GM's questions (no offense to you Cent this is directed at people in general). [quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1357707301' post='3073070'] If you don't want the war on the back burner, I assume you have no problem with us autoing. Further: Its a missile, we gave you the stats, they were built over posts over 4 years. You have all the info you need. Its never been a standard before to have to dumpster dive the development which have been done over many posts, when its been used in many many RPs prior. You have the info you need, if you need more make a list like Shammy suggested. If the current GM team has a request I'll listen. [/quote] I've had to dig through websites in other languages to give you the links needed in this discussion. I've had to do a forum search on my own name so that you guys wouldn't need to. Acting petulant like this does nothing to smooth or expedite the course of this war. [quote name='iKrolm' timestamp='1357709882' post='3073101'] Presumably Tianxia, [i]being the strong military power that they are[/i], built some airbases during the years they owned the Arabian Peninsula. If not, then the SAF took over a civilian airport for the war. Selenarctos didn't launch any ground-based missiles. My military Googled for them. Did you know the Pentagon lists its address on its homepage? And that Wikipedia lists GPS coordinates for the fifty largest Air Force Bases in the US? Unless Africa is suddenly North Korea, you're nitpicking details with these lists. Go write how some insignificant buildings were destroyed now or something... [/quote] What does the first line do besides debase yourself? You've referenced Triyun like this previously, I'm confused as to what you hope to get at with this? I never said you launched ground based missiles. What the US does in its spare time does not concern my nation. Man up and perform reconnaissance RPs to get these sensitive locations, or get Triyun to do it for you with his '[i]half a million troops in Arabia'[/i] if you don't want to. Africa has, and always has been NK, Iran and <insert other axis of evil state here>. Your allies have performed reconnaissance attacks on nations much less sophisticated and smaller than mine. If you do not want to have your attack results be RPed as ineffective as they would be without proper intelligence, continue to do this.

There are a lot of unanswered questions. Zoot requested something while he was a GM, it should still be honored. I won't have this war go on the backburner to Sulieman.

[quote name='Vidarr the Terrible' timestamp='1357666423' post='3072866'] I will do the markings for the Caucasus when I get home, and I'll mark those protectorates as disputed when there is legitimate IC evidence for me to do so. For now I haven't seen any IC posts leading me to believe it will be disputed. You don't need to post in here letting me know intent, this is for map change requests, [u][b]period[/b][/u]. [/quote] Yeah, and it was a polite notice so you would not waste your time marking them as undisputed protectorates. You can go ahead and make the change now if its not too much to ask.

[quote name='Triyun' timestamp='1357421903' post='3071748'] With electromagnetic intelligence indicating a failure of governments to continue broadcasting in the Horn of Africa and the Seychelle Islands Tianxia special operations units began mobilizing for the major landings in the area. Overhead satellite imagery indicated the entirety of the nations of Arctica, Outer Heaven, and People's Republic of Africa had fallen into disrepair. Fast landing craft darted across the Red Sea, between Arabia and Somolia, landing Marine Expeditionary Forces teams in the towns of Berbera and Xees to rapidly dig in and hold the towns as beach heads. Meanwhile Special Operations forces began flying below radar low altitude drops on the Northern most Seychelle Islands to clear the way for further offensives. [/quote] Using a mix of the OTH-B radars stationed at COMbined FORces Command (COMFOR) bases at Jimma and Dadaab, as well as the repurposed Nodic DEW site stationed at Dire Dawa to establish an initial air coverage over Outer Haven, and relying on the 4th, 14th and 20th Rocket Forces and Artillery Divisions already stationed at the border with the threatened nation, as well as numerous Airborne Early Warning, Control & Response (AEWC&R) crafts patrolling Eastern Aeon, the 26th through 31st Mechanized Infantry, supported by the 8th through 15th Armored Infantry Divisions would began a quick push east to Somalia. While the fast landing craft (OOC: Dinghy boats? Please correct if I am mistaken) were not detected just yet, the Aeon infantry would begin the long march to both Mogadishu and Bosaso. It was imperative that Somalia did not fall into enemy hands - while the Aeon did not know it yet, forces at play had already, or were immediately infilitrating Somalia as the forces rolled in, under the cover of a squadron of AEWC&R scrambled from Adahunat Airbase, as well as two A-1 Krieg Fast Close Air Support craft squadrons following and eventually overtaking them at speeds of Mach 3. Several airborne refueling aircraft would also be deployed from the hardened location. Fighter squadrons patrolling the East would be placed on standby, ready to move east if the enemy presented an airborne threat. [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1357422647' post='3071751'] News of the collapse of the African governments came as quite a surprise to the Athenian Federation, it was plainly clear that the African offensive had caused such a response that the people could no longer live with their governments. It was decided in this context that the Athenian Federation needed to respond to this humanitarian disaster developing. A Corps on the northern border between Egypt and Libya would be the first force to step in, reports had shown that the once heavily defended PRA had reverted to a pre-modern state. Defenses were rusted beyond repair and those that weren’t physically destroyed had become useless. The costs of failing government. Three divisions would begin moving for the Eastern cities of Tubruq, Benghazi and Ajdabiya among others. Another division would push for Sirte while the final one moved for a more general position in central Africa. These forces would enjoy significant air support from Maltese and Egyptian airbases that were able to continuously ensure fighter patrols. [/quote] [quote name='JEDCJT' timestamp='1357425745' post='3071782'] [b]Actions:[/b] In conjunction with their Athenian counterparts, the Hispanic Guard (HG) would leap into action. Elements of the Thirteenth Division stationed in northern Egypt would move into eastern Libya; four divisions (40,000) would help to secure the cities of Benghazi, Tubruq, and Ajdabiya, and Sirte. Several squadrons of F-5s would fly overhead to provide aerial protection for the ground forces. [color=#000000][/quote][/color] Protectorate forces found in the Eastern portions of the Libyan/Algerian zone would be tapped as a stopgap measure aimed at halting the Athenian and Hispanic counter invasion from Western Egypt. Resources from the push from the south of Egypt would be rerouted to the new hotzone, while additional forces from the homeland would be called in as replacements. To this end, the 13th and 14th Heavy Tank Divisions stationed at the Murzuq, Awbari and Sabha triangle along with units of the 15th Rocket Forces and Artillery Division would move to meet the invaders head on. Fate would have them eventually pushing East to Hun and Waddan. The 26th through 28th Mechanized Infantry and the 10th and 12th Air Assault Divisions making up the protectorate forces of Libya would rally from the Northern proctorate cities of Garyan, Bani Waleed and Mizdah, moving south east with elements of the 10th Rocket Forces and Artillery Division to create a Forward Operating Base at Al Qaddahiya, west of Sirte. Forward drone and airborne reconaissance would be sent at Corps level, with Black Mambas and drones concentrating their efforts on Sirte for the time being. Five squadrons of Cormorant and Recluse bombers would be flown in from Tamenrasset to assist at a stand off level once a threat assessment was made. Anti-satellite attacks in the form of the Cruor and Augoror air launched and TEL/silo launched units would continue. Rapid response and force reconaissance provided by the Mechanized divisions would move to create a sensor picket facing eastwards, prefacing the movement of heavier forces to the region. From COMFOR- bases El Obeid and Nyala, several divisions belonging to the Armored Infantry would be prepared for an airborne and LAPES parachute deployment over Fada, Faya-Largeau Airbase. Aiming to place themselves in the valley south east of Emi Koussi, they would be backed by the deployment of several Bestower Ultra Heavy Transports bearing the brunt of a Rocket Forces and Artillery detachment. Aimed to hold the narrow pass between mountains that the Athenian push towards central Africa would need to cross, these divisions would hopefully hold the line long enough for the 34th and 35th Heavy Tank Divisions making their way slowly from Sudan. The hasty deployment would be prefaced by an airborne drop of the 14th HALO/HAHO Paradrop Divisions, which would perform the initial preparation duties and force reconnaissance with the 17th Air Assault Division. [quote name='Centurius' timestamp='1357422647' post='3071751'] In another development special forces would be moved into Dakar and Noukachott to establish control over vital infrastructure that would later on be needed once the greater push happened. [/quote] [quote name='JEDCJT' timestamp='1357425745' post='3071782'] Further south, a division of the Thirteenth Army (what else?) would deploy from the Cape Verde into Marituania, moving into the cities of Dakar and Noukachott. Furthermore, several brigades would deploy to Sierra Leone and Liberia under the cover of F-5s, focusing on Freetown and Monrovia for the time being. The HG would be on high alert the whole time, keeping a vigilant eye for any possible enemy actions and counterattacks. As with their Athenian counterparts, Hispanian land and air based missile platforms would be ready to engage the enemy at a moment's notice. [/quote] If the Athenians and Hispanics flew from the Athenian conclave in North Africa, they would be met with the stationary and mobile surface to air defenses of the multinational protectorate forces in the region. If they sailed, however, an entirely different story would emerge all together. With the 1st and 2nd Fleets of the Aviatrice within striking distance of Dakar off the coast of Guinea Bisseau, landing crafts would be attacked by both carrier battlegroup's complements of Cormorant and AN-1 Krieg strike crafts. The air superiority complements onboard along with the AEWC&R craft on stage performing patrols would move to establish air dominance over the contested ports. Four squadrons of AN-1 would fly in at speeds approaching Mach 3, launching the Eviscerator Air Launched Anti-ship Ballistic Missile (AL-AshBM) from 400 km out. A total of 144 of these potent missiles would fly in at both top down and depressed ballistic trajectories in a bid to maximize the number of attack vectors defenders would need to cover. Flying inwards like supersonic dive bombers, the crafts would launch a total of 144 Punisher TAMs. Cormorants maritime strike bombers would linger back amongst allied shipping and behind airborne patrols to launch standoff attacks coinciding with the daring strikes made by the Kriegs. The squadron of Cormorants would be in the air, each armed with four Trident Air-launched multi-purpose ballistic missiles (ALM-BM) and other stand-off munitions. Starting the staggered and co-ordinated attacks, each Cormorant would release a total of five Providence StrateGic Assault Missiles (GAM) from internal rotary bays. These missiles would fly in from distances of 3,000 km using inertial navigation, only making their stealthy frames known once they switched to active radar homing and focal plane electro-optical detection. Each missile would separate into two independent payloads, doubling the kill potential of the first stealthy strike. From each aircraft, a total of four Tridents would be fired from roughly 2,000 km out. Fired from underslung, purposefully sheathed disposably pylons, each of the 48 missiles would contain five 200 kg multiple independently-targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRV) targeted for either the enemy shipping in the vicinity of Dakar and Noukachott, or the transport crafts already at port. Each warhead would use a mix of fuzed sensors, to reduce the chances of enemy counter measures being employed successfully. With the MIRVs being designed with the evasion of enemy anti-ballistic missile defense capability in mind, each warhead would sail down towards its target, their single piece, multi-layered heat ablative construction would serve to disperse the energies of enemy laser-based defenses like no missile ever was ever thought possible. A total of 240 of these submunitions would eventually rain down on their collective targets. Of course, these attacks were hypothetical. Any attempt at sailing to Dakar and Nouchott would need to survive the Aeon submarine forces covering the approach from the opening of the Straight of Gibraltar to the mid atlantic. These submarines, organized in hunter killer packs in the form of SSN and SSGN units patroling closest to the Western Saharan protectorate waters would listen to the acoustic signatures of enemy shipping as they made their way down towards Noukachott. In the case of the forces arriving from Cape Verde, a similar presence would be felt. Subs from H&K groups Alpha, Beta and Gamma would provide attacks with the Heavy-sub launched AshM from a range of 290 km using fire and forget modes (active radar and EO/IR). Such attacks would occur with the vessels completely submerged, and each vessel would have its anti-torpedo/de-mining ROV units out in an attempt to preserve their hosts from retaliatory strikes. Farther back, SSBN and SSBGN units would provide a stand-off anti-ship ballistic missile attack once air elements and AEWC&R craft had positively identified the targets. Launching in coordination with the air attacks, the Hades SLBM launched for anti-ship duties would be fired. With targeting data provided by allied uplink, these strikes would further hamper and destroy enemy vessels as they contended with the ordinance already being fired, as well a number being directed to any ground forces that would make it to the shores. [quote name='Curristan' timestamp='1357423133' post='3071754'] The Persian Empire would rush to join the Humanitarian Efforts. The Imperial Persian Military would immediately send the 1st and 2nd Parachute Division to the Seychelles to establish a Provincial Government. C-17ER Globemaster III Strategic Airlifter Aircraft would land at Seychelles International Airport near Victoria on Mahe island, with parachute drops on the other islands. The Persian Imperial Navy would send a small fleet to provide naval security, made up of Two Sword Class Cruisers, Five Defender Class Destroyers, One Xia Class Battleship and the Persia Class Aircraft Carrier INS Persia. This fleet would stay anchored just off Frigate Island, with INS Persia's aircraft providing local air security. In Victoria a Governor would be appointed and Humanitarian Aid distributed to the population. More food to sustain the islands would be rushed to the island as soon as possible. [/quote] Flying out of Aeon airbases, 5 squadrons of A-1 Krieg Fast Close Air Support Crafts, with 1 squadron being equipped to act as a high speed force reconnaissance would fly west to Seychelles to either discover enemy incursions there or report back that the islands were still African. Orders stood to relay enemy positions to allied bombers further west, and engage enemy ships that stood as targets of opportunity. Flying in at Mach 3, they would be the first responders to the Persian invasion. Regardless of the results of these force reconnaissance missions, the Principality would undergo a massive anti-satellite campaign aimed at continuously attacking enemy satellites as they flew over Africa. Using both squadrons of Deathstalkers armed with the Cruor air launched ASAT, or mobile TEL and silo based Augoror ASATs they would target LEO imaging and naval search infrastructure in space. The debut of the Sternbild heavy rocket, repurposed for the task of MEO target interdiction would begin, with launch facilities being given the go ahead to fire 50 over the course of several missions. Armed with active radar and thermal imaging, these ultra-heavy boosters would target MEO and more esoteric weapons like space-battleships.

The latest spate of African protectorates will most definitely be disputed.