Bower3aj

[quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149'] 1) The member accessed went and nuclear rogued Veneke shortly after being confronted with the evidence; the member from what I understand went rogue before anything was actually done to him by GLOF (if that's incorrect then please feel free to correct me; this still would leave enough mitigating circumstances for my point). [/quote] He was asked to leave the alliance and was shown what Veneke gave us. He said that Veneke had lied to us but had no way of proving it. So he left since he saw that he couldn't defend himself and attacked Veneke for lying to get him expelled from the alliance. [quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149'] 2) The plot involved one person who at the time of the incident wasn't even in GLOF (due to having been expelled), which means... [/quote] Again, he was expelled due to the incident. [quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149'] 3) There was no immediate threat to the security of GLOF. [/quote] It means that he was expelled from the alliance based off of a lie, which would mean that forcing his expulsion would have been not a threat to our alliance, but an aggressive act already committed against our alliance. [quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149'] 4) There was no real attempt made to try and get an explanation or conduct any form of real diplomacy with the government of the 57th Overlanders. The "attempt" at diplomacy was done over a few hours at most [/quote] ok [quote name='Jyrinx' date='17 February 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1266446177' post='2188149'] 5) GLOF had an MDoAP with 57th with a binding cancellation and non-aggression clause, both of which were violated when there was no pressing reason to do so. [/quote] both of which were violated when we were lied to for the purpose of ZIing a member. That is an aggressive act. Whether or not you believe the SSs to be fake, we believe them to be. Which means that according to our beliefs our actions are justified. Either way though, this matter is closed. We kept our word. That word being that we would give the 57th peace when they either admitted their wrongs or were bloodied enough. Veneke took that as a threat of Eternal war. Clearly, that was not the case and any that believed so were naive.

I don't even know why the screen shot of Veneke's post is being talked about. It's not our CB. The screen shot with the IP addresses is.

[quote name='NoFish' date='15 February 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1266289773' post='2184129'] You know, come to think of it, it's [i]awfully[/i] convenient that GLoF somehow managed to stay out of a war when almost every one of their allies was involved in it. Almost as though they intentionally kept themselves unoccupied in case something came up. Now, unlike certain alliances, I'm not one to toss accusations without evidence... but it certainly makes you think, huh? [/quote] Really? How bout no. We were neutral to start. All of AZTEC was. As soon as an AZTEC member broke that neutrality we promised our support to the original allies that asked for our help. That ally was not the 57th. Just because our allies were never countered doesn't meant that we were not sitting there ready to go in to defend them. This is the second clear attempt at grasping for air that I've seen in this conversation.

[quote name='Gopherbashi' date='15 February 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1266285925' post='2183945'] You declared war on your own ally because they gave you a faked screenshot? Because I've only got one FOK guy on me right now, and I'd love some more opponents. We can quickly sign a treaty and I'll draw up something in paint and send it to you within the hour. [/quote] I'll admit I laughed. More because you would want to fight the Lodge again after Karma then anything else. But still, thanks for putting a smile on my face

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 08:57 PM' timestamp='1266285424' post='2183927'] So you declared war on your MDP partner over a possibly faked screenshot regarding an individual that went rogue anyway? Wow, that's actually [i]so[/i] much more reasonable. [/quote] you realize that when shown that you're wrong the only thing you could come up with ammounts to nothing more than "lol, my argument fell apart so... no u." The individual went rogue because Veneke lied to get him kicked out of an alliance. Notice that when he went rogue the only person he went rogue on was the person that lied to get him kicked out of the Lodge. Do you honestly expect me to believe that you, Chron, would not do the same if somebody lied and got you kicked out of an alliance, and you were in range of that person?

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 08:32 PM' timestamp='1266283934' post='2183855'] the other set (which you *are* basing your DoW on) have been shown to be blatantly fake. [/quote] And see this is just where you are blatantly wrong. But really, if you really refuse to accept that this isn't the case then I would be happy to point out the literally dozens of times where we say over and over again that our DoW is the Screen Shots given to us by Veneke, not the Screen Shot of an alleged Veneke post. Accept it or I seriously will go and find every single example posted in this announcement, in our announcement, and in the peace talk logs that show that this is what we have said [u][b][i]the entire time[/i][/b][/u].

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 07:48 PM' timestamp='1266281319' post='2183760'] This isn't a matter of "friends parting" but one in which a friend hears a completely unfounded accusation from someone else, then turns around and stabs their friend in the back while the police are distracted by a bank robbery. It's kind of horrible, to be honest. [/quote] yes because having a forged screen shot given to us by our ally and acting on it is totally being opportunistic. Rather, perhaps you should know that even if the world was at peace we would have declared war. We are no cowards, no matter how much you'd like to suggest that we are.

[quote name='Chron' date='15 February 2010 - 07:37 PM' timestamp='1266280675' post='2183735'] No it doesn't, it's just him acknowledging the reality that neither party will budge. "Your position" is one which you made yourselves, you're no victim. Trying to play that card is a damn joke. [/quote] And people who will both not budge when they have conflicting ideas is not them being stubborn how? and yes, declaring war probably did put us in the position of being in war. Good observation. and when did I play the victim card?

[quote name='Leigon' date='15 February 2010 - 07:23 PM' timestamp='1266279809' post='2183702'] You're fighting a war against your MDoAP partner, ended the already existing ceasefire and it doesn't look like you were ready to concede anymore. Those talks were already finished unless Veneke admits to something which he seemingly didn't want to. What did you exspect them to do? Sit there and take the punishment? Not being able to fight back properly at the moment leaves going public as the most promising way to react. I'd have done the same. I gotta agree that Thunderstrike did a fantastic job though. I really don't know how he reached that ceasefire the first day. I guess everyone was getting tired. edit: Also what Chron said. Now look what you've done. You've made me agree with Chron. [/quote] I'd like to also point out that Thunderstrike while doing his fantastic job said something that everybody here is skipping over. [quote]21:43 Ven|afk Thunder, do you believe my proposal to be reasonable? 21:44 ThunderStrike I can't see it being one that GLOF will be willing to accept. 21:44 ThunderStrike Regardless of who is right or wrong here neither of you are going to back down from your arguements.[/quote] the first line he says tells Ven that he already knows that an alliance in our position would not accept the terms Ven suggests. The second shows he knows that both Ven and Penedono are stubborn. And just so nobody says "well ThunderSrike clearly thinks that Ven's right" [quote]21:44 ThunderStrike And there really is no conclusive proof as to who is right.[/quote] but in all, he has done a great job thus far. I wouldn't have gone to the boards. If I had such a good moderator working the talks I would let them keep working their magic. But it seems like every time ThunderStrike tried to move the peace talks along with discussing the terms Ven jumped in and accused the Lodge of trying to E-war them or some other ludicrous accusation. I can't blame Penedono for getting frustrated after an hour of that.

[quote name='Chimaera' date='15 February 2010 - 07:11 PM' timestamp='1266279090' post='2183673'] Actually, yes, I can justify this announcement. I'm not one of the 10,000 mindless fools who hail along party lines. I legitimately think your alliance was in the wrong and should burn for the treason you've committed. [/quote] Again, you think I'm talking about something that I'm not. I don't know how to make my post any clearer so perhaps I should just stop trying to make you see what I am actually seeing. But, I'll give it one more shot. I'm not saying that you're hailing them or rather booing us for our actions is wrong. I'm saying you hailing them for breaking the well established principle that you don't log dump peace talks. It only hurts the peace process. So if you really think the 57th don't deserve this war, there is no reason for anybody to be hailing this announcement. It doesn't help peace get established. It only draws attention to try to put diplomatic pressure on the other alliance, which is never appreciated by the other alliance and really is just ridiculous when you can now see in the peace talks, since Ven dumped them, that Penedono doesn't care what those [OOC] on these boards [/OOC] think.

[quote name='Chimaera' date='15 February 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1266277184' post='2183618'] I could be wrong, but I think we'd rather hail Veneke's actions than GLoF attacking their allies under false pretenses. [/quote] I'm not asking you to hail our actions. I'm asking for some sense that people actually [i]believe[/i] what they say here. But you probably didn't actually understand me. Go over it again, and then see if you can actually justify this announcement. If you believe we are wrong, that's fine, I don't care. But don't hail an action that is wrong because you think that the other party is wrong on another matter.

[quote name='Veneke' date='15 February 2010 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1266267518' post='2183419'] As many people will be aware, I'm not keen on mediator's, but Thunderstrike in this has been amazing. I had to admit I was kinda nervous when he said that this was his first time mediating, but by all accounts he made a very good showing of himself considering the situation. o/ Thunder Strike [/quote] Ven you're lucky. I'm pretty sure I've seen most of the people that are hailing you and believing your word cry foul when people they don't like did this exact same thing. Since when has it been OK to log dump peace talks? Thunderstike was doing a fantastic job. I doubt that will matter as you've circumvented the talks themselves and are appealing to what are essentially the unwashed masses (I mean it only as the saying). To you, the unwashed masses, since when do you hail such actions as this thread? In every instance that an alliance has log dumped peace talks they are never lifted up as righteous and honorable. But here you are, finding no fault for disrupting peace by trying to use the talks as political leverage. Have your opinions actually changed or do you have no real beliefs? Do you base what you say only off of who did something or says something? For shame to all of you, and for shame to you Veneke for being willing to sacrifice peace talks so you can puff out your chest.

[quote name='astronaut jones' date='14 February 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1266202012' post='2181947'] He's everyone's little brother. They think it's adorable, let him have it, they don't take him seriously behind the scenes. [/quote] I find it funny that instead of letting the other guy prove your point you again strive to have the last word only proving Penkala's point.

as I said, not my evidence to give out. Perhaps you should re-read it. Perhaps you'd like to respond to my first response of you as well. or were you just going to skip over the part that you were wrong?

[quote name='JWConner' date='14 February 2010 - 07:29 PM' timestamp='1266193780' post='2181612'] You talk about this evidence you have, about it being undeniable, yet it's completely deniable. The fact that someone forged documents to cause an ally of the 57th to drop their friendship and treaty and declare war on them should raise a few flags. You can claim this evidence is solid proof, but there's no such thing. None. The only true facts of this matter are that you believed that your supposed friends/allies would spy on you and that you didn't wait til you could speak with said ally before attacking. Everything else is speculation, no matter what your supposed experts have told you. You acted rash, you acted out of line, and you deserve the punishment that you have dished out to 57th. GLoF has shown themselves to act on emotions instead of intelligence. That's a horrible cycle to start. [/quote] Perhaps you should look back at what I said. There is other things that exist in the world out side of the three images on our forums. Open to the public. They were not part of this DoW, but there are things out there that show Ven is at least willing to consider spying on an ally. Something tarman said wouldn't happen. But it has happened before. It's not an impossible concept for Ven to think of. He's thought of doing it before, those that he said it to essentially responded with a message of you're crazy and there's no reason to even think about doing that. But Ven merely laughed off the criticism. [quote name='Veneke' date='14 February 2010 - 07:31 PM' timestamp='1266193871' post='2181617'] Penedono said the same thing, and the fact of the matter is that the screenshot you were given is extremely relevant to the discussions at hand. In the first instance, it was faked, and in the second instance whomever supplied that screenshot to you is manipulating you. Quite clearly because of its faked nature (I'll deal with the first screenshot momentarily) and what they probably expected to happen when they gave that screenshot to you. A deterioration of relations between the 57th and GLOF. They've managed to achieve their aim in that regard. [/quote] again, if you're SSs are just a case of a jpeg appearing shopped only around the important part of the information in some cosmic coincidence then [i]you[/i] should be the one worried about your own ranks trying to get you rolled. But I don't believe that something with near impossible odds happened here. Apparently, there are some in the CN community that believe that something with such ridiculous odds happened here. But forgive me if I'm not so quick to jump to the conclusion that the improbably is the case.

believe what you will. I could care less if you believe me. The undeniable evidence exists on that point, but it's not mine to give out. So if you don't believe me I don't care, it could come back to bite you, or it could not. You roll your own dice.

[quote name='tarman2010' date='14 February 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1266191197' post='2181519'] Perhaps you don't know Veneke as well as you claim to... [/quote] Perhaps, but when I'm shown previous occasions of him discussing spying on allies I tend to think that I know him better

[quote name='Veneke' date='14 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1266187445' post='2181411'] The internal procedures of the 57th at the time of the signing of the treaty had the second in command in charge of internal, and not external, affairs. I was rather more busy setting up trade rings, recruitment, activity, education and so on rather than with talking to our allies, mainly because Mechanus had taken that up as his area of expertise. It also made more sense for him to do so, due to the nature of the command structure in the 57th. I personally prefer dealing with people inside my alliance, because those are my crew (That's a Firefly reference, if you don't get it, don't comment on it). It's a personal preference of mine, and one that, back then, I didn't have to overly concern myself about. I never once saw Mechanus work on any trade ring, education system, or anything of the like, so nor did I go into his realm of affairs, and that was just the way it was done. Same thing can be said for the Quartermaster, the two of us stayed away from the military, and gave him a free rein. That was how the government was run under Mechanus. It's changed somewhat since. [/quote] A reasonable answer, though I wasn't holding it against you at all. Just merely pointing out to JW that a member of the lodge knowing you on an intimate level is a fool hearted argument to make. It's nothing against you. [quote name='Veneke' date='14 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1266187445' post='2181411'] I'm curious, when ye went talking to these career designers, did they check that image that ye were given? Amateurs and career blokes alike have spotted the differences. Hell, I know nothing about the thing and it's obvious that there's something odd about it. With regards to the images I took myself and gave ye, you'll note that all of my images look like that, as up until now I was unaware that JPEG's are dodgy images. Plus, for whatever reason, my images all possess that grainy distorted effect, and oddly enough seem to differ in how they're distorted. A previous image was linked earlier in the thread which pretty much recreated that effect (not as extreme as the one given, but nonetheless a recreation).[/quote] I think the first part of your thing has been answered. We really just don't care if the SS that was provided by somebody other than you is real. It is merely what caused us to look at your images again. They looked at your images at said that they looked forged. That's what matters to us. That images given to us look forged to experts on the matter. Though I will say, if this is the largest coincidental jpeg ever, than you should be more concerned that there is a member of your alliance that wants to get you all rolled. That seems to be something that I would be worried about. [quote name='Veneke' date='14 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1266187445' post='2181411'] Contact was made to me (while I was afk) at 5.00 am GMT. This declaration went out 42 minutes later. The entirety of the message left by Penedono was "Hi!". That was the sum total of contact you tried to make with me. You're well aware of the fact that I'm on GMT actual, which was why this makes no sense in the slightest. When I talked to Penedono running this by him again yesterday (and Thunderstrike from RIA can confirm this) his reply was something to the extent of "I don't care." though he certainly had a more colourful way of phrasing it.[/quote] I cannot speak to any attempt to contact you. I don't know when it happened or how it happened. Sorry. But I will say that I believe his response to you being in a different time zone was something along the lines of we're all in different time zones. [quote name='Veneke' date='14 February 2010 - 05:44 PM' timestamp='1266187445' post='2181411'] It is curious to note though that target lists were made before an attempt was made to contact me... that's quite interesting indeed. For the record (thought I stated this earlier in this thread, but perhaps not), had GLOF come to me and shown me this, we would of course have dropped the accusation because GLOF wouldn't have felt that the evidence was satisfactory. This was done earlier, when previous evidence linking Iyeman to a spy in the 57th was deemed inconclusive, and we had no problem with that. We realized and accepted that Iyeman was a GLOF member, and it was up to Penedono to establish his guilt or innocence. As it turned out, in the event, they took what I had, verified it themselves, went to talk to Iyeman, who then decided to go nuke rogue on me, mysteriously got this screenshot of me saying it was all planned (a screenshot that stands up to no kind of scrutiny at all), decided to draw up plans to attack the 57th before contact was even made with me, and then, well... that's when this thread started. [/quote] Again I can't speak to the full timing of things as I don't know everything, nor can I speak to what your actions would have been. [quote name='constapatedape' date='14 February 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1266189718' post='2181477'] wow...I've stayed silent on this issue but this statement is just completely and utterly wrong Ven is one of the most genuine people I've met in all of CN and I have never known him to say anything but what he believes is the truth, nor in any instance have i ever heard any inkling of Ven plotting against anyone outside of during war 57th i you guys and know everything is going to work out for y'all [/quote] Perhaps you don't know people as well as you thought you did :/

[quote name='JWConner' date='14 February 2010 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1266173029' post='2180991'] I'm fairly certain we both know who this person was that you "asked around about Veneke" and we both know that they have an axe to grind. As someone who was their ally, why would you have to ask around about him to begin with? Fact is, you took to heart what a disgruntled ex-member told you. Trust me, we were not happy with 57th after they attacked our ally in WFF, but not to the point of a declaration of war. We were egged on by certain people to bring attacks against 57th or at least demand their defensive backing in order to get them rolled by other alliances. With those things in the recent past then this bogus DoW, it's clear there was premeditation to all of this. It's completely pathetic and it's going to bite you in the &$* GLoF. [/quote] Are telling me JW that I could go to any member of your alliance and ask them to give me all the qualities and traits that your allies leaders hold? I doubt it. Charles had to check because he doesn't know Ven very well... Hell, I don't know Ven very well. Weird considering that a year ago I was excited at the prospect of signing a treaty with them. Oh yes, for those of you that noticed. I'm talking about long before a treaty existed between the 57th and the Lodge. Back when Ven was second in command. Looking back it is rather strange that even though I was always hanging out and talking to various 57th members I never met their second in command and current leader. I didn't formally meet Ven until a just over a month ago when I was sent to help dig him out of the hole he put the 57th in. So perhaps you should not just assume that everybody knows everybody else if they're allied to them. K? thanks. If you're talking about who I think you're talking about then perhaps you should re-think your arguments. Or rather just not say anything at all. The premeditation behind this was receiving the SS that made us go back and look at the original SS. And after having multiple career graphic designers say that the images were forged, or answered "probably, yes" to the question we tried to reach the 57th. They never answered. We talked with our other allies. and then we DoWed. That's the premeditation behind it. The person that you inadvertently accuse of organizing this war wasn't made aware of the target until a couple of hours before update. Almost the entire alliance had no idea who we were attacking until about an hour before our DoW came. It may be that I am the only person that knew who we were attacking outside of the council in advance, but that's only because I connected what little dots there were correctly. So yes, this was premeditated about a day, maybe a day and a half in advance. There is no conspiracy here. Sometimes life is rather simple. This is one of those cases.

I still see the same wording. But nevertheless, as long as the 57th is not so blind to think that war with them was desired by the Lodge, or helpful to us.

[quote name='evilsquirrel' date='13 February 2010 - 10:07 PM' timestamp='1266116853' post='2180132'] I am debunking all the bs evidence that GLoF has presented. Just a shame they couldn't be honest about it. Its obvious the evidence is fake. Its painfully obvious. As I have shown, the screen shot shown where "ven" says that our super mega evil spai plain worked thanks to our propaganda ministry" Is fake because the 57th has NO MINISTRIES AT ALL. The .gov of GLoF should know that best of all. That shows to me the leadership of GLoF knew the evidence was fabricated. Also, as numerous people have vouched for, the way ven types in the screen shot provided by GLoF IS NOT HOW VEN talk on forums or just in general! I have shown screen shots that show how he talks and the two are not even close. Truly bad form GLoF..........truly sad. If one stops and examines the evidence it is painfully clear that this is a petty grudge against the 57th and it has now boiled over. [/quote] did you just try to claim that we have a petty grudge against the 57th? How quick people are to forget that The Lodge was the [i]first[/i] alliance to back up the 57th just one month ago when Ven declared a war that very well could have been over nothing more than a petty grudge. How quickly it is forgotten that not only did The Lodge support the 57th, but our allies who share no relationship with the 57th, negotiated peace for the 57th. How quickly people forget that after peace was reached the Lodge sent over $100 million in aid to the nations of the 57th. Petty grudges? Stop grasping at air.

[quote name='Pyroman' date='13 February 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1266087786' post='2179504'] I have to agree with what some have said. That post isn't typical of Veneke's posting style. If he were really bragging about such a thing he wouldn't hold back on the arrogant, pompous attitude he usually displays in those kinds of situations. All the same, that post is lacking. Whoever took the screenshot was kind enough to leave out the IP and topic information for that post. This was probably for when they decided to edit the screenie, they would have less work to do. [/quote] I can see the argument for the topic. However, as for the IP, you are assuming that they have the ability to see the IPs. This is not guaranteed.

[quote name='Viion Niccolar' date='13 February 2010 - 01:46 PM' timestamp='1266086802' post='2179484'] I just had a less than friendly run in with General Tito of GLOF. Apparently he doesn't know how to read since he sent 2 CM, 2 Air attacks and 2 ground attacks against me ....while I was clearly marked as "Lodge POW". Not exactly the type of behaviour that promotes people to actually do surrender is it? [/quote] Well that depends. Did you notify him of your surrender. It's your job to make sure that your attackers know that you have surrendered. If you just change your AA but don't PM them the link to your resignation then they have no way of knowing that you surrendered. Nor would he be looking at your nation, as his war & battles screen would show the AA you had when war was declared. To fight you he never has to go to your nation.

there will be blood. Let us wage this war and bring about victory.

I love me some UCN snuggles