Adam Suttler

I'm fairly certain that the words "Think" or "believe" are not in the OP. In fact, the condemning sentence is: "We are rather unhappy with how TSI handled said information." This does not express any hesitation or question of resposibility; Londo speaks, presumably for the whole Athenian community, as if he is 100% certain. We, as a result, believe that there should be some sort of evidence, which has not shown up yet from Athens (I'm sure that you see Londo's extensive Athens log is nothing more than their government's speculation on the treaty drop, not giving any concrete evidence to show that it indeed was TSI's fault). If he is not certain, then why is TSI to blame? That is the main question that still is yet to be answered.

Well, for you, I wouldn't think it is. I'm sure others on both sides, however, would agree that there is, or at least should be. If it's on the OWF, it's hardly an internal affair. They could have talked to us beforehand; instead, they go for the publicity stunt on here. Since they did so, our medium of resolution is now here, until something is decided.

That's basically the hidden meaning behind the OP. Otherwise, if they weren't sure that TSI did it 100%, why put us on the stand to account for an uncertainty? In order to prosecute anyone for being involved in some sort of crime, there has to be evidence. I have never seen anyone in a courtroom been accused without some sort of condemning evidence to support the claim. The law code of "Innocent until proven guilty" still stands in CN today, I should think. If it doesn't, then clearly something has gone horribly wrong. I congratulate Sparta and others for their display of allegiance to Athens in this whole mess, and I thank all those who support TSI in this fiasco. However, I'd like that talk of all else to please stop; we're trying to define why things are the way they are, and how we can progress from it. Now, as I recall, Londo Mollari has some condemning evidence to show us. We've all seen how your treaty dropping process works, but please stop beating around the bush and tell us the truth of what is going on, and how you came to find out what you did. The time for secrets is up, as everyone would agree. Either tell us all the details, down to every person you contacted about this whole fiasco, or if that's too much to ask, stop wasting everyone's time, and admit that you cannot back yourself up. I'm sure we all have better things to do than to check back here every hour of the day, waiting for some more mud to be shoveled around in all directions. We await your swift reply concerning these statements.

This man knows what he's talking about. This is the sort of decency this situation required. Not this whole "TSI r liars; spillin' da sekrit infoz" crap. I just started liking Athens a little more now I seriously hope we can get past this useless crap. I've managed to accept the fact that there will be no evidence present, [OOC]even if Admin himself were to ask for it[/OOC]. I'm done with this topic.

To be totally honest, I don't understand the concept of it either. It's either you're gonna fight with your ally or not; someone sitting on the sidelines waiting for their turn but won't get involved when needed isn't really an ally that you honestly need. This is in regards to ODPs in general; the above words have nothing to do with this current conflict. I do not view Athens as being dishonorable, untrustworthy, or deceitful; I kinda like them still, However, a lot of drama and time could've been saved had they simply canceled the treaty like they did with KoC. Everyone would be generally happy, and none of this needless bickering would have to take place.

If you haven't noticed, Athens openly slandered our credibility as allies in their thread. I believe we have a right to an explanation as to what concrete proof they have that led them to this conclusion. Otherwise, this could cause serious implications when we approach other alliances for a possible relationship. Edit: Wording.

This thread isn't about the Hegemony or Karma. This is about TSI and Athens. They can't prove that we did anything wrong. If that's the case, our question is why our alliance's name had to be slandered when there's no concrete reason to do so? If there's a reason, how come it has not been given for the past 20 pages? This is all based on cause and effect. Proof = point made. No proof = severe backfiring of intent (which is happening now, because Athens still can't seem to figure out why they decided TSI should take the hit for something that went on during the war.

I have only his words to back it up, same as he had Londo's. Now you know what it feels like to get inconclusive evidence. Whether there is truth in that statement, I suggest you contact Matthew Conrad regarding that. Edit: Sorry for double post. Arguing with one argument after another :S

I'm really not sure what you mean by this. This was a direct response to Londo's OP. He blatantly smeared TSI's credibility, and this is a response addressing the truth of the situation. I don't see what you see wrong with this.

I'd like to point out his statement about Athens not being entirely sure about us being the ones passing on this information. If what MC said is true, then he just managed to damn Athens down just that bit more, thus making my comment relevant.

If they're not 100% sure that we did it, why publicly incriminate us? Edit: I see, Matthew Conrad, that you may be a dear friend to Athens. However, why are you digging their grave for them, especially with this comment?

Hey everyone! I've decided to get in on this whole blogging thing, since some people have it in their sigs and such. Most of the content that I'll be writing will deal with some politics, some funnies, and maybe some random crap. But here's entry no. 1. Enjoy! The Endless Drama I'm quite a passive participant in the goings-on of things on the CN forums; they usually entail some retard asking to be ZI'd, some new charters and treaties, and the occasional "ZOMG! i c wut u did thar!!!1!" topic. It's exactly those "ZOMG" topics that, for some, make this place worth coming back to every now and again, and for others, it is the bane of their existence. There's only two types of people I hate in this world: Elitists, and stupid people. The illogicality of some people is sometimes just too much to bear to be able to write it in words. Of course, there are those that make us laugh with their completely unintentionally stupid comments, and then there are those that just won't stop posting acrid manure on these forums. Many a time I've confronted such people with stating their errors and setting them on the right path, and the only coherent response to this seems to be "NO U". How much more of this are we going to have to take (rhetorical question; we'll have to take a crapload more)?! None of my previous engagements with stupidity prepared me for what I was about to face in the Athens Treaty Cancellation thread. I was first informed of its existence in my alliance's IRC channel, when people claimed that we were being openly slandered on the OWF. Being a government member, I naturally decided to investigate these proceedings. What I came to find there was the epitome of lies and flaming that I had witnessed against TSI. We were all aware that us and Athens had drifted apart since the Karma War, no doubt as a result of being on separate sides in the conflict. However, what was said by Londo Mollari was unwarranted and baseless, and was a direct flame at TSI in general. Forgive me for belittling the cancellation with Knights of Cydonia; however, their part in the thread was close to non-existant when measured to the velocity and weight of Londo's accusation against The Sasori Initiative. Had there been an inch of visible truth to the accusation that Londo provided, I would not complain. However, no Athenian can back up his claim with anything substantial, least of all Jack Diorno's selection of useless IRC excerpts, trying to make them look incriminating. As a result of this lack of conclusive evidence, old animosities sprung up from different sectors, splitting the thread into Athens and Friends vs. TSI and Friends. The part that makes me wonder the most is that for 19 friggen pages, no conclusion has been drawn and no evidence has been provided (at least from the Athenian side. TSI brought forth logs of the only ever conversations with Athens, which were incredibly few). This is highly disappointing in an alliance such as Athens, who have been around for at least a year or so, to force such a pile of revolting crap upon the CN community, and hope for a blind following in what they have presented as the "Truth". At this point, no one truly knows what the truth is. TSI has shown time and time again that they had nothing to do with any Athens info, whilst Athens continues to force their hand that TSI had wounded them by giving away information. The flaws in this story: No one knows what the secret information is. Not even the Athenians can recall what it was about; if they knew, they would've mentioned it in the thread a long time ago. Athens keeps avoiding any direct confrontation regarding their accusations, instead of addressing them with a suitable answer. It has been 2 days since this announcement has been made. Why Athens still hasn't come up with a suitable public response just boggles my mind. But thinking about it, it truly does take a month or so to write a good fictional story. Londo Mollari, and several of his government members, seem to think that this whole affair is a joke. News flash: it isn't. You've just crashed your alliance's PR to such a level that cow !@#$ looks like flowers. It's true that TSI may have taken a hit, but since your plan backfired, they've come out less bruised. I have seen the words, "Believe what you want. We know the truth.", too many times in this thread, posted by either Londo or some other Athenian. Would it honestly be too much to ask for us to be enlightened by your truth? You have nothing but your words to blindly guide others in your direction. Perhaps some proof of the legality of your accusations would be appropriate. The people of Planet Bob deserve to know the truth. You have not given them that at all. It is not a mortal sin to admit that someone is wrong. If you can prove that your accusations are correct, hell I'll write a public apology to Athens regarding this entire mix-up. If you can't do so because you don't want to or you don't have anything to do it with, then you can simply back down and apologize, as we would, if we were in your situation. Your blinding pride may falter as a result, but running away from this problem with your tail between your legs is not the answer to it. You've already thrown the dice, Athens. It's your move.

Bump, as I'm replacing Toku's nudity with my own.

I doubt we'll ever see any conclusive evidence in this thread, or ever for that matter, so going after that will be a lost cause. I can't say much else except that I am highly disappointed in the way that Athens handled the situation. I'm sure you all believe that you are right and we are wrong, and that we believe the opposite. The only difference between us is that we can back ourselves up. I dunno, maybe you can too; but as I see it at this point, it's all in your head, as AFTER 18 PAGES, you've not given anyone any reason to believe that your accusations are true. I would honestly request a public apology be made out to TSI for your needless charade, Londo. Either you back up your words, or you back down. You might be able to save yourself some PR points if you go through with the apology, because as of right now, you're in a cluster$%&@ of a mess. I expect a response from Athens concerning my statements. This thread has gone overboard, and I think it's time to bring this to a close, for the sake of both Athens, TSI, and any others that have involved themselves in this ridiculous fiasco. o/ Allies supporting allies o/ TBB <3 o/ Truth and Justice

So, instead of mentioning this as the prime reason in your OP, you fabricate a completely different and baseless conclusion for your reasoning, to make you look as if you're the victim, when in fact, neither party was really too involved with the other.

If there's no proof, then what did you base your conclusion that TSI received any information, and that we dispensed it to your enemies? It just doesn't make sense unless you can back up your actions with something. If you can't back your actions up with anything, then this thread is simply nothing more than a flame thread against TSI in general, as flames are generally baseless and rude in nature. If no evidence is provided, it can be assumed that the OP is nothing more than a cancellation with KoC, and a direct flame against TSI. Also, the second part of your argument is not entirely true. There was no bad blood towards Athens until this point; we simply wanted a treaty cancellation simply because neither of us benefited from the agreement due to the lack of any communication, although I can't speak for Athens regarding their reasoning. Just clearing that up.

You never know. If they weren't, I apologize for jumping on that.

Can you support that first bit of your statement? It seems no more than the same blind shepherding done by Londo.

We may be very loyal to TPF, but we have the dignity to keep such potentially sensitive information to ourselves.

If Athens truly cared about the relationship between them and TSI, they would have contacted our government in regards to these accusations, and tried to work this problem out when it was on the table. Yet, you did not. Why? Instead, you leave this for several months when it becomes almost obsolete. Can you explain the logic behind this move? I am still under the impression that this is a fabrication of paranoia, fear, and irresponsibility on your part; you've presented us with nothing but your words that your government things we are the bad guys, and that we apparently leaked some sort of information which you cannot even recall to be able to disclose. Please enlighten us all, Londo Mollari. It is not fair to keep most of CN in the dark with your intentions and actions, without showing the responsibility and evidence of your actions.

Londo, I'm still very confused as to what evidence you have. TSI - Athens communications hit an all time low during the Karma War itself, being on opposite sides of the fight, and even more so that we didn't talk too often beforehand. From what the most of us can see here, you are basing your "information" by stringing words out of context, and perhaps even fabricating your own. I cannot, for the life of me, comprehend what kind of evidence Athens would be able to weigh against TSI that we would be so deceitful as to say anything that might harm one of our allies. Either this is a monumental misunderstanding, or you just ridiculously enjoyed story time as a child.

We'd see mass suicide within Athens, if this were to take place.

I have yet to locate the truth in this statement. You never call, we barely talk; this long-distance relationship can't go on like this, Londo. To accuse us of sharing information that you trust us with is simply low, as I have no heard anything of Athenian affairs since the start of the war in general; being a member of government, I can only assume that we are constantly informed of this private information, which we did not receive too often. We honor our allies and their privacy, as others can vouch, so this is rather out of the blue. Let me make this clear, so that everyone understands what's going on. We at TSI have recently voted on dropping our treaty with Athens simply because there was a lack of communication between the both of us; simply put, it wasn't working out. For Athens to have the balls to fabricate such an excuse as us giving away their private information is both unsavory and ludicrous. I assume we are both basing it on the same lack of communication, and that we were separately planning the same thing, except that you beat us to the post. I'm fairly disappointed that things turned out this way; when we started the treaty, we were all around good friends. But this whole lack of communication, along with the Karma War, forced our two alliances apart. But seeing the accusations that Athens so ungraciously laid upon us, it is now no wonder to me as to why things are the way they are now.

Please, do tell.

Great. Cuz a stalemate is the solution. Congrats.