HeroofTime55

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281422348' post='2409268'] You reconcile the situation before it turns into a full blown war. ie send 6mil to TENE instead of the rogue. That would have fixed it instantly. [/quote]That doesn't make any sense. Heft did absolutely nothing wrong until he sent aid to the rogue. NSO has a longstanding policy since their formation of accepting members with baggage. They also have an internal policy of not aiding members until they solve all their conflicts, which Heft violated. There simply was no problem until the aid was sent. No problem to reconcile until then. Which renders your demand to reconcile nonexistent problems laughable.

[quote name='Thunder Strike' timestamp='1281419273' post='2409220'] Also, reconciling should come before the act of war, not after. [/quote]Many of you don't seem to have a grasp on the concept of time. How can NSO reconcile an act of war before it occurs? Of course the leadership (Read: those above Heft) are going to try and negotiate after the act, in an attempt to come to a reasonable, diplomatic solution. This is the way the world has always functioned. But apparently, things have changed, and it's now completely acceptable to ignore diplomatic efforts when you just really want a war that bad. I mean, RoK made no attempt to even feign diplomacy. It's a new low for CN as a whole.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281405927' post='2408873'] So did Heft order the nations of NSO into peace or did someone else? [/quote]I don't know, I'm not privy to the internal workings of NSO. But what I can tell you is that it's no incriminating act once NSO realized that RoK had no will to discuss a peaceful solution to a simple problem.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281405226' post='2408847'] If a member of your government gets you into a war you don't get to pull another member of government out and say "oh no wait, we totally didn't mean to do that". Your government committed you to war, now you have a war. The fact that NSO's announcement consisted of hollow justifications for their actions rather than a disavowment of heft's actions just goes to show that any claims of innocence on NSO's part are disingenuous at best. NSO likes testing limits, and decided to test the limits of how far they could take aiding a rogue in active wars. They found the limit, in fact they ran into it like a brick wall at about 90mph. [/quote] Now you're just being ridiculous, claiming that Heft somehow authorized war. Can I ask NSO for a second here, whether or not Heft has the authority to authorize war? Something tells me the answer to that is 'No' but it's still good to ask. Edit: I asked Heft himself: [code]<Heft> Only the Emperor can authorize war[/code] So no, Heft could not have authorized a war. When the superiors to a member seek to correct that member's actions, yes, the diplomatic thing to do is to listen. Not rush into war. RoK was the clear aggressor, and it's clear by this point that they weren't the only ones itching for a war over any silly little reason. It's funny because the same names hailing this are the ones who were always critical of the NPO and gang not using enough diplomacy. How standards change! And it's interesting that you have no comment on my response to your admitting that NSO is likely to get extorted by the time you've grown bored of roughing them up. Are R&R, VE, and GOD going to be taking a slice of this cake as well?

I approve of the construction of Denny's wherever possible. Congratulations guys

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281401803' post='2408746'] stuff [/quote] You are misrepresenting my position. I am not saying that Heft did not commit transgressions against RoK. No matter how bad what Heft did was, the fact is that [i]those superior to Heft immediately sought to resolve the issue.[/i] RoK ignored this. Because RoK ignored this, they are in the wrong. It has nothing to do with Heft being warned, Heft sending aid, Heft nuking RoK nations, Heft threatening to disband RoK, or whatever other real or imagined wrongs Heft might have done. Those in charge of NSO, those in a position superior to that of Heft, did not approve of Heft's actions and sought a resolution with RoK for the transgressions committed by Heft. RoK refused to hear what NSO had to say and instead wrongly pinned Heft's actions on NSO, when NSO clearly disagreed with the acts. RoK is clearly the aggressor in this. [quote]That's up to Rok but since we actually had to go to war over it now instead of NSO being sane about it, I'm guessing its going to cost a lot more than 6 mil. [/quote]Yeah, except as has been established, you didn't actually "have" to go to war over it. A day of diplomacy, which NSO had on the table the whole time, could have solved this. You wanted to go to war. But I'm not at all surprised to see that NSO is going to be extorted after being roughed up. In fact I've been calling it from the very start. I'm just a little shaken to see that VE is going to be a part of that. I expected better from you.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281395640' post='2408551'] You miss the point again. There are those standing up here downplaying the significance of the event. Of NSO sending monetary aid to someone engaged in war. If these people truly don't care they should be OK with us doing the same to them. This is the greatest standard of if something is good or not, if you'd be OK with it were positions reversed. So if you would not be OK with me sending money to people rogueing you, shut the hell up with the attempts to paint NSO as the wronged target here. tl'dr parody is a tool to expose the idiocy of another's debating position. I used it and it sailed over your head. [/quote]Except that's not the case. The issue is not the insignificance of the incident alone. It is the insignificance of the incident coupled with RoK's aggressive attitude and their methodology of shunning diplomacy so that they could get their little war in. What Heft did was wrong and was a transgression, however minor, against RoK. I don't see anyone denying that. I certainly am not. If you aided a guy who was raiding my alliance, I would talk to VE.gov to settle the issue first, instead of just up and attacking your whole alliance. Even if the leader of VE sent the aid, I'd go straight to the head of VE to try and negotiate the issue. I would only declare war if those good faith negotiations failed. What you are doing is setting up a straw man analogy.

[quote name='TypoNinja' timestamp='1281391512' post='2408437'] If I had any open aid slots I'd be down for this. I hope somebody is keeping a list, we can organize aid drops to rogues after the war. [/quote]I'd expect it from GOD and \m/, but not VE. You are better than this.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281389772' post='2408395'] No, the implication I'm making is that maybe Rok didn't pursue additional negotiations based on the actions of NSO. I don't think NSO wanted this war at all, however I think they tried to get out of it in a completely incompetent way. Now ignore that and tell me what I'm [i]really[/i] thinking, just like I know you will. e- and you still haven't answered my original question, or even addressed it at all, why is that? [/quote]Except RoK didn't need to seek negotiations, because NSO was doing that. RoK only had to merely accept to enter negotiations. But they couldn't. They wouldn't. They didn't want to. Because that might get in the way of smacking around NPO's side of the web. And what was your original question? I apologize but I haven't the time to dig it up. It might have been something I've already answered, or maybe it was a weighted question. I try to answer all reasonable questions.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281388597' post='2408355'] I will not listen to you, instead I will continue to aid the rogue, after all it is just a minor transgression, see how that works? BTW I am serious I will be aiding the next rogue to hit you guys. [/quote]That's cool, because I won't be talking to you, I'll be talking to your government, you know, the people responsible for your antics. You're also making threats that do not parallel the situation between RoK and NSO, just so you're aware. [quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281388601' post='2408356'] If you would stop spinning for your side for a second and re-read what you quoted I said, I'm not saying either side did anything. I'm merely pointing out that getting told "don't aid", then aiding and hitting PM probably looks suspicious to the people you supposedly wanted to negotiate with. You probably do need a tinfoil hat if you read what I typed and came to the conclusion that you did. I have a suggestion, lay off the posting for awhile and gather your thoughts, you're clearly fighting too many fronts at once and it's readily apparent that you can't handle it. e- and you didn't answer my question [/quote]The implication you made is that NSO was preparing for a war that they wanted. That is absurd, and proven untrue by the fact that they called off their allies. Why on earth do you think that NSO just woke up one day and decided that they wanted to get rolled? See: [quote]That sends a sign to the people lined up against NSO that NSO was preparing for war, not more negotiations.[/quote]Because NSO can't attempt to negotiate and prepare for the event that negotiations fail (Or as it happened, never occur) at the same time. They should have just sat there and taken as big a hit as they could! Man, it would be mighty convenient for you if your enemies just all bent over like that. But I'm afraid that isn't how it works.

[quote name='Viking' timestamp='1281386144' post='2408270'] So did Heft order all those nations into PM as well? Someone did, and they did it in between the original discussion with Hoo and the time the war was launched. That sends a sign to the people lined up against NSO that NSO was preparing for war, not more negotiations. [/quote] Again with the reasoning that "The victim actually wants the crime to be committed on him!" Really? Maybe it had to do with the entirety of RoK.gov making themselves scarce and it being a common sense precaution. Just a thought. And I'm the one who needs to take off the tin foil [quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281386179' post='2408273'] I shall be watching for rogue action against 64 digits, when it happens I will send the rogue aid to assist in his rogue actions against 64 digits, and we will be cool correct? Since it will only be a minor transgression. [/quote]Alright, and I will try to diplomatically talk to \m/ first, to reach an acceptable diplomatic solution, instead of rushing immediately into war. See how that works? [quote name='Matthew Conrad' timestamp='1281387422' post='2408303'] They waited and gave NSO ample time to drop the guy before they decided to send gov sanctioned aid. Rok gave NSO all the diplomatic fair these situations are usually given by the vast majority of alliances out there. [/quote]Right, because Heft's superiors trying to handle the situation properly doesn't count now? Did the definition of diplomacy change while I was away? And in case you haven't noticed, NSO doesn't drop people. Their policy is just to not provide aid, a policy Heft violated, causing a minor transgression against RoK. And as much as you all try to drum it up as some heinous crime, it is still just a minor transgression. It's ironic, that the same people criticizing NSO now are those who initially hailed the same policy of accepting nations at war. It's funny how quickly standards change when all of a sudden the same policy affects someone else.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281386618' post='2408287'] If you feel so strongly about this why don't you jump to the defense of NSO? [/quote] And here is a perfect example of [i]completely missing the point.[/i] If NSO is encouraging it's allies to not run straight into an obvious death trap, please do tell why on earth I would do so? Come on, we've been over this one.

[quote name='Ashoka the Great' timestamp='1281384602' post='2408193'] Don't forget their cowardly allies. You know....like Invicta. [/quote]Come now, are we [i]still[/i] trying to goad NPO and friends into war? Don't you realize how silly this makes you look now? "Lol at the conspiracy theorists, like we care if NPO enters this... But seriously, you're all a bunch of cowards!"

[quote name='NoFish' timestamp='1281385268' post='2408229'] NSO's attempt at a "compromise" consisted of an act of war against Ragnarok. I can't blame them for not having high hopes on what Sith diplomacy would bring - short of buying enough time to get their whole alliance into peace mode. [/quote]This is a blatant lie. You refer to the words of Heft, prior to his minor transgression against RoK. NSO, and by that I mean individuals of superior rank to Heft, sought to rectify the situation. And the accusation that NSO was attempting to stall is the most laughable thing I've heard yet - unfortunately, I was expecting it to pop up sooner or later. I go back to the "dropped quarter" example, because I failed to provide the whole picture: It's like if I dropped a quarter, you picked it up, and then offered it to me, to which I respond by punching you in the face. Makes perfect sense.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281384424' post='2408182'] If, as you claim, NSO was trying to diplomatically correct Heft's screw up and avoid war then you must also be in agreement with WAE that NSO knew it had a problem long before the declaration of war. Did I read that correctly? [/quote]Yes, and they did alert WAE of that issue. But that is not the topic at hand, and you seek to divert attention from the issues. Do you dispute my claims above or are you in agreement with them?

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1281380685' post='2408053'] Frankly, it would be a huge bonus in my opinion if this war escalated, even without NPO's participation. Unless you're heavily involved in the politics, the waiting before wars is little fun. In the four years I've been here, I've been on either side of a war, winning or losing. It kick starts activity and you generally gain more active members, who weren't otherwise very active within the alliance. So yes, personally I would love to see it escalate, just for the few weeks of debate it will spark. Van Hoo is the de facto leader of SuperFriends? I thought it was Penkala, or something We took our pound of flesh from Pacifica, and within GOD that part ended for us when Karma/reps finished. Perhaps NPO will want to come for their tech one day, and so I say bring it. Regardless of our political standing at that point in time. I'm more inclined to believe that many would rather see other alliances from that 'side' drawn out. I know exactly who GOD would like to see join the fray. You make a point of stating Rok rushed into this attack, seizing the opportunity. The simple fact of this matter however is that Hoo [i]explicitly[/i] told NSO exactly what would happen. So it happened. It's as simple as that. If NSO didn't want it to happen, it was an extremely easy out for them. It's as easy to argue NSO wanted this war, as it is Rok did. They knew precisely what they were doing, and they've baited other SuperFriend alliances several times over the past year (though I can forgive you for not knowing that, since you weren't around -thankfully- we had enough posters like yourself just with AUT). Therefore I can easily conclude that NSO were in fact the ones seeking the war - though this isn't my personal opinion, I just think they bit off more than they could chew, and picked the wrong SF alliance to piss off. Regarding 'trivial': In this instance the connotations of it supports your argument, which is trying to being completely objective/factual with no bias. 'trivial' skews this to support you, therefore in this case I think you shouldn't have used it. It's not the amount of money that matters, it's the fact that money was sent. Likewise, the size of the nation doesn't matter either, it's the principle. I think that covers every point you've made, please don't retaliate with a "BUT YOU SKIRTED AROUND MY QUESTION HURRR". If I did, let me know and I'll fix it. [/quote]Hoo explicitly told Heft, who, as I have stated, and which we agree on, made a mistake by aiding the nation. This is not a mistake just because "Hoo said so" but because it runs counter to Sith policy. This would normally be cause for war, except that Heft's superiors immediately attempted to rectify the situation via diplomacy. Which is standard practice to do when someone under your responsibility screws up, whether it be a base member or the third in command. Because NSO sought a diplomatic solution, it completely nullifies any justification RoK may have had. War was not a necessary response. It was also, frankly, an unreasonable response. It was an aggressive response, because RoK was seeking the aggressive route from the start. RoK explicitly and intentionally ignored the opportunity NSO presented for a swift and diplomatic resolution, because they were starving for a war. The argument that they are justified because war "increases activity" and "alleviates boredom" is hardly an adequate justification for this crime. The argument that "Any amount of aid is totally wrong and worthy of war" is likewise absurd. It's like if I dropped a quarter on the ground and you pick it up, and get locked up for 20 years for 'stealing.' It is not just the principle of the matter. There are degrees of magnitude for events like this, and the magnitude of $6 million is trivial and not beyond 5 minutes of negotiation. The fact is, RoK are blatantly the aggressors here. While Heft is guilty of mindlessly and trivially violating internal NSO policy, the NSO itself, because of the diplomatic resolutions offered by those superior to Heft, is completely free from guilt. I am beginning to sound like a broken record, but RoK ignored diplomacy in favor of aggression. It's that simple.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281382562' post='2408121'] I know you have been on an extended vacation but, I would have thought you might have realized by now that NPO is now longer that relevant or deserving of conspiracies concocted to trick them into destruction. Other than that carry on. [/quote]Really? That's news to me. Everywhere I look, the discussion is always about NPO, and NPO is the standard to which things are compared to discern if they are 'justified' in this new world. Any outside observer would be forced to assume that NPO plays a central role in the world. Which of course they don't, but that is what every discussion inevitably indicates. Ok, seriously, let's stop playing at this lie where it "Totally has absolutely nothing to do with the NPO! Honest!" There have been a multitude of attempts over the past months to get them involved in a war. It is not unreasonable to assume that this is just another attempt, especially when the first half of this thread is pretty much just people trying to goad NPO to war.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281381266' post='2408074'] That ... is a pretty weak example of supposed "goading". lol [/quote]There is a difference between masked and weak. It's a subtle remark designed to get more vocal people riled up about how "NPO are cowards!" and whatnot. And subtle enough so that when I point it out, you can easily and convincingly backtrack and say it isn't. But that's my interpretation of the quote, in the context of much more explicit goading which was for a period quite rampant in this thread. I don't expect you to admit to it of course.

[quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281380303' post='2408037'] I usually ignore you due to you being a horrid forum poster. However, you said a couple of things stand out here that need to be addressed (for a change): 1. The SF bloc has no de facto leader. It isn't me, it isn't Xiph, it isn't Delta or Goose ... 2. Can you point me to the posts where I have "attempted to goad the NPO and allies into war"? I have repeatedly stated that I don't care either way if NSO's allies jump in or not, our issue is not with them. Furthermore, I have also stated that we did not [b]expect[/b] their allies to jump in, based on past experiences. Please note that SF alliances are indeed separate and we do not all share the exact same views and opinions. Also note, that if you point out a member of Ragnarok, that still does not prove your assertion that "right up to Van Hoo III himself" ... This might shock you, but I don't care about the NPO in the slightest and have nothing against them. Egads! Fact and truth! How will you react?!? ... I am confident that I already know. lol [/quote]1. It's less clear cut than in CnG, I will give you that. But don't try to deny the little personality cult you have around you. 2. Yes I can: [quote name='Van Hoo III' timestamp='1281312839' post='2405382'] We had to scramble since NSO was heading to peace mode. We got who was on IRC and had them declare. The initial plan did not call for so many alliances. I know you won't believe that, and that is fine ... but facts are facts. [b]Also ... no, we don't expect a counter and honestly never did. For some reason, no one never seems to come for us when we decide to declare war on someone. Last time, it was some sort of odd "strategy" that allowed us to sit and hit our target for a week ... this time NSO will play martyr to stop a non-existent plot to get at the NPO. The world is "boring" because treaties don't seem to get honored. Some of us are just fine with acting when we feel we are in the right ... NSO included, to be honest. Sadly, there aren't enough alliances willing to follow through.[/b] [/quote]A bit more masked than the typical goading of "LOL NPO R COWERDS HURRRRR," but it's goading nonetheless. Glad to be of assistance.

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281378257' post='2407950'] #5 was about to the whole.. trying to act all diplomatic AFTER the facts... after an act of war was committed, to not get stomped. [/quote]Right, after Heft screwed up, his superiors swiftly attempted to correct the problem. Shame on them! Please, come up with something better.

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1281378127' post='2407942'] Objectively, the facts are correct though worded in a manner to make Rok look bad. For example, 'trivial'. Looking at it in this manner would cause people to sympathise with NSO. However, subjectively, and when you add into the context and the shared deixis that we pretty much all have, people can understand the situation and why these 'facts' came into play. Thus, causing people to support Rok. So, to clarify the facts are true. They're just displayed in a manner that suits your propaganda. [/quote] You dispute the word trivial. Would you consider $6 million in aid as a significant, trivial, or moderate sum of aid? What would be the status you consider of a 4k NS nation? I consider both to be trivial. And if referring to them for what I believe them to be puts RoK in a bad light, is it me putting them in a bad light, or is it the facts of the situation putting them in a bad light? I am not denying that Heft of the NSO screwed up, and I won't even dispute that RoK, technically, was violated here. But Heft's superiors reached out in diplomacy, to try and correct the issue, and RoK rejected this diplomacy. That, and that alone, puts RoK in the wrong. Had NSO not offered a diplomatic solution, a solution that would have been simple and I doubt would have taken over five minutes to arrive at, then, and only then, would RoK be totally justified in declaring war. Instead, and we agree on this fact, instead, RoK rushed to attack before NSO could hit peace mode, and in the process blatantly ignored NSO's attempts at a diplomatic resolution. These are the facts. The next is the interpretation of what they mean. To me, it is clear that RoK wanted this war. Once Heft gave them the opportunity, they just couldn't resist, and weren't about to let a day of diplomacy get in their way. Another fact is that a multitude of people, from various ranks, right up to Van Hoo III himself, the de-facto leader of the SuperFriends bloc, have attempted goad NPO and their allies into war. I interpret that fact, and the context of multiple other attempts to get NPO involved in war over the past few weeks, to indicate that this war is about much more than the rather petty violation Heft committed on RoK. The party line response at this point is for you to call me a "conspiracy theorist" and to tell me to "take off the tin foil hat." But I'm hoping maybe we might spark a serious discussion on the matter.

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1281377527' post='2407922'] Or maybe it's as simple as this: Rok told NSO don't aid him, or it's an act of war. NSO aided him. Rok followed through on their promise. Yeah, Rok are acting aggressively, because NSO forced their hand and called their bluff. [/quote]My question is a simple yes or no question, why can't you answer it? Do you or do you not dispute the facts of the situation which I have listed? Why are you trying to skirt around the issue? It is a simple question of the facts, pretty much to test if we even share a common understanding of the situation, wherein the dispute would then lie in the interpretation of what those facts mean. But if we are disputing reality itself, that's a much bigger problem. So please, answer my question.

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281377183' post='2407909'] Fact: The guy had wars going when he was accepted Fact: He was aided by a reprsentative on NSO Fact: Hoo gave a fair warning and made sure consequences were understood Fact: NSO called Bluff Fact: We arent idiots, crap hit NSO in the face, apparently (although still needs to be proven)they hurried to "backtrack" so they wouldnt have to face the consequences... fail sith indeed [/quote]You didn't answer my question, but I'll respond to what I can 1) This is Sith policy. 2) Sith policy is to not aid nations until they settle their conflicts. Heft acted in violation of this policy. His superiors were seeking to correct the issue. 3) To Heft, who violated the policy listed in #2. 4) Heft did, and aided the nation in violation of the policy outlined in #2, while his superiors actively sought diplomatic resolution. 5) I'm afraid I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Now please go back and answer my question. Seriously it's a simple yes or no question, why are you trying to skirt around it?

[quote name='Phetion' timestamp='1281376789' post='2407892'] It's easy to post facts without the context that created them, and surrounds them. To be honest, it's as simple as Hoo told NSO that if they aided that nation, it would consider it an act of war. Which it did. There was no need for diplomatic talks to prevent this war, as NSO threw diplomacy out of the window when they aided a nation that was directly involved in war with a Rok Protectorate. [/quote]I'm sorry, you don't seem to be answering my question. I don't know why, I think the facts are pretty obvious. Please, bear with me here. This isn't some sort of trick of them being taken out of context. Though you do seem to dispute the fact that Heft acted in violation of Sith policy. But he did, and the reality is you can hardly lay the blame on NSO as a whole. Especially when [i]Heft's superiors were actively seeking a diplomatic resolution.[/i] I think it's because to explicitly admit to the facts is to basically admit that RoK acted aggressively, because they wanted this war to happen, and that runs directly counter to the current line of reasoning that NSO just up and decided they wanted to get rolled one day. Yes, the classic justification that the victim actually wants to suffer through the crime being committed. What a shock to see you fall back on to that one.

[quote name='Daikos' timestamp='1281375566' post='2407847'] I also think we should all stop arguing for a moment and take a second to thank HeroOfTime. There was a marked decline in delusional rants on the OWF after AUT left. Thank you for doing your best to fill that void. [/quote]The bulk of my posts present the undisputed facts, so how do people respond? They call me delusional of course! Fact: Heft screwed up in violation of Sith policy to not aid new members until they have settled their conflicts Fact: People of superior rank to Heft reached out to RoK with an offer of a diplomatic solution Fact: RoK rushed to their allies to attack with enough immediately available nations to stop NSO from going into peace mode, foregoing diplomatic negotiation Fact: The incident involved a trivial amount of aid to a trivial sized nation, and is not anything that a day of negotiation could not have solved. Do you or do you not dispute these facts?