HellAngel

The alliance had 9 members the last time i checked, of which about 5 said they were completely inactive (in the process of joining us). So yeah, that wasnt much of an election i guess..

[quote name='New Frontier' timestamp='1305748378' post='2714445'] "I was not willing to stand by idly and allow HellAngel's topic to be disregarded." - Lukupaka That's what I was referring to, champ. [/quote] I've said it before, but just for you: We requested those threads.

Well, then the answer is easy If i turned into a Ramirus i would want my members to coup me.

I dont think you can simplify a situation like that, JB. Circumstances always play a huge role.

maybe we can sum that up to GGA vs its own sphere

If anything, this once again shows that no matter how clear or well thought out your cause is, there will always be people offended by it. Also, thanks for the nice words Luka.

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305673780' post='2713881'] From what I have read it hasn't been definite at any point that this was the only means to achieve what you all want. It's certainly understandable that some options aren't appealing to a point one wishes not to either look into or act in that manner. There were other options besides the joining of Gramlins which you had mentioned. [/quote] I also pointed out why they werent applicable, whats your point? [quote] I apologize for I had actually phrased that portion of my post poorly and it really didn't convey what I was thinking or intending to say. What you had quoted was actually meant to be the lead up to a point I had forgot to edit in before submitting and I should have left out anyway as the more I thought about where I was going the more I realized it was touched on briefly already by yourselves. What time frame are you talking when you say you were about to make a reformation? At the time where people were trickling out you all had an idea the reformation would occur or do you mean something else? [/quote] Well, it takes a while to get everyone back together. There was a core group that was available from the start, but most people needed to be contacted or even brought back to planet bob. All in all we took 3 months to get everything together. (and i still wonder that opsec was kept as well as it was)

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305666517' post='2713829'] I suppose that depends upon how one defines personal abilities. Going outside of what one is comfortable with or attempting what one believes themself to not be capable of and experimenting is certainly something to consider what all other obvious options have failed. The issue here would largely be because one hasn't typically done such things they might not be familiar with all of the opportunities said methods present. So really I can't rightly say just yet whether more can be asked, assuming you mean reasonably so. [/quote] I am still only a human, and quite honestly tired of getting judged by you. Im gonna rescind to my position that you have not a single lonely clue what you are talking about. (If i was god, i could have prevented it. If i was me, i couldnt. Do you want to find the exact point between those two where ability matches possibility? You wont find it.) [quote] I'm not one capable of seeing everything so at this moment am limited to seeing negotiations or waiting for a proper disbandment. Those two options off the top of my head might leave a bad taste in your mouth or even be viewed as impossible in the case of the former, maybe it was even attempted but they nonetheless are options. I'm sure we could come up with other options or different ways of proceeding given time. [/quote] Time is deciding factor. I wasnt going to wait until all people who pledge support to our cause went into catatonic inactivity again. And again, you wrap your thoughts in complicated words but still appear to miss the wider aspects. I'm now going to assume you are only a show-off. [quote] Instead the chosen course of action was to set up a separate alliance under the same name and essentially threaten an alliance war should they fail to either join you or leave. Detaching yourself from this, might you see why others are a bit concerned over it being not only effectively accomplished but with significant backing in political and military strength. Despite any subtle nuances one might differentiate this with other incident past or future can you see how the actions taken might make others feel a bit uneasy outside of any questions one has from any other perspective? People tend to try and emulate the accomplishments of their predecessors modifying it towards their aims. [/quote] I hope we made some people feel uneasy. Breaking boundries was always one of our core strength. Take nothing for granted. [quote] You already did when you all left. How you feel about that fact is another matter entirely though and I think is what you mean to [/quote] You apparently cant go straight, so you back up and go back to where we were ten pages ago. All my comments were under the assumption of a reformation happening. We all had left and we were about to make a reformation... why leave our name to Ramlins?

[quote name='Dochartaigh' timestamp='1305658369' post='2713747'] Wasn't there another alliance created by Enderland first? I believe it was Kronos but could possibly be another alliance. not entirely certain bout the name. [/quote] The Kronos splinter happened long before Ramirus took over.

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305662619' post='2713786'] Yes it is pretentious. Would you though say I'm wrong in the assertion and that you tried literally everything possible to achieve change? Keep in mind that my post covered not only the possibility of using different methods but also different styles within those same methods. [/quote] I'd say i exhausted all my possibilities within the range of my personal abilities. You can't ask for more, can you? [quote] I'm not judging this group of Gramlins for quitting. We've all striven for causes at some point in our lives where we made the conscious decision to just move on our of a momentary belief any effort will see no fruit. I've only judged the means chosen to return and effect change. [/quote] Which other options would there have been? Of course we could have all joined the Ramlins and try to change it from within, but our application would have been at the mercy of Ramirus. Who, of course, would have denied us entry, or at least powerful positions within the alliance. We could have created a different alliance. But we didnt want to abandon our name and our reputation to a lunatic. Take it as you will, this is our alliance. We created it from scratch back in '06.

[quote name='Jonathan Brookbank' timestamp='1305660669' post='2713766'] There was never much of a real rivalry between Grämlins and GGA, at least not during my time there. Considering Bilrow gave me the job of "policing" them and I liked their alliance, it amounted to nothing much more than some huffing and puffing from Bilrow. [/quote] You're kidding, right? I cant even count the times we were threatened with war...

Gre-GGA on Green was also very intense back then, but probably not one of the greatest in CN

No idea, but he's definately with us

We only requested a DoS from Fark though... it was a pleasent surprise nontheless

[quote name='Hyperbad' timestamp='1305599769' post='2713391'] You could have hung in there and kept up the campaigns against him changing tactics if necessary as necessary. It could be as simple as changing the way one posts, picking ones battles more selectively, adopting a similar platform but with any self-destructive parts removed to capitalize on the support he apparently had. There are a number of things which were possible. Some times our persosnal involvement clouds that. [/quote] Dont you think it's pretentious for you to say there were a number of things possible when you actually have no clue what its like to argue with him and never were in Gremlins, therefor having no knowledge about the possibilities of the charter? I dont say there weren't any possibilities left. Maybe i just didnt see them, but when you have been fighting something for about a year and the general consensus appears to say you are wrong, you just give up after some time. I left and went to TOP to let Gremlins go their merry way, which they did by going paperless and declaring eternal war on IRON (lol). It's not like there weren't many people convinced Rams way was the right one. [quote] This is only a guess but I believe the above argument comes from a "in leaving any [lack of a proper term or phrase] was thereby surrendered." I wouldn't personally say right because that's always been so loosely defined by everyone that no one any more really shares a definition. Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder. People cherry pick that going both ways. [/quote] Yeah i guess.

[quote name='Thorgrum' timestamp='1305601481' post='2713407'] I read all available information to me as a Templar when I was a gramlin. The forums contained a great deal of historic data which included discussions on ramirus before he ever became an archon, or templar for that matter. You all knew you had a cancer, most of you chose not to operate and cut it out. I wish you all the success in the world, sincerely I hope it pans out but the back slapping is a little silly, really we arent here in a reexistance thread because of Ramirus, hes just the fall guy. Oh and to your first sentence, if I recall the procedures the vote could have been called there were enough archons at the time who supported it. Would it have passed? We will never know will we? We certainly know what happened when that vote wasnt called, most everyone bailed and he kept the place going. Its just funny as hell to read is all, its highly entertaining and thats why we are all here afterall. Good luck out there [/quote] You are incorrect, there WAS a vote about disbandment (which resulted 60-40 against) and there were also votes about kicking Ramirus. You have no idea how much we fought against each other about him. I know i decided to leave when they promoted Ram to archon (although only did that at a later point, when he was elected Judicator). Don't pinpoint this all on the "old guard", Ramirus had plenty of supporters. Why do you think it was so hard for us to act?

We already grew another 2 points... Asgaard we are coming! edit: Woah we got our flag in there, nice

Tell me what else we could have done to try to stop him. I called for alliance disbandment and it was rejected. You guys should hold your breath for a second and think about if you are even in any position to judge. edit: Also, arent we exactly "doing something about it" with this? I know it's way too late to change facts, but the possibility to revive an alliance doesnt only depend on how much the former incarnation sucks...

[quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1305576568' post='2712975'] Ram doesn't really do the OWF, he was on IRC earlier. Either way, what's he going to do? Come argue this and win hearts and minds? Right. He can either shuffle off, get attacked in 6 days, or attack first. Hopefully whatever he does all the fanbois let Grämlins handle it; I'd sort of like a Grämlins-Grämlins cage match if it comes to that. [/quote] I somehow hope he turns up, but since there's basically nothing to win in here for him i guess he wouldnt take an obvious route if he was really out for revenge. Which i doubt.

[quote name='SynthFG' timestamp='1305576140' post='2712966'] Lord Sharpe, Boondock, etc [/quote] Captain Will, Kogenta, Puritan John, Hanse, Jmm... i could go on and on :/

[quote name='Hyperion321' timestamp='1305573899' post='2712941'] Somebody get that guy to reroll. Bob would be a better place for it. [/quote] Indeed. I tried to get him and Steelrat to come back, but they are occupied in another world...

but yeah... FEAR US

aaaaaaand another one who didnt get the reference would any older VE member enlighten him?

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1305554159' post='2712821'] I agree with you on this. Anyone who has ever had to deal with Ramirus knows that this coup was a good thing. While I do kinda agree with the point that the old guys should have stayed around the alliance and voted him out, I understand why they left. One of the good things that they can take away from their time out of the Gremlins is experience and a view that they otherwise would not have had. Seriously, for the doubters, this is a good thing for this alliance and really only involves them. The rest of us are just the peanut gallery sitting back and watching. I imagine d34th will be back to continue. He probably just had some things he needed to take care of. [/quote] The point was, the "older guys" just saw what was going to happen while some of the newer members followed Ram because he appeared as the rebell against the establishment at that time (or whatever reason there was, i still dont quite get it). We were a minority when we decided to go for other alliances. Now that time has proven us to be right and Gremlins are only a shell of its former self, i would say it is justified to come back and retake the name. Of course it is not uncritical to force your former brothers off an AA, but they all have the possbility to apply and some already did.

[quote name='AirMe' timestamp='1305550554' post='2712802'] Stop lying. You have a katana at my throat right now and you know it! [/quote] You're just bitter because you fell for a plastic weapon and gave me all your money. You even offered your mother. I mean, really?