Ivan Moldavi

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281674373' post='2413931'] Sedrick was at a state of war with TENE and RoK prior to NSO accepting him. Have you forgotten the basic principles of how a protectorate works? The additional wars declared on Sedrick were a continuation of the existing wars Sedrick was engaged in. NSO choose to interject themselves in the war by accepting Sedrick as a member and then escalated it into a state of multiple alliance war by actively engaging TENE/RoK in war when Heft ordered the aid sent. [/quote] You are incorrect. Sedrick was in a state of war with TENE from what I have gathered and even that is debatable since the only provable aspect of that seems to be that TENE sent a spy mission against Sedrick, not the other way around. RoK declared after Sedrick was carrying the NSO banner. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your talking points.

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281673519' post='2413899'] yeah... still doesn't address the fact an NSO govt member's "error" was really just a slap in the face of RoK... did the ONE thing he was warned against, the ONE thing that could of made this into a war... and just went and did it, Hoo never even had the obligation to go to Heft and warn him numerous times that doing this, would be considered aiding an enemy and grounds for war, as it always has been and is general common sense... Hoo made sure it was well understood and was clear... and it was done anyway, the choice was his. [/quote] As I just stated though, didn't Hoo have an obligation, at least from a common courtesy standpoint in regards to the standard conventions of alliance politics, to inform the NSO prior to RoK declaring multiple wars on Sedrick?

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281673298' post='2413892'] Your glossing over some facts, in the first instance, your MoD asked to be attacked in their chan, as in a duel, but whatever. Heft is in fact a member of NSO government, and Heft ordered the aid to be sent to Sedrick, so it is plainly seen that Heft a high member of NSO government ordered that acts of war perpetrated against RoK. I don't see how you can get around that fact. [/quote] No, that isn't how it happened at all. Then or now. The bottom line is that RoK declared upon a member of the NSO without notification or warning to the NSO [i]at all[/i]. Regardless of anything that happened after that fact at what point did it become acceptable for an alliance to just declare multiple wars against a member of another alliance without some form of heads up? Heft asked for proof of Hoo's position after he went to him and Hoo would/could not provide it. What's up with that? That is just !@#$%* business right there. He should have had his stuff together beforehand. The only logical reason for this not occurring seems to be the desired escalation, which we have observed is likely not to happen. So RoK and friends get to beat up on the NSO while the alliance they were supposedly protecting also gets beat up. Seems like a bad plan all around, even if both sides made some errors in judgement along the way.

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1281672710' post='2413869'] Is there some way you can un-retire? [/quote] God I hope not.

[quote name='Deathistan' timestamp='1281672739' post='2413874'] As was said, Hoo let them know that sending aid to the rogue would be seen as an act of war BEFORE it was sent... this is really what makes it a slap to the face... this is NSO saying "we'll do what we want, screw you" thinking RoK wouldnt DARE touch them... proved them wrong... [/quote] Yes, please see my response to this point just a few posts ago.

[quote name='Merrie Melodies' timestamp='1281672644' post='2413868'] Ivan, as far as diplomacy is concern, it's not much different than when you made a snap decision to beat up RAD. It happens. [/quote] Actually, it is quite different. Since I notice that that is your only flimsy thread that you have been clinging to again and again I will address it. A member of RAD's government, the MoD if memory serves correctly, declared upon a member of my government after being told that such a declaration would be an act of war. In this instance, a random new member is attacked by a third party and then sent aid. No member of NSO government attacked RoK. Perhaps I missed that declaration prior to Hoo's declaration of war. Can you point it out to me?

[quote name='the masheen' timestamp='1281672028' post='2413850'] The only part I would disagree with is number 9. Hoo told Heft before NSO aided sedrick that it would be considered an act of war. NSO proceeded to aid sedrick, which they've admitted was not a good idea. There wasn't much discussion, but enough so where Heft probably knew that NSO should not have aided sedrick, at least until he further discussed the matter with Hoo. [/quote] Okay, so let's go with that. If Heft has admitted that it was an error and Heft isn't the Emperor or Dark Lord of the NSO, the former being the only one capable of declaring war and the latter being the one in charge if the former is unavailable, but still not available to do so, then at what point does Heft having aid sent to Sedrick constitute more than an error that any other two alliances would have reasonably addressed and clarified over most likely a couple of days before it got to the point of actual war? I'm just curious. It just seems odd, since everyone is claiming that escalation was not the intent, to go to war over this without some level of discussion, especially on the scale that occurred. Of course, if RoK needed that much help I guess it is a good thing those other guys were ready to roll.

I haven't been around so I don't really know what is going on. Aside from my popping in the other night and going back and forth with a few people I haven't paid this much attention, mainly because I am still retired. But, after taking a few minutes to actually read the logs I have to say I am a bit surprised at how things went down. Most people here know Heft. They know that he has been here for a long time and that he is one of the few "good" diplomats in the Cyberverse. When I read the logs in the OP and review the sequence of events I can't help to objectively (and yes, I mean that, not for or against the Order, but just as a non-combatant observer) see some glaringly obvious errors between what is being pushed as the "common" acceptance of the CB and reality. This is how I processed the sequence of events, if they are in error please correct me, as I said, I have not been paying attention: 1. Sedrick goes rogue on TENE (a practice I disagree with) 2. TENE counters against Sedrick (good, he deserved it if he was a rogue) 3. Sedrick joins NSO (not sure why this happened, I was always clear that active rogues needed to get their !@#$ together first but meh, it happened evidently) 4. RoK declares on Sedrick (I know RoK is TENE's protector but is this generally how this happens? Again, I don't know.) 5. Heft approaches Hoo to ask why RoK is attacking a NSO member (seems reasonable enough) 6. Hoo states that Sedrick attacked their protectorate and they are just supporting them (okay, not exactly the best way to go about it but still justified IMO) 7. Hoo states that attacks on Sedrick will stop if Sedrick pays reps to TENE (okay, fine, but if he is getting the crap beat out of him how is he going to have the funds to pay?) 8. Heft states that NSO will send aid to Sedrick (not my preferred response but Heft states that it was for peace very specifically, I could interpret that as this aid being meant to pay those reps) 9. Hoo states that it is an act of war and declares without discussion of the issue (really? If it was [i]any[/i] other alliance in the Cyberverse would this have happened?) 10. Heft again states that he was sending aid to Sedrick in order to secure peace (again, I can only surmise that this was intended as some form of support for the rep payment) What am I missing here?

The last time I checked I wasn't Emperor of the New Sith Order so referring to diplomatic issues from when I was leading is really reaching. Everyone knows what I think of diplomacy when it is used simply to forestall the inevitable. This incident and that one are not the same.

Anyway, it has been fun. I really did just randomly log on tonight. It is good to know I can still control the crowd even though I have no idea what is happening politically. People are so easy to manipulate. Have fun.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281333877' post='2406775'] Oh my dear Ivan, more important and "important" are not nearly the same thing. Once you enter the era of the coalition, you have to take more than a single alliance's stats into account, and in that area, under the waning days of your reign, NPO was certainly lacking. And claiming credit for the Dilber-era diplomatic success now? Surely you have better things in your reign to justify your leadership without reaching for things that didn't even happen while you were there? [/quote] Indeed, because I was just a lame duck. I didn't negotiate our opponents in the Great Patriotic War into basically drooling idiots, I didn't lead my alliance right to the gates of Hell and then see them triumphant and I sure didn't stick around after the war was over to make sure they were on good footing when the time came to retake the top spot. Oh yeah, and I disappeared after that as well. I didn't write the War Powers Act and have Dilber sign off on it and create the position of Commandante that gave me overriding authority in times of war and I didn't lead (lead from the position of figurehead and chief negotiator, others including Anthony were much better tacticians) the NPO in GWII and GWIII. No, none of that happened. It happened exactly as you say it did. The war ended and I just tucked tail and hid in a corner sucking my thumb. How do you know what did or didn't happen when I wasn't "there". I was always there. Until I left the game officially I was never not there, even if I wasn't here publicly. Anyone can vouch for that.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281333627' post='2406764'] Why would you need a FA department? NPO needed no allies in their conquests after that point. [/quote] Really? That's the best you can do? Mixing arguments that have no correlation with one another in hopes of scoring some browning points with the peanut gallery? I never stated that the NPO never needed allies. I stated that historically it made its own path and later on its allies followed suit. It never let its allies dictate its foreign policy for the most part unlike many follower alliances, such as yours.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281333580' post='2406761'] STOP CARING FOR YOUR MEMBERS COWARD! I was talking about NSO. I couldn't care less about you. [/quote] Yes, that is exactly what you should have gotten from that exchange. *rollseyes* And the NSO didn't get anything, as I mentioned at the end. We entered to defend MK and they have consistently been one of our biggest detractors every since so I fail to see what huge benefits we got out of Karma at all considering those we aligned with afterwards were actually people we were talking to beforehand. So again, what?

[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1281333441' post='2406749'] Not the ending, but the alone part was a bit mind blowing. You seem to forget that NpO (like 3 times your size) was the one we declared on. [/quote] You mean the token declaration that you intended so that you could "honor" your treaty? Yes, I am aware of that. The vast majority of your wars were fought with the NSO.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281333260' post='2406744'] Why the continuation of the isolation that lead to your defeat in GWI and which you only got out of by handing over the reigns to Dilber so he could restore NPO to a position of any real power whatsoever, of course. Oh, unless you think the in-game rankings are sorted by political power. [/quote] The in-game rankings were more important then than they are now and you know it. I resigned because I was bored with the game and what I had done at the time. The foundations for what happened with the NPO after the Great Patriotic War were already well underway prior to my resignation and Dilber taking the throne. Or are you suggesting that the FA department of the NPO was just taking a vacation during the entire rebuilding process? So again, what are you talking about? You just posted a completely incorrect assumption because you obviously aren't up on your history and then tried to validate your mistake with an even bigger one. As usual, you are out of your depth. Just run along now.

[quote name='oinkoink12' timestamp='1281332983' post='2406727'] LOL what? [/quote] You have a different definition of white peace?

[quote name='thisperson' timestamp='1281332596' post='2406704'] This sort of behavior is amnesiac. Have you already forgotten the environment endorsed by your offspring and the large number of curbstomps required to keep the hegemonic rule in place. It wasn't exactly cowardice when the entire world was plagued with a people that breathed without hope. I recall the war scares while under the Pacifican/Bi-Polar boot. No one dared stand. Cowardice. Such a funny term you use. I do not believe you understand it. And it is easy to say this now, but tell me Moldavi, are you of such courage that you would dare oppose our Hegemony? Our so called dominance now? No, why? Because you know as well as us that NSO was in the wrong in this. Now put up or shut up, to put it in eloquent terms. You are a man of action, and of few words, at least I had been led to believe so. How utterly disappointing when the legends are wrong. [/quote] First, I have no idea what you are even trying to say with this post. You lament the curbstomps of my successors and then boldly claim to be doing the same thing and ask if I am going to oppose it? In what way are you expecting me to oppose such an action? I am not a leader in any alliance. I am retired. I have a non-authoritative position in the Orders and that is it. I have voiced my concerns here and I believe I have spoken plainly enough that even you can tell where my sympathies lie. So yes, you are the new Hegemony, and yes, I would oppose you with every breath of every soldier in my army and in my alliance if I had one to command because you are wrong. You cry out when others do these atrocities and then you hitch up your wagon and carry on doing the exact same thing and wonder why no one considers you a legitimate authority. At least I did it with style.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281332623' post='2406708'] Oh, you know that's not true. You've resigned twice to get your alliances out of the untenable diplomatic positions you've placed them in with your outstanding leadership. [/quote] Really? I am fairly certain I only resigned once and that was in March and only because I chose to stick by my word, not because it was a specified term of the war. If you refer to my decision to step down from Pacifica that was several months after the Great Patriotic War and after the NPO was again #1 in the Cyberverse. So what is that second time you refer to oh wise one?

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1281332445' post='2406690'] Vintage. Cast aside micro-alliances, wherein the force necessary for an unquestioned curbstomp can be found entirely within a single alliance, and your claim loses considerable ground. NSO certainly fails to impress. Polar gets a pass thanks to its sheer audacity in Bi-Polar, but that wasn't under your administration. NPO did live up to the billing you've posted, but such was so early in the game that Pacifica's sheer numbers all but assured victory in both instances: the First Polar War and the Citrus War. Pacifica pursued no wars worth noting after that by its lonesome; even in ONOS the power of WUT was resting comfortably behind you should the rest of GUARD had intervened. That stated, I don't recall ever claiming you'd never gone one-on-one, only that you'd enjoyed coalitions just as much as the next person. [/quote] Polar was fighting alone a long time before Bi-Polar. The Pacific victory in the First Polar War was against a numerically superior opponent. The Sith fought FOK to a standstill alone and yes, did defeat a few small alliances, plus it challenged a few larger ones, they were just too cowardly to accept. Regardless, my point stands even if I can name only one such victory, even against a smaller foe, for each of the alliances, which is not simply the case. Most alliances can not make that claim. Certainly not three that were led by the same person at the time those victories occurred. So you can attempt to belittle such issues as you wish, it doesn't change the fact that such events took place historically.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281332249' post='2406670'] You specifically said "spearheaded a war campaign" without the help of allies. When did NSO ever do that, save during an affair against an alliance so overmatched they withered within days, if not hours? [/quote] Ah, so you do know that it has happened? Weird because you just said a few posts ago that you were unaware of it.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281332212' post='2406667'] Or because my alliance isn't my own private army that I should be tossing around every time I get into a pissing match with an egomaniac. I go to war when it is in the interests of my members, not to prove what a big man I am. If that warrants labeling me a coward, then you can continue doing so. At least I don't view my membership as toys to toss about for my personal amusement. [/quote] Oh well then yes, at that point we do differ. Anyone that knows me knows that everything I have ever done as a leader in any alliance has been solely for my own gratification and never for their benefit at all. Never. I wish I could grow up to be just like you.

[quote name='goldielax25' timestamp='1281331898' post='2406641'] When was this? I'm sure it was against a foe of equal strength and resiliency, as no alliance with the code of the Sith would ever lower themselves to engaging in a... curbstomp... would they? [/quote] See the post above and look up the RIA-NSO incident. Just because the other alliance was cowardly doesn't mean the NSO didn't have the resolve. I notice that you failed to mention either NPO or Polar in that magnificent analysis. Of course, we all know why that is, you either weren't around or you know I speak the truth, either way, you are out of your league at this point.

[quote name='Delta1212' timestamp='1281331876' post='2406634'] Protecting the people I've sworn to defend, my members and allies, trumps protecting my pride. If my dependents are best served by my swallowing it, that's what I'll do. Your priorities are quite obviously ordered differently. [/quote] Oh cry me a river, you and I both know that it boiled down to two alliances that were evenly matched (RIA was [i]larger[/i] than NSO at the time) and you running with your tail between your legs. Unless you are saying that your people were genuinely scared to fight a smaller alliance that story doesn't fly. And if that is what you are saying, ha.

[quote name='Mr Damsky' timestamp='1281331567' post='2406618'] You certainly benefited from being in it. [/quote] Really? Weird. Because the way I remember it, even though I went out of my way to avoid being in a main conflict I still got labelled a traitor by a lot of people in the NPO for it and lost my active membership there, which I had enjoyed for a very long time. So I am pretty certain that I personally did not benefit from Karma. Plus, the same people that wanted me dead before Karma still wanted me dead after, even if my people bleed for them. Just ask MK.

[quote name='Ardus' timestamp='1281331295' post='2406597'] Prior that NSO enjoyed the benefits of fighting in the Karma coalition. Since we're talking about all three Orders here I'll continue by reminding you of Polar's magnificent effort in gathering alliances for the Unjust War and Pacifica's long history of building power structures around itself (WUT, One Vision, Q). As you mock the Triathlon victors for achieving their goals with allies I must remind you that every order has done just the same: achieved their goals with the help of allies. Don't feel bad. Feel proud that cleaning up your messes is considered an achievement. [/quote] I never feel bad. Feeling bad implies that I might have done something wrong or made an error. I do neither. As far as the examples you list, bravo, you win a gold star. The New Pacific Order, New Polar Order and New Sith Order never spearheaded a war campaign and found victory without the help of allies...oh wait, yes, they all three did, funnily enough all three did so while under my reign. Bravo again. You guys are so good and beefing up my ego. It is good to know that even though I have done nothing in months and haven't been at the helm of a sanctioned alliance in over two years that you still care enough about what I meant to the Cyberverse to pull it out of the casket and parade it around whenever you want to talk about pride and courage. It is good to know I was such a strong example for the "little people".