Viluin

[quote name='ditchboy00' timestamp='1340037453' post='2987751'] you should probably leave. what alliance is going to want you now anyways? you clearly are afraid of war. that leaves you just the neutrals yet you attacked one of them. [/quote] You're right, I am ranked #24 in casualties in the game because I'm afraid of war. I'm assuming you've never fought for extended periods of time? It's not as cool as it sounds. After about 3 weeks it becomes a chore to log in and attack daily.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340035930' post='2987733'] [center][size=4][b][color=fuchsia][font="Comic Sans MS"]Okay, as he doesn't listen to me, is there any good person reading this and wanting to help that good fellow (Viluin) get at least a rough idea of where he is and what he can do about it? I warn you in advance: you'll likely get frustrated, but eventually you'll be happy that you did a good action. I [i]promise[/i].[/font][/color][/b][/size][/center] For now I am finished with this madness: unless Viluin gets some solid advice we're definitely going nowhere. [i](I also have to go off line etc.)[/i] [/quote] I have a pretty clear view of the situation. 9 months of reps, war until my nation is spent, or deletion. Three terrible options, but you refuse to give me any others. [quote name='mompson' timestamp='1340036076' post='2987735'] Actually you said you wouldn't stop until your warchest was gone. Does this jog your memory? [14:12] <Viluin> I can't lose, my warchest will last longer than the game [/quote] You threatened to "ZI" me, when I told you I can't really be ZI'd because of all my money, you said you'd keep going until the money's gone.

[quote name='Commonwealth of John' timestamp='1340035223' post='2987716'] He's posting here simply for attention. You don't want him in your alliance. [/quote] I'm posting here because I raided three nations, and I'm now chased into paying gargantuan reps/endless war/deletion. I thought such practices were frowned upon. [quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340035240' post='2987717'] Perma ZI is when someone keeps you at ZI no matter what you say, want, implore, propose etc. When the other party prefers to continue to fight you instead of accepting the very light terms (if any) that evidently you think you deserve - and that you don't even bother to propose, BTW - that's no perma ZI. That's just that you're at war. [/quote] So it's not perma-ZI, but you will attack me until I have nothing left, which will take a long, long time (probably over a year). For all intents and purposes, that is perma-ZI.

[quote name='Alfred von Tirpitz' timestamp='1340034763' post='2987707'] No, he is saying it is not 9 months, instead it is till such time as they are satisfied you are not a threat anymore. [/quote] That's not what he said. He said they will attack me until I can't hurt them anymore. Big difference. [quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340034857' post='2987709'] I do realize it, and I am not contradicting myself: If you're trying to convince me that talking with you is pointless, you're doing a good job. [b][i]Go get some advice.[/i][/b] [/quote] So, you admit you will attack me for well over 9 months. How is that not basically a perma ZI sentence and by what logic is that appropriate punishment for two raids?

[quote name='Biff Webster' timestamp='1340034592' post='2987704'] You removed your own capability to do harm after three days. You're not scaring anyone. [/quote] Excellent, I guess that means GPA will let me go then?

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340034332' post='2987698'] Not 9 months, but for as much as it's necessary to remove your capability to do harm. Since we can't take your word, we have to rely on hard facts, sorry. Also, lest I forget: [i]go get some advice, please[/i]. [/quote] You realize it would take a lot longer than 9 months to "remove my capability to do harm"? You're contradicting yourself.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340033897' post='2987692'] In fact there's no pretension: it isn't. Sure you don't expect that we now take your word for it, do you? I prefer to make sure of that, thanks. (Go get some advice, [i]please[/i].) [/quote] You prefer to make sure I won't attack you again, by attacking me for 9 months? What makes you think [b]I[/b] would stop attacking [b]you[/b] after that kind of punishment? Of course I wouldn't, after 9 months (if I don't delete) I would be ready to fight to the death, my nation would be too damaged to try making a comeback in this dying world. That's why I say such a long war is practically eternal. You are [i]creating[/i] the threat, not neutralizing it.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340033443' post='2987683'] Viluin, until you stop inventing things out of thin air this situation will continue to be tough on you. There's no talk of eternal war here. You accepted "unacceptable" reps and you then immediately cheated on them, proving that you were lying to us about your intentions since the very first moment. By attacking us you also proved that you're a threat. We're going to deal with you just like it's reasonable to deal with unreliable threats: putting you down. None of this implies "eternal war", as we'll bring you to a point at which we'll be satisfied of the job and we won't consider you a threat anymore. Of course, it will be quite a long affair: likely longer than the 3 or 6 or 9 months you abhorred so much (and you also will come out in a worse shape too). I am even sympathetic with you, but not to the point of solving for you the problems you worked so much to create for yourself (I think you can see how asking that from me would really be too much!) For the love of Admin, as you clearly can't handle this situation, [i]go get some wise advice[/i] (not from some "lulzy" individual/alliance). [/quote] NpO told me they wouldn't stop until my warchest was gone. Besides, 9+ months of war is practically forever anyway, don't pretend that it isn't. If I wanted to spend time fighting you, I would. You claim I'm a threat, but it's clear that I simply can't be bothered fighting you. So why would I attack you again? Nonsense.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340032000' post='2987664'] Again, it wasn't 9 months. It was 6 months money-only or 3 months money+tech. Plus what you had agreed on with the NpO. The idea is that you pay for your aggression so that, the next time, you think twice before attacking us again. We don't want to have to waste time with you every couple of months, thanks. I remind you that you involved the NpO to try get some leverage against us. If you go rogue on 15 alliances and each asks you to spend one month paying reps, are they evil because they keep you down for 15 months, or are you dumb for having gone rogue on 15 alliances expecting to be then left go easily? I'll be honest: I don't really get the fascination with going rogue on random nations. There are a lot of conflicts every now and then, and raiders all around: one looking for "fun" can very easily pull a NEW, or a Methrage, there's no need to go annoy people that are minding their own business, and it's silly to then claim that there need not to be consequences. If you really have to go the rogue route, anyway, at least have the decency to plan it ahead, to know what you're doing, to target someone you really want to fight, to not surrender [i]after three days[/i] to then screw up in every other possible way, eventually getting on the forums to cry about the evil of having to face consequences for what you did. I'll be sad if you leave, Viluin: not that I enjoy very much how you play, but you're a fellow player. That doesn't anyway mean that I'll leave you do whatever you want without doing my part in playing my "role" as it's meant to. Besides, months are not really much in a slow paced game like CN, there was no reason for you to think that being a POW until November had to be that terrible (you could have saved a lot on bills, getting an even bigger treasury, etc.) Now of course you proved me that your word is void, thus things are going to be tougher. [/quote] It's 6 months to you, and 3 months to NpO. That's 9 months of being out of the game, a game that may only have a year of life left in it. That's simply not gonna work. It can be paid in 6 months, but then I lose most of my tech, in which case I might as well just stay at war because tech means everything (I have more money than I can ever spend). You offered unacceptable reps, so now I have to make a choice between eternal war or deletion. It's a tough one, but I've been at war for 3 months straight before, and I know how boring and time consuming it becomes (especially if I have to find trades all the time), so I'm leaning towards deletion. [quote name='hullean' timestamp='1340032508' post='2987674'] One of the main considerations that went into the price was his constant attitude of trying to threaten his way out of the mess he caused. In the end he agreed to pay his reps, [b]by the time he had gotten around to finishing off GPA's reps it would probably have been a case of we were satisfied and I would have let him not pay anything.[/b] If you go rogue and then try to threaten your way into peace, I wouldn't let that go lightly hence the $90mil and tech. [/quote] Oh of course, that's really easy to say now. Most of the threats came after you mentioned your ridiculous reps. The amount of reps you demanded was one of the first things we spoke about, in fact I queried you for that purpose.

[quote name='Diego18' timestamp='1340031134' post='2987652'] What was the point of saving that money for years if you get scared by a little war. Just keep the war. It wont last more than 1 month before they stop attacking you [/quote] You're joking, right? After one month of nuclear war my nation will be so deep in the pit (tech lost), there's no point in trying to rebuild. They may stop, but only when my NS is too low for their nuclear nations to declare on me. Big help that is. And I'd still remain sanctioned on every team. At this stage of the game, a month is past the point of no return.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340030355' post='2987643'] Other facts: • Viluin attacked us on May 28th, claiming that he could fight until 2014 and that we'd better let him go, "or else". He surrendered on June, 1st. He broke his terms on June, 3rd. • A lot of the "peace talks" can be seen by anyone with a diplomatic mask on the GPA board: [url=http://forums.cn-gpa.com/showthread.php?tid=48241]link[/url]. [/quote] I [i]can[/i] fight until 2014, which I tried to use as an argument to get peace. I've just come to realize I don't want to, especially when my trades fell apart. It's not worth all the frustration. Not to mention 9 months of reps for 3 days of war is unprecedented in this game. And they say NPO had it rough after Karma, yeah right.

[quote name='jerdge' timestamp='1340028401' post='2987625'] It's what he could have paid in six months if he had elected to go with monetary reps only. He could have also converted half of it in tech (at the very generous - I believe - conversion rate of $4,500,000 for 50 tech), and have it paid in three months (90 days). [/quote] Yes, I'm going to send away all my hard earned tech only to find CN at the brink of death when I'm done paying reps. Deletion is a better option, at least then I don't have to spend months as a lap dog sending away free stuff to people I don't like. [quote name='Schattenmann' timestamp='1340028318' post='2987624'] I'd be interested to hear what beside 2 GAs went into Polaris' considerations. You made an agreement with GPA and then you decided to change your mind and run; that only made things more difficult. [/quote] As far as I know, the NpO nation I attacked hadn't even logged in yet when they demanded those reps, so there was no damage report. They demanded that number because they could. I told them I hardly did anything, but they didn't care. Later, the NpO nation woke up and attacked me and then I resumed my attacks as well. There were two days when I could've nuked, but didn't.

[quote name='Franz Ferdinand' timestamp='1340027717' post='2987616'] Just form an alliance and declare war on the Green Protection Agency. Everything else will resolve itself from there. [/quote] I doubt people would fight alongside me. It wouldn't solve anything.

[quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1340027439' post='2987613'] What and you expected to just get away with paying battle damages? are you that stupid? they terms are for punitive costs also. Quit then you big cry baby, why come on here posting at all with the whinge fest. You asked for advice we gave you it. Do as you wish. [/quote] If the situation doesn't improve soon, I will quit, yes. Peace mode isn't really an option either cause I'm losing boatloads of money every day.

[quote name='Stonewall Jaxon' timestamp='1340027002' post='2987605'] What the hell do you expect? [i]You[/i] made the decision to go to war. You don't get to piss and moan and say it's a waste of your time. If your time was so valuable you wouldn't have a nation that took years and a hell of a lot of time to build. Get off your high horse, you're not too good for anything. All you posted this topic for was the attention anyway, so if you're just going to look down your nose at everyone by saying you don't have time for the game (the whole "we don't take this seriously" bit is used by everyone in this game, nobody's ego will let them believe they're the same as everyone else here. It's always so transparent it's sad), then you should have just walked out the door already. Drop the act. [/quote] I didn't raid those alliances expecting eternal war or eternal reps. Especially not considering the damage that was done. I performed no attacks on the NpO nation for two days after the initial strike, then I heard they want 2000 tech. I even offered peace to one of the vulnerable GPA nations I attacked, he had no warchest and I let him peace out before nukes were fired. The other guy I attacked had more money than I do, it's a mosquito bite to him. [quote name='Hereno' timestamp='1340027019' post='2987606'] http://www.cybernations.net/nation_drill_display.asp?Nation_ID=130747&Extended=0 ROFL You're sitting in peace mode negotiating, no wonder you're getting such high offers for reps. [/quote] I was at war during the negotiations. When it became clear that the situation was impossible to resolve, I fled to peace mode to think about what to do next.

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1340026693' post='2987600'] So then, make them work for their money. With 6 Billion you could nuke turret them for months. Knowing GPA they will probably pay you to go away after awhile. [/quote] Why would they want me to go away? They have literally nothing else to do in this game. And what's the fun in being a nuke turret against a neutral alliance for months? What a waste of time and resources.

[quote name='Aeros' timestamp='1340026465' post='2987596'] You're going about this the wrong way dude. Rather then whining, you should create your own one man alliance, post a DoE in the Alliance announcements and declare war on your foes in the name of some deity or ideal. With 6 Billion you can wage war for months and then piggy back on a peace treaty when your enemies get into a war with their enemies. http://cybernations.wikia.com/wiki/OP-GOD_War [/quote] And when is the GPA going to be involved in a war? Yeah, exactly. Maybe when the game shuts down.

It's not the size of the reps that is the issue, but the fact that it would take around 9 months or more to pay them off. That's 9 months as a POW - I'd rather quit. Simple. [quote name='Hiro Nakara' timestamp='1340024952' post='2987575'] Sell down and wage war on their lower tiers until your nation runs out of cash.[/quote] I can think of better ways to spend my time.. There is no fun involved in such a long war, all by yourself (been there before). I'm a perfectionist and it'd become too much of a time sink in my life. I can't just log in with no trades, fire some nukes and forget about it for the rest of the day. That would be worse than simply deleting. [quote]90 million seems fair. [/quote] $90 million and 2000(!) tech straight from my coffers for two cruise missiles and two ground attacks?

Recently, I performed a few rogue attacks for a personal reason, and boredom. Unfortunately, things grew a little out of control, and I find myself in a troubling situation. Two alliances in the game, the GPA and NpO, don't seem to be very forgiving. After a few days of war I decided to probe for peace terms. The GPA wants $486 million in reps, the NpO wants $90 million and 2000 tech in reps, and I had only performed two ground attacks and 2 cruise missiles on the NpO at that point. This would obviously take an agonizingly long time to pay off, there is no way anyone could agree to this in CN's final days. Unfortunately there's no middle ground, such as "two rounds of war and we're done", it's either huge reps or eternal war until my nation is completely depleted. Talking to my enemies is pointless, they will not budge and one of them (I will not say which) has taken this opportunity to display outright thuggish behavior in their negotiations with me. I have been sanctioned on most (important) teams and none of them will lift the sanction despite me explaining the situation. I had a rogue trade circle, but it fell apart and I probably won't find a new one, which means I have to mess around with unreliable random trades. Not looking forward to that, especially not while fighting endless wars. The only reason why I'm still around is because I'm having a hard time pulling the trigger after 5 years. But all of my options suck majorly, so why shouldn't I? What would you do? PS: I have 6 billion dollars, but it seems like a waste of time to fight a solo war for that long.

Looking for a circle. Preferably 7BR with fish/wheat, but I will consider any circle. The trades with me will have to be secret, but -1 happiness is a tiny penalty and I will stay with your circle for a long, long time. My current resources are gold/rubber but I can switch them immediately. Please PM me if you have a spot.

EDIT: Nevermind, stupid forum rules.

[quote name='mompson' timestamp='1339734704' post='2984368'] CNB summed up my opinion on this pretty well. It's all about Risk/Reward. If it was that you couldn't send offers or continue offers, there'd be no point in doing secret trades at all because secret or no secret, your trades are gone. If secret trades are completely unaffected then you could just resend all of your offers as secret upon being sanctioned and sanctioning would mean nothing. There's got to be a middle ground. [/quote] ..your trade partners can move to No Team and send you secret trade offers anyway. It's just another annoying step. Now I have to tell all my trade partners to do this, and because they will all lose their team happiness bonuses, the entire trade circle needs to cancel on each other and resend trade offers after they've begun trading with me. It's super frustrating and pointless for everyone, that's why I thought it was a bug (also because you can tick the secret box on the trade screen). The penalty for secret trades is and always has been the lack of a happiness bonus, it doesn't mean "nothing".

But why would a sanction prevent a *secret* trade agreement from being formed? Two nations either trade or they don't, initiating a trade agreement should be no different from continuing one as long as it's in secret. Sanctions don't remove secret trades, but they block secret trade offers, which makes no sense to me. I don't understand why this would be working as intended. A secret trade is invisible to all others including team senators, there is no reason why a sanction should prevent a secret trade from being formed.

If you've been sanctioned on a certain team, you can't even send secret trade offers to members of that team. This makes it almost impossible to re-establish any (secret) trades once you've been sanctioned on many teams. Not sure if it's a bug but I think it is, the current situation is weird because secret trades exist to avoid sanctions.

Completely uncapped aid would've been awesome if it had been like that from the start. Removing the cap now would greatly screw up the balance in the game.